22:53:21 RRSAgent has joined #pwg 22:53:21 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-pwg-irc 22:53:22 rrsagent, set log public 22:53:22 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 22:53:22 Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F in Fukuoka — Second day 22:53:22 Date: 2019-09-17 22:53:22 Agenda: http://tinyurl.com/y366u6u8 22:53:23 Regrets+ ivan 22:53:23 Chair: wendy, garth 23:11:05 dauwhe has joined #pwg 23:13:37 CharlesL has joined #pwg 23:13:55 CharlesL1 has joined #pwg 23:17:39 CharlesL1 has left #pwg 23:32:11 ivan has joined #pwg 23:40:18 skk has joined #pwg 23:40:46 dauwhe has joined #pwg 23:44:24 shu has joined #pwg 23:49:14 Rachel has joined #pwg 23:52:58 gpellegrino has joined #pwg 23:54:34 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pwg 23:55:24 present+ 23:56:13 mattg has joined #pwg 00:01:01 Jemma has joined #pwg 00:01:17 present+ Jemma 00:01:18 achraf has joined #pwg 00:01:51 laudrain has joined #pwg 00:02:01 present+ 00:02:30 Ralph has joined #pwg 00:02:30 jamesn has joined #pwg 00:02:33 joanie has joined #pwg 00:02:48 JunGamo has joined #pwg 00:02:49 present+ 00:02:58 CharlesL has joined #pwg 00:03:02 marisa has joined #pwg 00:03:02 present+ 00:03:05 dsinger has joined #pwg 00:03:09 present+ 00:03:11 wendyreid has joined #pwg 00:03:13 present+ 00:03:25 toshiakikoike has joined #pwg 00:03:26 romain has joined #pwg 00:03:26 present+ 00:03:38 present+ 00:03:40 Avneesh has joined #pwg 00:03:41 rrsagent, the meeting spans midnight 00:03:41 I'm logging. I don't understand 'the meeting spans midnight', wendyreid. Try /msg RRSAgent help 00:03:43 present+ 00:03:48 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 00:03:58 ZoeBijl has joined #pwg 00:04:14 Meeting: Publishing Working Group F2F Day 2 00:04:22 Chair: wendyreid 00:04:22 present+ 00:04:23 shu has joined #pwg 00:04:25 present+ 00:04:29 present+ 00:04:33 scribe+ 00:04:36 Date: 2019-09-17 00:04:46 George has joined #pwg 00:04:51 Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit# 00:05:29 https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/994278485 00:05:30 present+ GeorgeK 00:05:41 Yanni has joined #pwg 00:05:42 present+ 00:05:46 present+ 00:05:46 present+ MattG 00:05:52 present+ 00:06:01 topic: ARIA WG meeting 00:06:05 Ariel has joined #pwg 00:06:18 Wendy: welcome ARIA friends! 00:06:43 JoanieDiggs: myself and James Nurtham 00:06:53 ... you have a DPUB ARIA 2.0 deliverable in your charter 00:07:04 ... we're wondering about this 00:07:05 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10 00:07:25 ... Aaron Leventhal (Google) filed this ^^ issue 00:07:29 mck has joined #pwg 00:07:31 laurent has joined #pwg 00:07:31 ... running headers on footers 00:07:39 ... a JAWS developer thinks this is a good idea 00:07:49 .. the ARIA WG also thinks this is a good idea 00:07:55 ... but the ARIA WG doesn't own this spec 00:07:58 present+ Matt-King 00:08:07 Wendy: Pub WG isn't currently working on dpub-aria 2.0 00:08:21 ... Tzviya knows more about this 00:08:35 duga has joined #pwg 00:08:35 MattG: we had started proposing that we'd do a 2.0 00:08:42 present+ 00:08:58 ... we've been working on the larger issue of semantics in publishing 00:09:08 ... early in this period we decided to scale back 00:09:18 ... and do a dpub-aria 1.1 to fix some of the issues in 1.0 00:09:29 ... focussing on owned elements and parent semantics 00:09:51 jroque has joined #pwg 00:09:51 ... we didn't want to add a lot more semantics before there is more implementation in AT 00:10:02 ... when Aaron proposed this I did understand his use case 00:10:07 ... I agree it would be useful 00:10:18 ReinaldoFerraz has joined #pwg 00:10:21 ... we've been consumed with Web Publications and Manifest 00:10:32 ... so we haven't reconvened the dpub-aria TF 00:10:48 ... I don't know if the group will still prefer to focus on a 1.1 rather than 2.0 00:10:49 q+ 00:10:52 q+ 00:10:53 q+ 00:10:56 ... it's probably time to reconvene that TF 00:11:02 ack dauwhe 00:11:20 dauwhe: how are running headers and footers expressed in markup? 00:11:26 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 00:11:29 q+ 00:11:36 present+ 00:11:48 ... there are largely unimplemented CSS specs where this doesn't appear in markup so there's no place to attach a role 00:11:53 Joanie: maybe 00:12:08 ttps://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10 00:12:10 ... would you comment in the issue with that question, so Aaron can answer? 00:12:11 ack Avneesh 00:12:19 Avneesh: +1 to what Matt said 00:12:25 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10 00:12:42 ... we're looking for AT implementations before doing a lot more work 00:12:55 q+ To discuss the implementation/support in screen readers 00:13:04 ... one question was whether page numbering was being mixed with running headers/footers 00:13:12 present+ 00:13:21 ... this has to be resolved in more discussion; there's not consensus yet 00:13:40 q- Avneesh said everything I wanted to 00:13:42 ... another question: are there threats to this attribute? we need identities for extended descriptions 00:13:44 q- 00:13:54 Joanie: we're discussing this 1:30 to 2:30 today 00:14:12 ack romain 00:14:37 ack joanie 00:14:37 joanie, you wanted to discuss the implementation/support in screen readers 00:14:39 Romain: we also wanted to take a fresh look at ARIA in HTML before taking up dpub-aria again 00:14:54 Joanie: on wanting to see more implementations, I'm curious 00:15:17 ... the way the mappings were done, many were done to landmarks and they work automatically in AT that does landmark navigation 00:15:31 ... so there is already support for roles that map to links, list items, etc. 00:15:38 r12a_ has joined #pwg 00:15:46 ... the goal is to make ARIA work automatically in platforms 00:15:50 q? 00:15:51 q? 00:15:51 q? 00:15:54 q+ 00:16:39 present+ 00:16:43 Avneesh: aria-role=doctitle -- screen readers should know this is the title and should say "Title" then read the title 00:16:48 Joanie: are you filing issues? 00:16:51 Avneesh: yes 00:17:08 Joanie: because the word "title" isn't spoken, are you saying this isn't implemented? 00:17:26 MattKing: we don't tell AT what exactly to do 00:17:41 ... but I am working on a project to try to clearly define some level of expectations for screen readers 00:17:53 ... but this still won't define what word to use 00:18:12 ... if a screen reader uses the word "title" instead of "heading" consistently, that would be fine 00:18:21 ... its users become accustomed to that 00:18:33 ... does the spec have to say the word must be "title"? 00:18:46 Avneesh: we can make some recommendations to screen readers 00:19:02 q? 00:19:11 ... the purpose of the roles is to help the AT describe what sort of material it is reading 00:19:23 q+ 00:19:25 MattG: there's two parts to implementation issues 00:19:27 ack mattg 00:19:43 ... some bugs; e.g. in doc cover 00:20:03 ... on the publishing side we also want to understand what seantics are the most useful 00:20:20 ... what semantics actually improve reading ommprehension 00:20:22 q+ 00:20:33 ... what do we expect from the semantics? 00:20:34 q- 00:20:46 ... what publishers might want for internal workflows vs. what is useful for AT 00:20:52 ack laudrain 00:21:03 Luc: as a publisher we rely on structure 00:21:15 ... we know the structure of the document and can derive roles from the structure 00:21:21 thanks for clarifying the meaning of "lack of implementation", Matt. 00:21:31 ... in the EPUB world we had the issue that epub-type was only structural 00:21:45 ... with dpub-aria we can implement more structure 00:21:56 ... we know there are still needs for AT 00:22:02 q? 00:22:06 +1 to Matt's point that it is critical to understand what is useful to end users of assistive technologies. 00:22:06 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1044 00:22:21 q+ 00:22:21 Joanie: we weren't sure of your plans 00:22:25 .. we do recognize there are issues 00:22:35 ... but we do see a use case for what Aaron has cited 00:22:42 ... we see decorative things appear over and over again 00:22:59 ... so we're toying a new ARIA feature to mark something as repeated content 00:23:00 q- 00:23:15 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/16 00:23:21 ... the ARIA issue ^^ mentions some DPUB-related use cases and I've also filed them in your repo 00:23:33 ... for the next time you update your spec 00:23:56 ... if the content is elsewhere; e.g. a pull quote, a screen reader probably should not repeat it 00:24:12 ... when proofreading a document you do probably want to hear the pull quote again 00:24:19 ... but not in general 00:24:43 Joanie: if you do decide to work on running headers, these would map to this hypothetical repeated content issue 00:24:51 ... we have a broader need to address this 00:25:02 ... and we should come back to this if you update dpub-aria 00:25:17 JamesN: we've also been working on an extenstion to ARIA: aria-annotations 00:25:22 ... not yet at FPWD 00:25:33 ... still early, to solve a limited Google DOcs annotation use case 00:25:37 https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/ 00:25:45 q+ 00:25:50 ... not ready to discuss here in detail 00:26:06 bigbluehat: this picks up ARAI details to point to annotations in content 00:26:14 s/ARAI/ARIA 00:26:22 ... we've tried to match Web Annotation terminology; "bodies" are the things annotations point to 00:26:27 ... and call out the purpose of the annotation 00:26:38 ... so AT can distinguish between commentary and descriptive content 00:26:42 https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/#roles 00:26:43 ... see section 3.2.1 00:26:54 ... many of these are informed by Google Docs use cases 00:27:23 ... in 4.1 there's a mapping from existing Web Annotation purpose/motivation terminology to these new role vocabulary additions 00:27:31 ack CharlesL 00:28:10 CharlesL: for conformance certification for EPUBS, we're finding dpub-aria roles in books from some large publishers 00:28:15 ... the data is getting out there 00:28:28 ... we need now a richer experience for screen reader users 00:28:32 q+ 00:28:44 ... so we should talk with the AT developers to expose this 00:28:58 ack romain 00:29:30 Romain: the issue about the context roles should be remembered: some rules conflict with the ARIA roles 00:29:49 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/15 00:29:50 ... some markup is broken as a result 00:30:03 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/748 00:30:15 ... there's both a dpub and an ARIA issue (#15 and #748) 00:30:30 JamesN: yeah; not easy to solve with what we have today 00:30:35 Romain: maybe some extension hooks 00:30:48 JamesN: yes; it would be very useful to have a way to handle this 00:30:57 Joanie: we'll figure something out and get back to you 00:30:57 q? 00:30:59 q+ 00:31:03 ... thanks for the reminder 00:31:04 ack bigbluehat 00:31:28 bigbluehat: should we work on dpub-aria 2.0 in the remaining term of our charter? 00:31:39 q+ 00:31:57 Wendy: we should probably look into this 00:32:09 q+ 00:32:13 ... I'll bring it up in the next chairs' call when Tzviya is back 00:32:14 q+ 00:32:26 bigbluehat: let's keep communication lines open 00:32:43 ack laudrain 00:32:47 Joanie: yes 00:32:47 bkardell_ has joined #pwg 00:32:51 q- 00:32:57 JuanCorona has joined #pwg 00:33:09 Luc: it's very important as we're setting our tooling for accessible ebooks 00:33:19 ... we need the specs to be stabilized 00:33:39 rkuroda has joined #pwg 00:33:44 ... we are in a new era of publishers producing all new titles in accessible EPUB3 00:33:52 q+ to make humble suggestion 00:34:01 ... this is also a goal of the European Accessibility Act 00:34:03 ack George 00:34:12 George: having the additional semantics is really, really good 00:34:26 ... knowing that an H1 is a Chapter or a Glossary is terrific 00:34:48 ... other functionality such as aria-details pointing to an element and being able to navigate there would be really terrific also 00:35:07 ... the additional concept of an ability activate/move/link-to the element that aria-details points to 00:35:12 ack joanie 00:35:13 joanie, you wanted to make humble suggestion 00:35:15 mck_ has joined #pwg 00:35:25 ... my screen reader says "it has details" but you can't do anything with it 00:35:47 Jonie: right now a dpub-aria 1.1 seems quite reasonable 00:35:57 ... if you don't have enough for a 2.0 00:36:03 ... right now you're blocked on us 00:36:10 ... you poined out #748 00:36:27 ... we'll try to prioritize the issues that block you from doing a 1.1 00:36:39 Wendy: thank you for bringing this again to our attention 00:36:48 s/poined/pointed 00:38:33 topic: MathML 00:38:33 https://bkardell.com/blog/Beyond.html 00:38:41 https://mathml.igalia.com/faq/ 00:38:50 brian: I brought some links 00:40:29 s/brian/bkardell_/ 00:41:02 ... I wanted to talk to you as you've faced difficulty getting things into browsers 00:41:24 ... this isn't necessarily political; browsers have a business too 00:41:34 ... [summarized on slides] 00:41:55 ... igalia was able to implement css-grid because things were open 00:42:03 ... we're working on MathML 00:42:08 for remote attendees, Brian is showing us this slide deck: http://slides.com/briankardell/deck-22 00:42:14 ... because we think this is the right thing to do 00:42:25 ... the Web was created in order to share research 00:42:38 Yanni has joined #pwg 00:42:46 ... MathML layout is hard 00:42:50 ... MathML layout is text 00:42:57 ... MathML layout deserves to be solved 00:43:14 ... only Chrome lacks MathML support 00:43:30 ... if we land support in Chromium, this pretty much solves the problem 00:43:41 ... igalia is actively working on this 00:43:57 joanie has left #pwg 00:44:00 ... we have what we think is a very achievable goal of 2020 00:44:07 mck_ has joined #pwg 00:44:13 s/ of / of August / 00:44:58 ... we're trying to fund this via a group of people with a common interest 00:45:20 ... we have a grant from NISO for this year and from APS physics 00:45:39 ... we're finalizing some stuff with Pearson 00:45:53 ... see our FAQ 00:46:04 q+ 00:46:13 ... you're welcome to contribute code 00:46:26 ... and download our linux distro and file bugs 00:46:51 ... we're also working on normalizing the MathML spec 00:47:08 ... we have just about completing the normalization of the DOM in all three browser engines 00:47:57 q+ 00:48:01 ... we're working on completing the required funding for 2019 00:48:25 ack CharlesL 00:48:27 https://mathml.igalia.com/faq/ 00:48:46 CharlesL: what is the relationship to the new Microsoft browser? 00:48:53 BrianK: they'd get it for free 00:48:56 q+ 00:49:01 ... as would all the other chromium-based browsers 00:49:04 ack dauwhe 00:49:05 ... which is a lot of them 00:49:14 ... as well as embedded systems 00:49:30 dauwhe: you are understated, Brian 00:49:36 ... this is a revolution in how we could work 00:49:47 ... it does place a lot of demands on us 00:49:56 ... historically we've been beggars 00:50:14 ... this presents the possibility of having a lot more control over our own fate, if we're willing to make business investements 00:50:22 q+ 00:50:38 ... there's a way to get implementations into browsers that doesn't require convincing the browser developers that it will make money for them 00:50:51 Brian: it's a compelling idea to think about how to do this together 00:50:55 ... we have common needs 00:51:02 ... this is W3C; we work together as a Commons 00:51:17 ... taking some ownership of this Commons and working together in this way could be really positive 00:51:26 dauwhe: there's more than just writing a spec 00:51:29 q+ 00:51:33 ack laurent 00:51:39 ... writing the spec is just part of the journey 00:51:45 Laurent: this is very exciting for us 00:51:56 ... EDRLab is an open-source development organization 00:52:09 ... we will happily use a native implementation 00:52:10 mck__ has joined #pwg 00:52:24 ... do you have any recommendations for the publishing industry on presentation MathML vs content MathML? 00:52:30 Brian: we do have a recommendation on that 00:53:02 ... MathML is an example of a specification that has a lot of theory that didn't get a lot of implementation 00:53:20 ... it defines 580 elements 00:53:21 kaleeg has joined #pwg 00:53:34 ... no browser ever implemented anything close to that number 00:53:55 ... we've done research on what are the commonly-implemented elements 00:54:02 ... we've found about 20 elements 00:54:08 ... all presentation MathML 00:54:28 ... we have 1800 WPT tests 00:54:43 ... chromium is passing about 60-70% 00:54:53 q? 00:54:58 ... we're filing bugs and seeing advancement 00:55:09 ack CharlesL 00:55:17 q+ 00:55:26 ... we expect to see 400-500 new passes in webkit soon too 00:55:31 MathML Core current implementation report: https://mathml-refresh.github.io/mathml-core/implementation-report.html 00:55:50 CharlesL: MathML in chromium is crucial to textbooks 00:56:13 ... how is the MathML Refresh CG going to affect your development? 00:56:16 s/chromium is passing/WebKit is passing/ 00:56:24 ... as they try to sreamline MathML 00:56:33 BrianK: we're implementing MathML core 00:56:47 ... the streamlined MathML 00:56:59 ... we're working with the CG 00:57:11 q- 00:57:45 ... being more rigorous in the spec 00:58:08 ... there's no IDL for MathML, if you can believe it! 00:58:13 ... we're modernizing this 00:59:32 ... I think it's compelling to have a modern DOM that can fit into the modern world 01:00:08 bobbytung has joined #pwg 01:00:08 ... [with the streamlined spec] you can use shadow DOM 01:00:26 ack laudrain 01:00:53 q+ 01:00:54 Luc: the Publishing Business Group can talk about this project 01:01:12 ... we've funded the ePubCheck work 01:01:22 ... perhaps we can look into supporting this 01:01:30 q+ 01:01:45 q+ 01:02:00 ack bigbluehat 01:02:07 bigbluehat: thanks for coming 01:02:18 ... John Wiley and Sons ships a lot of math 01:02:37 Brian: there's been a lot of good work in MathJax 01:02:57 ... we'd like to take some of the further work and learn from MathJax 01:03:01 ack dauwhe 01:03:02 ... e.g. interactive math 01:03:23 dauwhe: can we sponsor individual elements? :) 01:03:23 ack laurent 01:03:26 01:03:53 Laurent: when you add the code to chromium, how can you be sure Chrome will pick it up? 01:05:04 BrianK: I don't think the intent of the fork was to kill MathML 01:06:12 ... they wanted to change the architecture to improve performance and dropping the initial implementation of MathML was a side-effect 01:07:44 q? 01:08:25 q+ 01:09:13 ack CharlesL 01:09:37 CharlesL: I've heard some publishers say they can't put a lot of math in an EPUB because MathJax takes too long to render it 01:09:44 Brian: yes, and this will really help with that proble 01:09:49 s/ble/blem 01:10:06 Wendy: are these publishers inlcuding MathJax or relying on the reading system? 01:10:16 CharlesL: relying on the RS 01:10:38 q+ 01:10:39 Brian: [shows a demo of rapid DOM updates] 01:10:49 ... this demo is slowed down so you can see it! 01:11:10 ... [demos reflowing math, responsive adjustments to the size] 01:11:40 ... here's a Custom Element that renders LaTeX 01:12:01 Wendy: RS don't have lots of memory 01:12:12 ... how well will this work in those? 01:12:24 ... have you tested those scenarios? 01:12:32 q+ 01:12:34 Brian: it should work as well as anything else in CSS that does text layout 01:12:36 ack romain 01:13:21 Romain: I'm interested in your collaboration with ARIA 01:13:26 mck has left #pwg 01:13:36 ack laudrain 01:13:50 Brian: yes; we think there's good work there that we hope to evolve toward 01:14:17 Luc: any idea what Amazon might do? 01:14:35 q+ 01:14:42 Brian: I spoke with the Amazon participants in CSS WG in June, don't have answers yet 01:15:18 dauwhe: it's possible that having Chrome support in the pipeline will help 01:15:43 ack duga 01:16:14 q+ 01:16:29 Brady: caution that it will still take years for support to appear in RS once it's in chromium 01:17:19