IRC log of me on 2019-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:49 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-irc
00:02:03 [cpn]
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00:02:10 [kaz]
Meeting: Media and Entertainment IG f2f meeting at TPAC 2019 in Fukuoka
00:02:18 [koizuka]
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Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face_to_face_meeting_during_TPAC_2019#Agenda_Monday_16_September_2019
00:05:18 [kaz]
cpn: welcome and let's get started
00:05:25 [koizuka]
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... this is a one-day meeting today
00:05:37 [kaz]
... starting with the general view about the MEIG
00:05:44 [kaz]
... [W3C Code of Ethics]
00:06:03 [kaz]
i/cpn:/Welcome and introduction/
00:06:20 [kaz]
... [Media&Entertainment IG: Mission]
00:06:48 [kaz]
... apply Web technology in general to media services
00:06:50 [nr]
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... new use cases/requirements to drive the discussion
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... [History of Major Initiatives]
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... 1. 2011-2014: HTML5 Media Pipeline
00:08:03 [kaz]
... 2. 2011-2017: Adaptive streaming & content protection
00:08:08 [suzuki]
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... 3. 2017-2019: Media Web App Platform
00:08:37 [kaz]
... [Charter]
00:08:46 [kaz]
... scope covers almost everything
00:08:52 [kaz]
... end-to-end pipeline
00:09:09 [kaz]
... continuous experience
00:09:12 [hfuji]
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... increasing interactive media
00:09:28 [kaz]
... including games
00:10:11 [kaz]
... [Charter (cont.)]
00:10:14 [kaz]
... Tasks
00:10:23 [kaz]
... identify requirements
00:10:32 [kaz]
... incubation of technical
00:10:42 [lin_li]
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00:10:46 [kaz]
... review media-related deliverables
00:11:06 [kaz]
... coordinate with other media-related groups, e.g., MPEG, HbbTV, ...
00:11:20 [ak]
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00:11:37 [kaz]
... internationalization, accessibility, etc., are very important
00:11:41 [kaz]
... [Work Flow]
00:12:08 [kaz]
... new ideas & issues from Members and SDOs
00:12:20 [kaz]
... use cases, requirments and gap analysis
00:12:26 [kaz]
... but not specs themselves
00:12:32 [kaz]
... because this is an IG
00:13:03 [kaz]
... but some of the results could promote new features for other WGs
00:13:30 [kaz]
... we're encouraged to work on more and more new features
00:13:34 [gkatsev]
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00:13:35 [kaz]
... [WICG]
00:13:47 [kaz]
... discourse forum there
00:14:24 [kaz]
... get implementer supporter for your idea
00:14:37 [kaz]
... GitHub repo for your proposed feature
00:16:18 [kaz]
... [Contributing to HTML and DOM]
00:16:24 [kaz]
... HTML WG and WHATWG
00:16:28 [kaz]
... [Task Forces]
00:16:46 [kaz]
... 2018-19: Media Timed Events TF
00:17:06 [kaz]
... 2016-17: Cloud Browser API TF (dormant)
00:17:56 [kaz]
remote+ Kazuhiro_Hoya, Lei_Zhai
00:18:20 [kaz]
cpn: [Monthly conference call]
00:18:34 [kaz]
... 2019/2018
00:18:39 [kaz]
... (list of topics)
00:18:46 [kaz]
... [Activities for 2020]
00:19:00 [urata_]
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... whole bunch of topics for Media WG
00:19:08 [kaz]
... potential candidates for adaptation
00:19:33 [kaz]
... MEIG can input use cases and requirements
00:19:42 [kaz]
... [Activities for 2020 (cont)]
00:19:48 [kaz]
... what will be new topics for 2020?
00:19:54 [kaz]
... what would be the main things?
00:20:25 [kaz]
... would like to capture ideas
00:20:44 [kaz]
... in the after noon, we'll have more open discussion
00:20:58 [kaz]
... [Schedule]
00:21:00 [aYukiYoshida_]
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... (shows the agenda)
00:21:23 [kaz]
... any additions?
00:22:14 [kaz]
... [Resources]
00:22:21 [kaz]
... various links here
00:22:30 [kaz]
... btw, we have a new co-Chair, Pierre, here
00:23:01 [kaz]
pal: involving standard activity, e.g., IETF
00:23:08 [kaz]
... started with HTML WG for W3C
00:23:20 [kaz]
... co-editor of TTML 1.0
00:23:32 [kaz]
... feel free to contact me and Chris (and Igarashi-san)
00:24:14 [kaz]
cpn: would mention that Mark Vickers stepping down as a co-Chair
00:24:20 [kaz]
remote+ Mark_Vickers
00:24:36 [kaz]
cpn: has been leading the group successfully
00:24:49 [kaz]
... really getting the Web as the platform for media
00:25:02 [MarkVickers]
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... Mark will continue to participate in the MEIG
00:25:52 [kaz]
mv: one of the founding co-Chairs
00:26:03 [kaz]
... plan to stay involved as an Invited Expert
00:26:22 [kaz]
... the best source consolidated expertise is media, video and audio
00:26:39 [kaz]
... before HTML5 media support in the Web
00:26:48 [kaz]
... we've been a good source
00:27:05 [kaz]
... for W3C, WHATWG, Kronos, etc.
00:27:16 [Youngsun_Ryu_]
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00:27:20 [kaz]
... we don't write specs ourselves
00:27:32 [kaz]
... but see what's the priority for media on the Web
00:27:38 [kaz]
... provide expertise
00:28:02 [yyuki]
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00:28:03 [kaz]
... communicate with media companies, etc., which are not in the W3C as well
00:28:19 [kaz]
... it takes a lot of work
00:28:23 [kaz]
... glad to help
00:28:39 [kaz]
... a lot of leadership in studio world
00:28:44 [kaz]
... and so on
00:28:55 [kaz]
... have three very strong co-Chairs
00:29:01 [kaz]
... and Pierre is joining
00:29:17 [kaz]
... aiming for HTML5 media 2.0
00:29:32 [kaz]
... this is really a time to better support for media
00:29:59 [kaz]
... Comcast, my company, provides a new rep
00:30:06 [kaz]
jr: yes, I'm here
00:30:57 [kaz]
topic: Hybridcast update
00:31:51 [kaz]
-> https://app.box.com/s/gdgzwpnfqyzvjgts9me104ce6c3zfujv slides
00:32:00 [kaz]
ikeo: welcome to Japan!
00:32:12 [kaz]
... would talk about Hybridcast
00:32:36 [kaz]
... [Today's outline]
00:32:38 [Lei]
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... recent achievement of hybridcast
00:33:17 [kaz]
... [Deployment status]
00:33:29 [kaz]
... [History of standardization and experiments]
00:33:40 [kaz]
... 2014-2019
00:34:02 [kaz]
... hybridcast connect deployed on some of the TV sets
00:34:21 [kaz]
... [Shipment of Hybridcast receivers]
00:34:55 [kaz]
... number of receivers over 10 million
00:35:06 [kaz]
... [Trial deployment "Hybridcast-Connect"
00:35:13 [lzhai]
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00:35:35 [kaz]
... what is hybridcast connect?
00:35:53 [kaz]
... new functions/services uses new APIs
00:36:12 [kaz]
... new APIs are experimentally implemented in some of the TV sets
00:36:18 [kaz]
... brought an example here
00:36:30 [kaz]
... a number of companies are involved
00:36:43 [kaz]
... [Typical Sequence by additional APIs]
00:36:54 [kaz]
... 5 functions
00:37:01 [kaz]
... 1. media availability API
00:37:17 [kaz]
... 2. ChannelsInfoAPI
00:37:24 [kaz]
... 3. StartAITAPI
00:37:29 [kaz]
... 4. TaskStatusAPI
00:37:34 [kaz]
... 5. ReceiverStatusAPI
00:37:45 [kaz]
s/media availability API/MediaAvailabilityAPI/
00:37:54 [kaz]
... [Hybridcast Connect demo]
00:38:00 [kaz]
... will show a demo here
00:38:12 [kaz]
... (brings a TV set in front of the screen
00:38:45 [kaz]
... [Hybridcast-Connect demos]
00:38:48 [kaz]
... two demos
00:38:56 [kaz]
... 1 emergency alert
00:39:10 [kaz]
... 2. smooth guidance of catch-up
00:39:24 [kaz]
... [Supporsed use cases demo (1)]
00:40:21 [kaz]
... (Kaz adds webcam to webex)
00:40:45 [kaz]
... embedded buttons here on my PC
00:41:33 [kaz]
... press a button on the PC and get a notification on the smartphone
00:42:24 [kaz]
@@: accessibility consideration?
00:42:42 [kaz]
... would be important
00:42:47 [kaz]
ikeo: agree
00:43:06 [kaz]
pal: API to TV? or smartphone?
00:43:23 [kaz]
ikeo: pairing between TV and smartphone
00:43:40 [kaz]
iga: depending on the TV's implementation
00:43:55 [kaz]
... possibly implemented as an application on the TV side
00:44:18 [kaz]
... the Hybridcast connect specification itself just specify the protocol
00:45:11 [kaz]
yongjun: additional latency?
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00:45:41 [kaz]
iga: remote control for playback, etc.?
00:45:55 [kaz]
ikeo: go back to [Typical Sequence by additional APIs]
00:46:11 [kaz]
... explains the sequence of communication
00:46:20 [kaz]
... using websocket
00:46:26 [kaz]
jongjun: how much latency there?
00:46:39 [kaz]
ikeo: TV-set dependent
00:46:54 [kaz]
iga: support all the functions?
00:47:02 [kaz]
ikeo: some specific functions are supported
00:47:20 [kaz]
iga: arrow keys are supported?
00:47:20 [kaz]
ikeo: yes
00:48:14 [kaz]
... would like to support all the keys included in the TV remote
00:48:20 [kaz]
iga: but there are too many buttons
00:48:48 [kaz]
ikeo: also we need to consider security
00:49:04 [kaz]
... e.g., to avoid unexpected change of volume
00:49:34 [kaz]
... here, all the 5 APIs are implemented based on HTTP
00:50:33 [kaz]
sudi: infra-red remote vs this API?
00:50:44 [kaz]
... what kind of values are added?
00:51:02 [kaz]
pal: TV implements some specific capabilities
00:51:40 [kaz]
iga: TV vendors have to implement the APIs
00:51:49 [kaz]
lilin: @@@
00:52:01 [kaz]
ikeo: more than two
00:52:05 [cpn]
s/sudi/sudeep/
00:52:20 [cpn]
s/@@@/how many TVs could be controlled?/
00:52:30 [inamori_]
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00:52:46 [kaz]
... we'd like to handle more than one TVs
00:53:10 [kaz]
... but TV vendors say hundreds of mobiles can't be connected
00:53:17 [kaz]
... maybe 2-3
00:53:49 [kaz]
ikeo: TV is used within a local network
00:54:00 [kaz]
... user selects which would be the best one to get connected
00:54:24 [kaz]
david: the system detects the devices available
00:54:24 [cpn]
s/@@/david/
00:54:47 [kaz]
... is children notified?
00:54:51 [kaz]
s/is/are/
00:55:10 [kaz]
ikeo: application keep it stored in the session information
00:55:23 [kaz]
... the user don't have to mind
00:55:37 [kaz]
pal: emergency notification itself is not included in the protocol
00:55:41 [kaz]
... its separate
00:55:45 [kaz]
ikeo: right
00:55:55 [kaz]
... these 5 APIs implemented within the device
00:55:59 [kaz]
... so device APIs
00:56:05 [kaz]
... not Web PIs
00:56:24 [kaz]
cpn: looking at secure protocol?
00:56:28 [kaz]
ikeo: some solution
00:56:43 [kaz]
... we have two devices using some key
00:57:02 [kaz]
cpn: second screen wg works on secure protocol
00:57:07 [kaz]
... so you're aware of that
00:57:09 [kaz]
ikeo: right
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00:57:29 [kaz]
... the problem is HTTPs in local network
00:58:02 [kaz]
... tx for your comments!
00:58:20 [kaz]
... [Supposed use cases demo (2)]
00:58:41 [kaz]
... implemented as a service like Netflix
00:59:04 [kaz]
... application selects a program from a list
00:59:12 [kaz]
... using just one API
00:59:43 [kaz]
... (select a program on his smartphone)
00:59:43 [MarkVickers]
Q: What would the Hybridcast group like from W3C? New specs? Changes to specs?
01:00:11 [MarkVickers]
Thx
01:00:29 [kaz]
ikeo: launch the HTMl5 app
01:00:45 [kaz]
... using Dash.js
01:01:00 [kaz]
iga: can control playback, forward/backward?
01:01:17 [kaz]
ikeo: can be done using websocket
01:02:23 [MarkVickers]
While it's always interesting to see what other groups are doing, we have to focus on our goals to drive changes into W3C and increase adoption of W3C standards outside of W3C.
01:02:45 [kaz]
yongjun: device features can be controled?
01:02:51 [kaz]
ikeo: some of the features
01:03:01 [kaz]
youngjun: how many subscribers?
01:03:23 [kaz]
ikeo: 30% of the TV sets include this feature
01:03:38 [kaz]
cpn: what would the Hybridcast group like from W3C?
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01:03:46 [kaz]
... new specs, gap analysis?
01:04:03 [kaz]
ikeo: would like to combine some Hybridcast APIs to W3C standards
01:04:19 [kaz]
... e.g., playback API, as Igarashi-san mentioned
01:04:38 [kaz]
... between a mobile and a TV
01:05:14 [kaz]
kaz: kind of like the formerly proposed TV control API?
01:05:20 [kaz]
ikeo: yeah...
01:05:37 [kaz]
cpn: or something like proposed by the second screen wg?
01:05:55 [kaz]
ikeo: we have to select web standard APIs
01:06:12 [kaz]
... can't create another APIs ourselves
01:06:33 [kaz]
... that's the second demo
01:06:45 [kaz]
... [Conformance Test and verification]
01:06:56 [kaz]
... [Conformance Test for Hybridcast-Connect]
01:07:11 [kaz]
s/Netflix/Netflix or Amazon Prime Video/
01:07:36 [kaz]
... IPTV Forum Japan provides hybridcast connect standard
01:07:40 [kaz]
... and also test kit
01:07:47 [kaz]
... this is the overview
01:07:51 [kaz]
... (shows a diagram)
01:08:17 [kaz]
... emulator as the test environment
01:08:52 [kaz]
cpn: cover the Web application?
01:09:06 [kaz]
ikeo: end-to-end test
01:09:19 [kaz]
... similar to the tests by HbbTV, etc.
01:09:38 [kaz]
... [Service Verification by MIC project and others]
01:10:03 [kaz]
... MIC is Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications from the Japanese Government
01:10:14 [kaz]
... service verification with Hybridcast-Connect
01:10:27 [kaz]
... in 2018 19 companies
01:10:32 [kaz]
... in 2019 23 companies
01:10:43 [kaz]
... that's it for Hybridcast update
01:10:49 [kaz]
... thank you!
01:11:12 [kaz]
cpn: what other specific things to address the gaps?
01:11:23 [kaz]
... relationship with the Web platform test, etc.
01:11:37 [kaz]
ikeo: we require some functions from Web APIs
01:11:57 [kaz]
... TV vendors sometimes want and sometimes not
01:12:14 [kaz]
cpn: ok
01:12:22 [kaz]
... move on to the next topic
01:12:50 [kaz]
topic: Media Timed Events in Hybridcast
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01:13:14 [kaz]
ikeo: [Service Patterns with Hybridcast Connect]
01:13:56 [kaz]
... broadcasters in Japan need trigger message to switch to broadcast service
01:14:12 [kaz]
... pattern1: from mobile app to broadcasing on TV
01:14:30 [kaz]
... pattern2: from another app in TV to broadcasting
01:14:47 [kaz]
... [Media Timed Events with Hybridcast-Connect]
01:14:59 [kaz]
... JP broadcasters interested in media timed events
01:15:09 [kaz]
... same function as the trigger message
01:15:21 [kaz]
... there are two possible choices
01:15:38 [kaz]
s/events/events (MTE)/
01:16:18 [kaz]
... (MTE data in video resource + push emergency alert notification) to the smartphone
01:16:38 [kaz]
... another option (MTE data in video resource to another app on TV)
01:16:53 [kaz]
... there are those two possible patterns
01:17:03 [kaz]
cpn: is this emsg?
01:17:09 [kaz]
... in ISO container
01:17:14 [kaz]
... in the DASH format
01:17:17 [kaz]
ikeo: yes
01:18:04 [kaz]
iga: upper pattern can be realized using mobile API
01:18:20 [kaz]
... but what about the bottom pattern?
01:18:43 [kaz]
... is the TV device at the bottom same as the one on the right?
01:18:45 [kaz]
ikeo: yes
01:19:23 [kaz]
... in the case of Android platform, the mechanism is something like intent
01:19:39 [kaz]
iga: general question about MTE
01:19:57 [kaz]
... unclear why you want to embed events within the video stream
01:20:30 [kaz]
ikeo: main reason is the cost of access the message API from mobile
01:20:36 [kaz]
iga: cost of notification servers
01:20:42 [kaz]
ikeo: right
01:20:53 [kaz]
... also the accuracy
01:21:17 [kaz]
iga: do we share the same requirements?
01:21:47 [kaz]
yongjun: which layer to be handled?
01:22:01 [kaz]
... should be fragment or manifest
01:22:20 [kaz]
iga: manifest embedded event?
01:22:26 [kaz]
ikeo: it depends on the needs
01:22:44 [atai]
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01:23:24 [kaz]
... in case of outbound, MTE might be written in the manifest
01:23:33 [kaz]
... and there would be possible delay
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01:23:45 [kaz]
iga: could be updated frequently
01:24:03 [kaz]
ikeo: related to cost of access transfer
01:24:24 [kaz]
... trade-off of accuracy and cost
01:24:34 [kaz]
... show another demo on MTE
01:25:05 [kaz]
... (select an app on his mobile)
01:25:21 [kaz]
... send a message using hybridcast-connect to the TV
01:25:34 [kaz]
... this is embedded event
01:25:48 [kaz]
... emergency alert shown on the upper-right of the TV
01:26:01 [kaz]
cpn: intended to synchronization of media?
01:26:24 [kaz]
ikeo: this mechanism just sends an alert
01:26:39 [kaz]
... and the Hybridcast application on the TV can handle how to display it
01:27:09 [kaz]
... [Usecases of MTE]
01:27:41 [kaz]
... switch broadcasting service from OTT triggered by emergency message
01:28:08 [kaz]
... super-impose time-dependent metadata, e.g., weather icon and event information
01:28:32 [kaz]
... new style of ad-insertion on a broadcasting service
01:28:48 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
01:28:53 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:28:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
01:29:06 [kaz]
... [MediaTimedEvents demos]
01:29:11 [kaz]
... demo implementations
01:29:43 [kaz]
... use case 1: switch live news program on braodcasting service from OTT service by emergency-warning message
01:30:47 [kaz]
... use case 2: super-impose a weather icon on the Internet video
01:30:52 [kaz]
-> https://app.box.com/s/twutrrnnognzueecgcz1ojc7bqe5q9s9 slides
01:31:14 [kaz]
cpn: what is the requirements?
01:31:24 [kaz]
ikeo: would like to show the picture on the warning
01:31:53 [kaz]
... but sometimes overlaps with the important content (e.g., peoples faces)
01:32:04 [kaz]
iga: depends on the apps
01:32:18 [kaz]
... for some apps, accuracy is not important
01:32:59 [kaz]
ikeo: we have to consider the accuracy of timing for many cases
01:33:13 [kaz]
... that's all
01:33:20 [kaz]
cpn: tx!
01:33:27 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:33:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
01:33:54 [tidoust]
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01:34:24 [kaz]
ikeo: btw, we would like other devices, e.g., drones, from the app on TV
01:34:38 [kaz]
... during the WoT demo, we'll show home appliance demos
01:35:08 [kaz]
kaz: at the lunch place, Argos
01:35:14 [kaz]
... and Wednesday breakout
01:35:25 [kaz]
s/Argos/Argos on the 1st floor/
01:35:29 [kaz]
cpn: excellent
01:35:42 [kaz]
ikeo: we'd like to use MTE as the basis
01:35:57 [kaz]
[break till 11am
01:36:02 [kaz]
s/11am/11am]
01:36:11 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:36:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
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02:08:35 [kaz]
topic: Media Timed Events Task Force
02:09:03 [kaz]
-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1f8LVFY3shrUsksKWLyBVQk3icDN4zEsgV0NX9oqPXNw/edit slides
02:09:05 [YukiYoshida]
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02:09:22 [MarkVickers]
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02:09:22 [kaz]
cpn: [Topics]
02:09:29 [JohnRiv]
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02:09:36 [kumekawa]
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02:09:55 [kaz]
... in-band timed metadata and timed event support
02:10:16 [ShinyaAbe]
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02:10:26 [kaz]
... out-of band timed metadata
02:11:42 [kaz]
... improving synchronization of DOM events triggered on the media timeline
02:11:53 [kaz]
... also MPEG carriage of Web resources in ISO BMFF
02:12:26 [kaz]
... [History]
02:12:34 [kaz]
... our TF started in 2018
02:13:01 [ak]
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02:13:03 [kaz]
... Giri Mandyam from Qualcomm preesnted work at ATSC and MPEG on eventing
02:13:21 [kaz]
... published use cases and requirements document early this year
02:13:46 [kaz]
... [Use cases for timed metadata and in-band events]
02:13:56 [kaz]
... MPEG-DASH specific use cases
02:14:06 [kaz]
... notification to media player
02:14:24 [kaz]
... another use case about getting matrix during playback
02:14:56 [kaz]
... ID3 tags: title, artist, image URLs
02:15:23 [kaz]
... ad insertion cues: SCTE35, SCTE214-1, 2, 3
02:15:39 [kaz]
ds: keeping web page in synch with media
02:15:47 [kaz]
... you got slides and talking about the slide
02:15:54 [kaz]
... flip the slide dec and showing
02:16:03 [kaz]
cpn: we have something like that in the explainer
02:17:00 [kaz]
pal: we heard another use case in the morning
02:17:17 [kaz]
cpn: multiple contents and multiple events
02:17:37 [kaz]
pal: do you know if the cues tied to entire content?
02:17:43 [kaz]
... somebody may remove the trigger
02:17:56 [kaz]
cpn: emsg separately handles
02:18:10 [kaz]
pal: can remove part of the content and it's still relevant
02:18:12 [kaz]
cpn: right
02:18:33 [kaz]
... [Recommendations]
02:18:53 [kaz]
... allow web application to subscribe to event streams by event type
02:19:03 [kaz]
... discussion on type of event
02:19:20 [kaz]
... maybe some concern
02:19:29 [kaz]
... something we can discuss
02:19:43 [kaz]
... also allow web applications to create timed event/timed metadata cues
02:19:56 [kaz]
... including start time, end time and data payload
02:20:30 [nonoka]
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02:20:30 [kaz]
iga: in the morning, we had some discussion on in-band message
02:20:45 [kaz]
... wondering if the current W3C standards support it
02:20:54 [kaz]
... only the scope could be in-band events?
02:21:22 [kaz]
cpn: there are some implementations
02:21:26 [kaz]
... e.g., for HbbTV
02:21:34 [kaz]
... exposing MPD events
02:21:58 [kaz]
... W3C specs don't say anything about type of events
02:22:38 [kaz]
... next, actual triggering
02:22:42 [mam]
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02:22:55 [kaz]
... when cues are parsed from the media container by the UA
02:23:09 [kaz]
... when the current playback position reaches the cue start/end on the media timeline
02:23:49 [kaz]
... allow cues with unknow end time
02:24:18 [kaz]
... and finally
02:24:34 [kaz]
... improving synchronization (within 20 msec on media timeline)
02:25:23 [ken_]
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02:26:56 [kaz]
ds: covers seeking?
02:27:11 [kaz]
... duration of events to be understood
02:27:23 [kaz]
... what would happen if jump-off?
02:27:30 [kaz]
... very hard to handle spike event
02:27:34 [kaz]
s/event/events/
02:27:43 [kaz]
cpn: some of that kind of use cases for DASH
02:27:54 [kaz]
... absolutely right
02:28:27 [kaz]
iga: requirement might be can detect that kind of delay
02:28:44 [kaz]
... applications would know about the difference between specified timing and actual fired timing
02:28:56 [kaz]
... we need to improved the timing (if possible)
02:29:01 [kaz]
... but should identify the gap
02:29:10 [kaz]
... e.g., based on the timestamp
02:29:25 [kaz]
cpn: [Current status]
02:29:30 [kaz]
... almost complete
02:29:51 [lilin_]
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02:29:56 [kaz]
s/complete/complete Task Force use cases and requirements/
02:30:10 [kaz]
... WICG DataCue explainer in progress
02:30:55 [kaz]
... API spec not started yet
02:31:21 [kaz]
david: need to revise DASH spec, etc.?
02:31:40 [kaz]
cpn: we need to have discussion about what kind of mechanism is needed first
02:31:53 [kaz]
... do we ask the UA to give structured data, etc.
02:32:06 [kaz]
... question about how the different formats should match the need
02:32:22 [kaz]
s/david/yongjun/
02:32:38 [kaz]
mv: the issue is how to map particular data format
02:32:44 [kaz]
... and how to present it
02:32:51 [kaz]
... the reference by HTML5
02:32:56 [kaz]
... need to be updated
02:33:15 [kaz]
... based on the newest MPEG spec
02:33:18 [cpn]
https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-sourcing-inband-tracks/
02:33:21 [kaz]
... maybe another form
02:33:26 [kaz]
cpn: really interesting
02:33:40 [kaz]
... other things reference it
02:33:47 [kaz]
... URL spec
02:34:03 [kaz]
... not really standardized
02:34:27 [kaz]
... definitely right we need handle it
02:34:40 [kaz]
... in more standardized shape
02:34:43 [kaz]
mv: another question
02:34:55 [kaz]
... data cue was implemented in webkit before HTML5
02:35:00 [cpn]
https://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
02:35:43 [kaz]
mv: concern about syntax and semantics
02:36:05 [kaz]
cpn: don't know the answer now
02:36:18 [kaz]
... a session by the Media WG will be held
02:36:35 [kaz]
mv: sounds like a right place
02:36:55 [kaz]
cpn: [MPEG Carriage of Web Resources in ISO-BMFF Containers]
02:37:01 [kaz]
... saw TAG advice
02:37:43 [kaz]
... since then people working on MPEG as ISO/IEC FDIS 23001-15
02:37:56 [kaz]
ds: probably public
02:38:53 [kaz]
cpn: this topic is welcome to the MEIG
02:39:24 [kaz]
ds: good to have a workshop including the MEIG, ISO, etc.
02:39:40 [kaz]
... trying to get users of technology at the same time at the same place
02:39:51 [kaz]
... including security experts
02:40:03 [kaz]
pal: what is the use case?
02:40:07 [kaz]
ds: two things
02:40:23 [kaz]
.. carriage of web pages
02:40:53 [kaz]
... synchronization of media
02:41:03 [kaz]
pal: but what would be the actual business cases?
02:41:31 [MarkVickers]
FYI, we have previously gotten permission from MPEG to host MPEG documents on the W3C member-only website. We could ask for MPEG for permission to host CMAF spec for this purpose.
02:41:33 [kaz]
... btw, the community draft is available
02:41:42 [kaz]
s/... btw/pal: btw/
02:42:03 [kaz]
iga: benefit of web resource embedded to MPEG
02:42:22 [kaz]
... possibly reduce the cost for the web servers
02:42:27 [kaz]
... could be beneficial
02:43:02 [kaz]
pal: the offline case is weird to me
02:43:23 [kaz]
iga: one of the use cases to be addressed
02:43:29 [kaz]
... there are some offline use cases
02:43:35 [kaz]
... packaged delivery
02:43:45 [kaz]
s/packaged/for packaged/
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02:44:41 [kaz]
cpn: [Browser support for DataCue]
02:44:48 [kaz]
... current support by browsers
02:45:07 [kaz]
... edge: HTML 5.1 DataCue attribute ArrayBuffer data;
02:45:17 [kaz]
... chrome: no support
02:45:23 [kaz]
... safari: supported
02:45:27 [kaz]
... firefox: no support
02:45:51 [kaz]
... HbbTV: HTL 5.1 (8 Oct 2015 ED) DataCue with native handling of player specific events
02:46:02 [kaz]
... [Player support for DASH and HLS events]
02:46:54 [kaz]
... Shaka Player: shaka.Player.EmsgEvent no internal handling of manifest refresh events.
02:47:04 [kaz]
... (some more examples)
02:47:11 [kaz]
... [Next steps]
02:47:27 [kaz]
... breakout session on Wednesday about "DataCue API and time marches on in HTML"
02:47:39 [kaz]
s/HTML"/HTML" at 11:00am/
02:48:01 [kaz]
... raise issues against WHATWG HTML to propose changes to time marches on
02:49:07 [kaz]
mw: may have people aware of the algorithm
02:49:22 [kaz]
... during the Media WG meeting
02:49:38 [kaz]
s/media WG meeting/breakout/
02:49:45 [kaz]
iga: in scope of the Meida WG?
02:49:49 [kaz]
cpn: right
02:50:05 [kaz]
... the Media WG would take on standardization if the direction is correct
02:50:24 [kaz]
... we started a TF within MEIG and now are looking at WICG
02:50:52 [kaz]
iga: any friction?
02:51:04 [kaz]
cpn: we're looking at the possible API design
02:51:23 [kaz]
iga: what I remember from the previous TPAC
02:51:42 [kaz]
... we were looking at WICG
02:51:49 [kaz]
... but what would be the direction now?
02:51:58 [kaz]
cpn: we don't have enough input
02:52:12 [kaz]
... need more concrete feedback for the possible API
02:52:22 [kaz]
... in JavaScript at the moment
02:52:33 [kaz]
... would be good to have more involvement
02:52:45 [kaz]
... also would be good to have more browser vendors
02:52:57 [kaz]
... need to have wider discussion
02:53:34 [kaz]
... if we proposed issues, that should go to WHATWG
02:53:49 [kaz]
... increasing timing accuracy
02:53:56 [kaz]
... [References]
02:54:03 [kaz]
... (links to resources)
02:54:09 [kaz]
iga: WICG would have their meeting?
02:54:15 [kaz]
cpn: Thu/Fri
02:54:31 [kaz]
... also we have a breakout session ourselves
02:54:40 [kaz]
iga: it's good timing to have discussion with them
02:55:05 [kaz]
... should ask the other participants about opinions as well
02:55:30 [kaz]
... need to get opinions from the MEIG guys
02:55:40 [kaz]
pal: when would be our final report available?
02:56:14 [kaz]
... more input needed?
02:56:30 [kaz]
... anybody have any specific objections?
02:56:49 [kaz]
iga: we have not specifically asked the MEIG for opnions
02:56:55 [kaz]
s/opnions/opinions/
02:57:07 [kaz]
... report itself is about requirements
02:57:17 [kaz]
... it's an IG Note. right?
02:57:19 [kaz]
cpn: yes
02:57:50 [kaz]
pal: the report says something is missing and to be added?
02:58:08 [kaz]
... shouldn't say that explicitly?
02:58:22 [kaz]
cpn: solution design to be done by WICG
02:59:08 [kaz]
... our TF could continue editorial changes
02:59:38 [kaz]
... everybody, please join in
02:59:45 [kaz]
topic: CTA WAVE update
02:59:53 [sangwhan]
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03:00:27 [sangwhan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:00:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html sangwhan
03:00:44 [kaz]
(we're delayed by 30mins)
03:01:10 [kaz]
-> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-mAhZe8s2TRDygCW1fPc-aJkvA1yCTH1/view?usp=sharing slides
03:01:37 [yyuki]
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03:02:07 [kaz]
jr: John Riviello from Comcast
03:02:32 [kaz]
... quick update on CTA WAVE
03:02:40 [tidoust]
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03:02:42 [kaz]
... [The Web Appliction Video Ecosystem Project]
03:02:54 [kaz]
... aims, focuses, ...
03:03:05 [kaz]
... [Supporting a fragmented OTT world]
03:03:20 [kaz]
... fragmentation impacts content providers and device makers
03:03:29 [kaz]
... [Brief history]
03:03:42 [kaz]
... CEA initiated the GIVE project in 2015
03:03:57 [kaz]
... CEA becomes CTA in Nov. 2015
03:04:10 [kaz]
... [Steering Committee]
03:04:26 [kaz]
... technical WG
03:04:40 [kaz]
... CSTF for content specification
03:04:50 [kaz]
... DPCTF for testable requirements
03:05:04 [kaz]
... HATF for reference application framework
03:05:26 [kaz]
... [WAVE bridges media standards & web standards]
03:05:34 [kaz]
... [Curent WAVE Membership]
03:05:37 [kaz]
... many members
03:05:47 [kaz]
... overlapping with W3C Members
03:05:54 [kaz]
... [What is the Common...]
03:06:04 [kaz]
... [WAVE COntent Spec & Published CMAF Media Profiles]
03:06:20 [kaz]
... [Media Profile Approval]
03:06:40 [kaz]
... profiles are added
03:06:49 [kaz]
... typically updated once a year
03:07:02 [kaz]
... [WAVE Content Specification 2018 AMD 1 - Video Profiles]
03:07:23 [kaz]
... [WAVE Content Spec 2018 AMD 1 - Audio Profiles]
03:07:24 [tidoust]
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03:07:37 [kaz]
... [WAVE Programs and Live Linear...]
03:07:48 [kaz]
... [Anticipated WAVE Content Spec 2019 Updates]
03:07:59 [kaz]
... [Test SUite: COntent Verification Tool]
03:08:06 [kaz]
... verification content
03:08:29 [kaz]
... shared with DASH-IF conformance validator
03:08:37 [kaz]
... [CSTF - Specification Process]
03:08:45 [kaz]
... annual f2f meeting
03:08:48 [kaz]
... [Links]
03:08:57 [kaz]
... links for resources
03:09:04 [kaz]
... [HATF: HTML5 API...]
03:09:10 [kaz]
... What We Do in the HATF]
03:09:20 [kaz]
... playback audio-video media
03:09:52 [kaz]
... [HATF Work Plan]
03:10:00 [kaz]
... W3C Web Media API CG
03:10:22 [kaz]
... [HTML5 APIs: Reference Platform]
03:10:33 [kaz]
... one content format but multiple devices
03:10:40 [kaz]
... [HATF Specs]
03:10:44 [kaz]
... snapshots
03:10:52 [kaz]
... Web Media API snapshop (WMAS)
03:11:12 [kaz]
... CTA and W3C co-publishing
03:11:21 [kaz]
iga: what do you mean?
03:11:30 [kaz]
jr: working on the same document
03:11:44 [kaz]
iga: not WG but CG?
03:12:02 [kaz]
... it's not "W3C Recommendation" but "CG Report"
03:14:19 [hfuji_]
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03:14:21 [kaz]
fd: fyi, there will be discussion about W3C process during this week
03:14:29 [kaz]
ab: part of the plenary
03:14:39 [kaz]
s/plenary/plenary on Wednesday/
03:14:54 [kaz]
jr: [Anticipated Web Media API 2019 Snapshot Updates]
03:15:03 [kaz]
... update to ECMAScript 7
03:15:12 [kaz]
... CSS snapshot 2018
03:15:30 [kaz]
... [HATF Testing Framework]
03:15:33 [MarkVickers]
FYI on referencing WAVE specs: ATSC references the WAVE WMAS as published by CTA, which is referencable. The W3C version of the WMAS spec, like all CG specs, includes boilerplate language that it should not be referenced.
03:15:38 [kaz]
... WMAS Testing Suite Updates]
03:16:09 [kaz]
... [Abstracted Device Playback Model]
03:16:27 [kaz]
... (skips some slides)
03:16:35 [kaz]
... [Spec Highlights and Outline Dec 2018]
03:16:51 [kaz]
... [Promisses in Spec for 2019 and beyond]
03:17:07 [kaz]
... [Test Sutie: RFPs]
03:17:19 [kaz]
... [Q&A]
03:17:24 [kaz]
... questions?
03:17:38 [kaz]
iga: what are you going to talk about "type1 player"?
03:17:59 [kaz]
... any room for W3C standardization?
03:18:27 [kaz]
... if you have any specific requirements, the MEIG can discuss that
03:18:43 [kaz]
... btw, what is the "Content Model Format"?
03:20:05 [kaz]
cpn: question around testing
03:20:19 [kaz]
... is the work related to the web platform testing?
03:20:53 [kaz]
pal: should we put that on the agenda for the afternoon?
03:20:57 [kaz]
all: ok
03:21:20 [kaz]
topic: Review open issues
03:21:39 [kaz]
cpn: we use GitHub to manage issues
03:22:03 [kaz]
... most of the issues will be covered in the afternoon jointly with the other WGs
03:22:22 [kaz]
... but one specific issue here about frame accurate synchronization and seeking
03:24:33 [kaz]
fd: [Related GitHub Issues]
03:24:41 [kaz]
... issue 4, 5, 21
03:25:00 [kaz]
... the main issue is #4 frame accurate seeking of HTML5 MediaElement
03:25:13 [kaz]
... [Categories of Us ecases]
03:25:23 [kaz]
s/Us ecases/Use cases/
03:25:29 [kaz]
... 2 different use cases
03:25:36 [kaz]
... seeking and rendering
03:25:52 [kaz]
... [Main Seeking Use Cases]
03:26:00 [kaz]
... non-linear edition in a browser
03:26:32 [kaz]
... can be cloud-based
03:26:53 [kaz]
... collaborative review
03:27:08 [kaz]
... evidence playback by camera and video
03:27:23 [kaz]
... [Seeking Gaps]
03:27:39 [kaz]
... currentTime is not precise enough to identify individual frames
03:28:20 [kaz]
... also no way to seek to the next/prev frame in the generic case
03:28:27 [kaz]
... just matter of time
03:28:40 [kaz]
... when is going to be the next frame
03:29:05 [kaz]
... [Main Rendering Use Cases]
03:29:34 [kaz]
... dynamic content insertion (splicing)
03:29:56 [kaz]
... video overlays
03:30:58 [kaz]
... media playback synchronized with map animations
03:31:09 [kaz]
... synchronization between audio and timed text, e.g., karaoke
03:31:21 [kaz]
... synchonized playback across users/devices
03:31:58 [kaz]
iga: requirements for time seeking?
03:32:09 [kaz]
fd: this is rather rendering issues
03:32:21 [kaz]
pal: sample alignment and duration
03:32:48 [kaz]
pal: current web platform doesn't allow frame-accurate timing
03:32:58 [kaz]
fd: [Rendering Gaps]
03:33:10 [kaz]
... currentTime is not precise enough to identify individual frames
03:33:35 [kaz]
... also timestampOffset is not precise to identify frame boundaries
03:33:49 [kaz]
... it's hard to track media timeline frame by frame
03:34:02 [kaz]
... in any case there is no mechanism to handle frame accuracy
03:34:28 [kaz]
... also synchronization between video and audio
03:34:41 [kaz]
... if you look at global synchronization
03:35:07 [kaz]
... no way to tie the rendering of a video frame to the local wall clock
03:35:31 [MarkVickers]
Following up on earlier question: It has always been the intention of WAVE to contribute back to W3C any new tests and also any changes to the W3C test runner. WAVE representatives met with the W3C test group at TPAC 2018. There was an issue opened on April 2, 2019: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/16214 There was a PR entered on June 12, 2019: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/rfcs/pull/23
03:36:19 [kaz]
[lunch till 1:30pm]
03:36:26 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
03:36:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
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04:33:49 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Andreas_Tai, John_Riviello, Chris_Needham, Pierre_Lemieux, Gary_Katsevman, Scott_Low, Greg_Freedman, Mark_Watson, Eric_Siow, Sudeep_Divakaran, Li_Lin, Xu_Song, Youngsun_Ryu, Hiroshi_Fujisawa, Masaya_Ikeo
04:33:57 [takio]
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04:34:41 [kaz]
topic: Future directions for media on the web
04:34:57 [kaz]
-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1YNMt_opIT8B5niUvYGsgjuaLOsElxDHxQw31f3eI7fM/edit slides
04:35:05 [ken]
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04:35:07 [kaz]
cpn: [M&E IG Recommendations]
04:35:14 [Joshue108]
present+
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04:35:29 [kaz]
s/topic: Future directions for media on the web//
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04:35:55 [kaz]
topic: Frame accuracy synchronization (contd)
04:36:05 [kaz]
s|-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1YNMt_opIT8B5niUvYGsgjuaLOsElxDHxQw31f3eI7fM/edit slides||
04:36:15 [kaz]
fd: continue the slides
04:36:34 [kaz]
s/cpn: [M&E IG Recommendations]//
04:36:44 [kaz]
fd: [Rendering Gaps that Remain]
04:36:55 [hfuji]
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04:36:56 [kaz]
... currentTime is not precise enough
04:37:04 [kaz]
... timestampOffset is not precise enough
04:37:22 [kaz]
... three following requirements deleted
04:37:30 [kaz]
... [Seeking Gaps that remain]
04:37:35 [kaz]
... [Next Steps?]
04:37:43 [kaz]
... what do we want to do?
04:38:58 [kaz]
... follow up on MTE recommendations around synchronization? who?
04:39:06 [samira]
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04:39:20 [kaz]
... wrete a UCR document on frame accurate synch? who?
04:39:33 [kaz]
... feed needs back into WHATWG and Media WG? who?
04:39:59 [kaz]
... different possible groups to bring ideas to
04:40:22 [kaz]
... possibly machine learning group?
04:40:46 [kaz]
... discussion with different people on Wednesday
04:41:08 [kaz]
cpn: production use cases?
04:41:09 [Youngsun_Ryu]
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04:41:17 [kaz]
pal: put together a presentation
04:41:30 [kaz]
... what's happening about a lot professional asset
04:41:44 [hfuji]
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04:41:57 [kaz]
... have some demo as well
04:42:35 [kaz]
mw: the problem is probably how to identify individual frame
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04:43:09 [kaz]
... could be ended up with overlaps
04:43:20 [kaz]
cpn: we need rationale
04:44:07 [kaz]
iga: (asks new comers to sing up with the attendees list)
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04:44:18 [kaz]
... btw, this proposal includes two different points
04:44:35 [kaz]
... because the difficulty for realization is quite different
04:44:59 [kaz]
... depending on theperformance of the browsers and the hardware
04:45:30 [MarkVickers]
present+ MarkVickers
04:45:39 [kaz]
fd: maybe write two documents or might be simply continue discussion
04:46:10 [kaz]
... there are different use cases
04:46:20 [kaz]
... some of them might be out of scope
04:46:24 [ReinaldoFerraz_]
ReinaldoFerraz_ has joined #me
04:46:51 [kaz]
pal: sound and video synchronization is a use case
04:47:00 [kaz]
... not even possible currently
04:47:11 [kaz]
... there is no API for that purpose today
04:47:24 [kaz]
iga: that requirement is related to time seeking
04:47:40 [kaz]
... different from synchronization itself
04:47:56 [kaz]
pal: when you say "seeking", it's API level. right?
04:48:26 [kaz]
iga: currently there is no way for requirements to specify how quickly browsers should behave
04:48:29 [hfuji]
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04:49:02 [kaz]
pal: it's largely implementation-dependent?
04:49:05 [kaz]
iga: yeah
04:49:23 [kaz]
... current time issue and synchronization are different issues
04:49:42 [kaz]
... wonder if any other W3C specs handle that kind of performance
04:49:47 [ak]
ak has joined #me
04:49:57 [kaz]
... how fast browsers are expected to render the data
04:50:09 [kaz]
... we need to talk about performance
04:50:24 [kaz]
pal: sounds like you're interested in making contribution :)
04:51:36 [JohnRiv]
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hfuji has joined #me
04:52:17 [kaz]
yongjun: need some mechanism to handle frame jumping
04:52:34 [kaz]
... not only at the beginning
04:52:47 [kaz]
... if we care about one case, we may miss another case
04:53:02 [kaz]
iga: ad-insertion seamlessly?
04:53:41 [kaz]
... accuracy of seeking is important for many use cases
04:54:04 [kaz]
... but we should distinguish time seeking accuracy
04:54:25 [hfuji]
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04:54:47 [kaz]
pal: if there is a stream and also another stream starts, in that case, need for frame accuracy
04:54:52 [kaz]
iga: that's true
04:55:23 [kaz]
topic: Professional media workflows on the web
04:55:26 [kaz]
pal: very timely topic
04:55:32 [kaz]
... proposal by MovieLabs
04:55:49 [kaz]
... increasing popularity
04:56:05 [kaz]
... [Web applications are coming to profesisonal media workflows]
04:56:07 [kaz]
... why?
04:56:12 [mam]
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04:56:19 [kaz]
... web applications have become mainstream
04:56:31 [kaz]
... web platform media capabilities are tantalizingly close
04:57:01 [kaz]
... profesisonal audiovisual assets are moving to the cloud
04:57:12 [kaz]
... [Why move audio-visual assets to the cloud?]
04:57:59 [kaz]
.. instead of using UPS
04:58:10 [kaz]
... now available immediately on the cloud
04:58:31 [kaz]
... it's more secure actually
04:58:42 [kaz]
... and of course more efficient
04:58:44 [kaz]
... [Today]
04:59:20 [kaz]
... previsualization, visual effects, grading, editing, localization, mastering, qualit check, archival, distribution
04:59:28 [kaz]
... [tomorrow]
04:59:54 [kaz]
... all of them will be on the cloud (and can be accessed via web applications)
05:00:03 [kaz]
... [demo]
05:00:12 [kaz]
... ownzones
05:00:22 [kaz]
... content already on the cloud
05:01:26 [kaz]
... there is an editor here
05:01:33 [kaz]
... (for audio and timed text)
05:01:50 [kaz]
... (going back to the presentation)
05:02:04 [kaz]
... [Some steps of the workflow remain out of reach of web applications]
05:02:13 [kaz]
... gaps exist in the web platform
05:02:20 [kaz]
... what's missing?
05:02:26 [kaz]
... that's it
05:02:55 [kaz]
cpn: we have many items, so don't want to dive into the details
05:03:46 [kaz]
yongsun: as far as I know, people use MSE
05:04:07 [kaz]
s/youngsun/yongjun/
05:04:20 [kaz]
iga: video editing using browser
05:04:39 [kaz]
... requirements for rendering related to multiple video clipping
05:04:59 [kaz]
... handle frames seamlessly
05:05:12 [kaz]
pal: we need volunteers
05:05:46 [kaz]
mw: not volunteering myself but support the use cases
05:05:50 [NJ_]
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05:06:24 [kaz]
scott: folks here might want to consider local context
05:06:27 [kaz]
s/context/content/
05:06:36 [kaz]
iga: local content using browser?
05:06:46 [kaz]
scott: not necessarily on the cloud
05:07:11 [kaz]
... how to handle frame accuracy on the local devices
05:07:23 [kaz]
pal: help document the issues?
05:07:34 [kaz]
... take a first step
05:07:43 [kaz]
... somebody needs to take the lead
05:08:05 [kaz]
... this is listing the current issues
05:08:34 [kaz]
gary: interested
05:08:56 [kaz]
cpn: thank you
05:09:52 [kaz]
@@: gathering data
05:09:58 [kaz]
... we have a few ideas
05:10:12 [kaz]
... one of them is adding attribute to video tags
05:10:25 [kaz]
... somebody from Google also proposed media container
05:10:34 [kaz]
... my first question is
05:10:48 [kaz]
... would you have any thoughts
05:10:56 [kaz]
... will host a session on Wednesday
05:11:21 [kaz]
cpn: related to content representation
05:12:17 [kaz]
... quite a lot of valuables
05:12:22 [kaz]
s/@@/samira/
05:12:31 [Joshue108]
q?
05:12:47 [kaz]
cpn: we'll talk about caption later
05:12:51 [yos]
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05:13:03 [kaz]
andreas: where to standardize 360 video, etc.
05:13:08 [igarashi]
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05:13:17 [kaz]
... we have a presentation on that later in the afternoon
05:13:27 [kaz]
... also a session on Wednesday
05:13:44 [kaz]
... possibly tomorrow as well
05:14:05 [kaz]
cpn: anybody aware of MPEG format update?
05:14:12 [kaz]
ds: whole bunch of work
05:15:17 [tidoust]
https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-i/omnidirectional-media-format
05:15:20 [dsinger]
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05:15:21 [scottlow]
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05:15:25 [scottlow]
https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-i
05:15:30 [markw]
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05:15:30 [dsinger]
https://mpeg.chiariglione.org
05:15:46 [kaz]
andread: TTWG has liaison with MPEG
05:15:55 [kaz]
... but just one part of scenarios
05:16:00 [kaz]
... inband information
05:16:12 [Song]
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05:16:12 [kaz]
... doesn't sort the issues about outband captionning
05:16:19 [kaz]
s/nning/ning/
05:16:28 [kaz]
s/andread/andreas/
05:16:44 [Joshue108]
There are also accessibility requirements around how 360 is standardised.
05:16:54 [kaz]
andreas: possibly discuss that tomorrow?
05:17:00 [kaz]
samira: possible
05:17:25 [kaz]
... how many content producers, providers, here?
05:17:29 [kaz]
... what block you?
05:17:39 [kaz]
song: China Mobile
05:18:04 [kaz]
iga: VR content protection?
05:18:12 [kaz]
samira: can be represented as VR
05:18:24 [kaz]
... magic window scenario
05:18:44 [kaz]
... just wanted to bring this discussion up
05:18:57 [kaz]
cpn: what's the natural home for this discussion?
05:19:08 [kaz]
... first candidate is Timed Text
05:19:32 [kaz]
samira: just wanted to share the ideas since this is an IG
05:19:55 [kaz]
josue: possibl multimodal information
05:20:10 [kaz]
andreas: would like to come back later in the afternoon
05:20:18 [kaz]
... where to do it
05:20:27 [kaz]
... really difficult to find a right place
05:20:47 [kaz]
cpn: related to accessibility
05:21:57 [kaz]
sudeep: Chair of the Web&Networks IG
05:22:05 [kaz]
... will have our meeting tomorrow
05:22:09 [kaz]
... please drop by
05:22:22 [kaz]
... interested in Media Timed Event as well
05:22:26 [kaz]
... network latency
05:22:38 [kaz]
... very happy to give inputs
05:22:48 [kaz]
cpn: interesting questions
05:23:01 [kaz]
... very close relationship with this group
05:23:10 [Joshue108]
s/josue: possibl multimodal information/Josh: There are accessibility requirements if 360 is to be standardised, around an architecture that will support accessibiity and multimodal requirements.
05:23:56 [kaz]
cpn: having a Web interface
05:24:36 [kaz]
... webrtc stream for multiple different sources
05:24:50 [kaz]
... it is stuff we've been implementing
05:25:12 [kaz]
... not necessarily synchronized with each other
05:25:46 [kaz]
sudeep: how should we bring back?
05:25:52 [kaz]
cpn: GitHub issues
05:25:59 [kaz]
... also we have monthly IG calls
05:26:20 [kaz]
... have media-related topics
05:26:58 [kaz]
josh: particular accessibility issue in synch with video stream
05:27:06 [kaz]
cpn: yeah
05:27:12 [kaz]
josh: bunch of stuff
05:27:33 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Accessible_RTC_Use_Cases
05:27:39 [kaz]
... can put resource on what I'm working on (above)
05:27:56 [kaz]
s/... can/josh: can/
05:28:02 [kaz]
... related to this group
05:29:33 [kaz]
... different modality channels based on user's preference, TTS, braille, etc.
05:30:02 [kaz]
(kaz remembers the MMI Architecture and SCXML :)
05:30:20 [kaz]
cpn: any other issues?
05:30:24 [kaz]
iga: local packaging?
05:30:33 [kaz]
... publishing group is working on packaged media
05:30:53 [pal]
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05:31:07 [kaz]
... playback locally
05:31:15 [pal]
pal has joined #me
05:31:20 [kaz]
... on a local storage
05:31:25 [kaz]
... might be with very high resolution of time
05:31:40 [kaz]
cpn: seems we need another gap analysis
05:32:11 [tidoust]
[Note the breakout session on Web Packaging planned on Wednesday: https://w3c.github.io/tpac-breakouts/sessions.html#wpack ]
05:33:03 [kaz]
topic: bullet Chatting
05:33:14 [kaz]
song: Song Xu from China Mobile
05:33:26 [kaz]
... would give a presentation about bullet chatting
05:33:38 [kaz]
... Michael from Dwango as well
05:34:10 [cpn]
https://w3c.github.io/danmaku/index_en.html
05:34:20 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/danmaku/index_en.html proposal
05:34:56 [kaz]
scribenick: tidoust
05:35:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:35:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
05:35:35 [chcunningham]
chcunningham has joined #me
05:35:58 [kaz]
iwelcome and let's get started/scribenick: kaz/
05:36:18 [kaz]
s/Welcome and introduction/topic: Welcome and introduction/
05:36:18 [Joshue108]
Joshue108 has joined #me
05:36:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:36:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
05:36:34 [tidoust]
song: Interactive tool for video broadcasting over the Internet. Use cases: see reviews of group users. Real-time interaction, engagement for young generation, to show social presence.
05:37:14 [tidoust]
... Implementation is difficult because you need to compute the positioning and animation of bullet chatting, rendered in DOM or Canvas and overlaid on top of the video.
05:37:24 [tidoust]
... Strong demand for this type of applications, particularly in Asia
05:37:56 [tidoust]
... Standardization would improve UX, reduce the difficulty in implementation.
05:38:13 [tidoust]
... We suggest to define a standard format for bullet curtain.
05:40:05 [tidoust]
... We started an analysis to identify gaps. No specific API introduced for the time being.
05:40:34 [tidoust]
... Bullet chatting is basically floating text over the screen with four attributes:
05:40:55 [tidoust]
... mode, basic properties, timeline, and container (typically the video)
05:41:28 [tidoust]
... [going through Bullet Chatting Proposal document]
05:42:18 [tidoust]
... During streaming, two main ways to present: chatting room or bullet chatting.
05:43:02 [kaz]
i/cpn: welcome and let's get started/scribenick: kaz/
05:43:07 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:43:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
05:43:25 [tidoust]
... Advantages of bullet chatting display are that there is a wider display area and it does not require the user to move her eyes.
05:44:51 [tidoust]
... The movement from right to left allows users to read content quickly (and again without moving her eyes).
05:45:37 [tidoust]
... Sometimes, it's not only about comments, it can be text to improve the feeling of horror videos for instance.
05:46:16 [tidoust]
... Also used to share messages in stadiums on a big wall.
05:46:31 [takio_]
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05:46:52 [kaz]
Chair: Chris, Igarashi, Pierre
05:47:20 [tidoust]
Michael: I'm from Dwango. Use cases and requirements for our current service Niconico.
05:47:54 [tidoust]
... Niconico is a streaming Web site launched in 2006. Since its inception, its unique feature has been its comment system.
05:49:22 [tidoust]
... [showing a demo]
05:49:33 [tidoust]
... allows to create a user experience.
05:49:54 [tidoust]
pal: Who specifies at what vertical position the bullet curtain appears?
05:50:06 [tidoust]
... Do you foresee that to be done at the client side?
05:50:14 [tidoust]
Song: No, done on the server side
05:50:33 [tidoust]
pal: So the format has all the positioning information.
05:51:26 [tidoust]
Michael: In the current implementation, clients do the rendering, and they all have the same algorithm, so deterministic.
05:51:26 [kaz]
present+ Mamoru_Takagi, Daiki_Matsui, Hiroaki_Shimano, Shinya_Abe, Yuki_Yamakami, Masayoshi_Onishi, Yongjun_Wu, David_Fazio, Florent_Castelli, Nonoka_Jinushi
05:51:53 [tidoust]
pal: If things were standardized at W3C, would the positioning be imposed by the server?
05:52:11 [tidoust]
Michael: Currently, we'd like the client to have the ability to position the comments.
05:52:44 [tidoust]
pal: So the client receives the comments and decides where to lay them out.
05:53:12 [tidoust]
igarashi: You want to let the browser do the whole rendering?
05:53:25 [tidoust]
Michael: No, the Web application.
05:53:30 [kaz]
q+
05:54:04 [tidoust]
... Goal of the standardization is to have a shared format for bullet curtains, because many providers have a similar comments system (Niconico, Bilibili, etc.)
05:54:39 [tidoust]
Song: First step is to define an interoperability format. If there is a way to involve the browser vendors, then great, second step.
05:55:00 [yajun_chen]
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05:55:07 [tidoust]
markw: Browsers would want to know why something cannot be done in JS.
05:55:28 [tidoust]
dsinger: And you could possibly do it with WebVTT / TTML.
05:56:22 [tidoust]
Song: For advanced features, there are things that TTML does not address. Happy to talk with TTML folks though.
05:57:11 [tidoust]
Michael: Use cases and requirements level for now. Possible solutions are still very early stage.
05:57:46 [tidoust]
... Bullet curtain allows to create feelings such as sharing content with friends.
05:58:07 [tidoust]
... Comments can be used to improve the video with artwork, or even to flood the video with comments.
05:58:26 [tidoust]
... Comments have become an important part of Niconico's culture.
05:58:41 [tidoust]
... Part of on-demand and live-streaming services of Niconico.
05:58:49 [hyojin]
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05:59:07 [tidoust]
... Comments move right to left across at set times, based on the media timeline.
05:59:16 [tidoust]
cpn: If I pause the video, do the comments pause?
05:59:20 [tidoust]
Michael: Yes.
05:59:54 [tidoust]
... Comments are clipped to the edge of the player (or to an arbitrary region).
06:00:11 [tidoust]
... When the video loads, comments are loaded from the server and rendered.
06:00:27 [tidoust]
... If a user submits a comment, it appears immediately to the user, and gets shared to other viewers.
06:00:28 [sudeep]
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06:00:57 [tidoust]
... Seeking to the same time in the same video will have the same comment appear at the same time and at the same position.
06:01:15 [tidoust]
... As if the comments were part of the video, comments scale with the video in particular.
06:01:31 [tidoust]
... Comments can be interactive (e.g. context menu)
06:01:40 [kaz]
q?
06:02:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #me
06:02:09 [kaz]
q+
06:02:32 [tidoust]
markw: Layout problem (HTML is good at it), animation problem (Web Animations), but the thing is Web Animations ties animations to the wall clock, whereas here animation is tied to the media clock.
06:02:50 [tidoust]
... That may be a useful gap to identify
06:03:18 [igarashi]
q+
06:03:24 [tidoust]
cpn: Came earlier during Francois' presentation. Tying non-media content rendering to media timeline.
06:04:01 [tidoust]
igarashi: Some requirements about positioning the subtitles.
06:04:14 [tidoust]
... Client decides arbitrary where to position the comments.
06:04:21 [tidoust]
Michael: Yes.
06:04:33 [tidoust]
igarashi: Content provider does not care about positioning of subtitles.
06:04:56 [tidoust]
sangwhan: Aside from Web, do you also want to handle support for native players?
06:05:03 [tidoust]
... That would change perspectives.
06:05:27 [tidoust]
Michael: We do have native apps, so we'd be interested with a solution that covers that space too.
06:06:06 [tidoust]
sangwhan: According to Mark's idea, if it's tied to the animation timeline in browsers, you're restricting yourself to Web environment.
06:06:24 [tidoust]
ack kaz
06:07:01 [kaz]
ack iga
06:07:04 [tidoust]
kaz: When I talked to Niconico, he mentioned extension about tiles
06:07:20 [kaz]
s/Nikoniko/Koizuka-san from Nikoniko/
06:07:44 [yyuki]
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06:07:55 [yyuki]
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06:08:22 [kaz]
s/extension about tiles/extension mechanism named "Niko-script", and that mechanism has capability of specifying style and position of captions. so that capability could be also considered at some point. maybe not now, though./
06:08:34 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:08:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
06:10:00 [MarkVickers]
I'm not staying connected for the joint meetings. Have a good TPAC all! -mav
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06:37:47 [tidoust]
Topic: Joint meeting with Second Screen WG/CG
06:38:27 [tidoust]
cpn: The Second Screen WG/CG made a lot of progress on the Open Screen Protocol for discovering, authenticating and controlling remote displays on the local network.
06:38:48 [Youngsun_Ryu]
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06:39:18 [anssik]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
06:39:30 [glenn]
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06:39:35 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: I work for Google. Been involved in Second Screen since 2015. Second screen for the Web is the way we want to enable Web applications to take advantage of connected displays/speakers and render different types of content.
06:39:47 [tidoust]
... Content can be a full Web page or specific media.
06:40:13 [tidoust]
... The Presentation API enables a web page, called the controller, to request display of an URL on a remote display on the LAN.
06:40:49 [tak]
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06:41:21 [tidoust]
... Example of a photo app that displays the loaded picture on a large display. You can play media, do gaming, collaboration tools. Pretty agnostic, but our experience shows that it's mainly used for media playback.
06:42:33 [tidoust]
... The Remote Playback API allows a web page on which there is a media element to remote the playback of the media element on a second screen, either through media flinging where the URL to play gets sent to the remote device, or media remoting where the media gets streamed to the second screen.
06:42:50 [tidoust]
... Both APIs are in Chrome.
06:43:26 [lilin]
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06:44:09 [tidoust]
... The APIs were designed to take advantage of proprietary protocols. To get broad adoption, we decided to develop an open set of protocols so that implementers could all support the APIs in an interoperable way.
06:44:30 [tidoust]
... We hope to converge at the end of the Second Screen F2F meeting this week to v1.0 of the Open Screen Protocol.
06:45:14 [tidoust]
... One use case for the future: enabling Web applications to generate their own media and present it to a connected display, e.g. for gaming.
06:45:24 [ak]
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06:45:40 [tidoust]
... The Open Screen Protocol supports all sorts of use cases that we hope to expose to Web applications in the future.
06:47:16 [tidoust]
Yongsun: Support of QUIC in smart TVs. UDP is not supported in some TVs.
06:47:28 [tidoust]
sangwhan: UDP is supported at the kernel level.
06:47:58 [kaz]
present+ Yajun_Chen
06:48:02 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: in our library implementation, we expose UDP but that's pretty much the same thing as what you get at the system level.
06:48:17 [kaz]
remote+ Yajun_Chen
06:48:24 [kaz]
present- Yajun_Chen
06:49:12 [tidoust]
cpn: One of the question that came up in our previous F2F meeting is around synchronization, e.g. ability to provide audio description on their device while they are sharing a media element on a second screen.
06:49:17 [kaz]
present+ Takio_Yamaoka, Akihiko_Koizuka, Keiichi_Suzuki, Michael_Li, Takahiro_Kumekawa, Chris_Cunningham, Taki_Kamiya, Jeff_Jaffe, David_Singer, Glenn_Adams
06:49:42 [tidoust]
... Within that, there is the question of how close the synchronization needs to be.
06:50:09 [tidoust]
... We worked on close synchronization between main screen and companion device in HbbTV.
06:50:25 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Does the HbbTV specification rely on clocks?
06:50:50 [tidoust]
cpn: Yes, clock synchronization and then the devices can make adjustments to playback to stay in sync.
06:51:23 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: We need a mechanism for the two sides agree on a wall clock for presentation.
06:51:41 [tidoust]
... If the HbbTV covers all of that, we can have a look for OSP.
06:51:49 [tidoust]
cpn: Yes, it does.
06:52:09 [kaz]
present+ Hyojin_Song, Francois_Daoust, Ken_Komatsu, Toshiya_Nakakura, Jonathan_Devlin, Amit_Hilbuch, Steve_Anton, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Daniel_Peintner
06:52:11 [anssik]
Open Screen Protocol issue Requirements for multi-device timing while streaming https://github.com/webscreens/openscreenprotocol/issues/195
06:52:21 [tidoust]
... Some implementers have found it difficult to achieve that level of synchronization. It's not so widely implemented for now.
06:52:29 [tidoust]
... I can provide information on how that has been done.
06:52:45 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Collaboration between the protocol and the application levels.
06:53:03 [tidoust]
cpn: And also something that exposes the pipeline delays.
06:53:55 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: One of the things that seem very important is the establishment of a secure communication between devices, which could have broader implications, such as connected home scenarios.
06:54:31 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: it could be a good foundation for that. Part of the OSP focus has been on authenticating devices, currently based on SPAKE2.
06:55:07 [tidoust]
... We're not currently focused on enabling one piece of software to find out attributes of another, for instance who manufactured it, what does it do.
06:55:08 [anssik]
SPAKE2 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-spake2/
06:55:39 [tidoust]
... You could take the chapter on authentication and use it elsewhere.
06:56:07 [tidoust]
... We did anticipate that there may be other use cases than the ones we foresee, so have landed an extensibility mechanism.
06:56:22 [tidoust]
sangwhan: Is there a registry for these capabilities?
06:56:31 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Yes, it's on GitHub.
06:56:55 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:56:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html kaz
06:57:00 [tidoust]
... You can be a presentation controller, receiver, send or receive media, that's all negotiable in the OSP.
06:57:33 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #me
06:57:49 [tidoust]
cpn: I suspect remote playback of encrypted content is a use case shared by different members here.
06:58:35 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: The API is pretty much agnostic. At the protocol level, we haven't tried to add support for messages to exchange to support encrypted media.
06:59:31 [tidoust]
... That seems more to be a use case for the Presentation API where the application can create and exchange application-specific message commands.
07:00:01 [tidoust]
... Remote playback of encrypted media is closely tied to credentials, and that's application level.
07:01:09 [tidoust]
markw: The thing that you don't have here is the streaming model where the controlling device has the decryption key and wants to stream the content to the receiver device.
07:01:53 [Joshue108]
Joshue108 has joined #me
07:01:57 [tidoust]
markw: What happens to the media stream when it reaches the receiver? Goes to a media element or through JS processing?
07:02:19 [tidoust]
Peter: receiver is handling the decoding.
07:02:41 [tidoust]
cpn: Is there an IG recommendation that we'd want to make?
07:03:23 [tidoust]
markw: The most likely model for us for doing this would be to have a receiving web application that handles the user's credentials
07:03:53 [tidoust]
cpn: That would make the sync issue interesting because it is then at the application level.
07:04:46 [tidoust]
... One of the issues we have with Remote Playback is that we want to provide a custom UI, which means that we rather want to use the Presentation API for that.
07:05:19 [tidoust]
... Didn't we discuss having a Media element through the Presentation API that gets automatically synchronized with local content?
07:05:29 [NJ]
NJ has joined #me
07:05:57 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: I believe that's correct. I don't recall the status of it. It came up in May 2018, I think.
07:05:59 [anssik]
Second Screen May 2019 F2F https://www.w3.org/wiki/Second_Screen/Meetings/May_2019_F2F
07:07:33 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: I think we probably agreed that it should be possible. It probably requires a few tweaks to the protocol so that it knows that the remoting is part of a shared presentation.
07:07:37 [igarashi]
q+
07:08:50 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: We discussed whether everything could be done in script. Same recommendation for synchronization. What you might be missing is the latency of the media rendering pipeline.
07:08:57 [samira]
samira has joined #me
07:09:21 [tidoust]
cpn: I have seen implementations that manage to do synchronized playback across devices through a timing server.
07:09:25 [tidoust]
ack igarashi
07:09:42 [JohnRiv]
JohnRiv has joined #me
07:09:57 [tidoust]
igarashi: I don't follow the discussion on encrypted media. You are not going to define how keys are exchanged in the protocol?
07:11:13 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Someone with more experience on EME might be able to shed some lights as to what would be required.
07:12:01 [tidoust]
... One reason we designed an extension system is that people interested in new features can propose them, prototype implementations, and then we can incorporate them in the spec if all goes fine. We don't have the expertise in the group.
07:12:19 [nigel]
nigel has joined #me
07:12:34 [nigel]
present+ Nigel_Megitt
07:12:36 [tidoust]
... We're not defining the path for encrypted media from one device with another. Might work if both devices support HDCP.
07:12:41 [nigel]
rrsagent, pointer
07:12:41 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-irc#T07-12-41
07:12:58 [tidoust]
... I think there is an open issue in our GitHub about remote playback and encrypted media.
07:14:11 [cpn]
rrsagent, make log public
07:14:19 [tidoust]
igarashi: Arbitrary application message passing is supported?
07:14:28 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Yes.
07:15:08 [cpn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:15:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html cpn
07:15:18 [tidoust]
... In the spec, you'll see bindings between the API and the messages exchanged in the protocol.
07:15:46 [tidoust]
... For instance, video.remote.prompt() requires exchanges messages between devices
07:16:30 [tidoust]
markw: Could the protocol work on TCP?
07:16:41 [tidoust]
Peter: You'd have to advertise it differently
07:17:25 [glenn]
glenn has joined #me
07:17:40 [tidoust]
igarashi: [question on security during remote playback]
07:18:22 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: the Remote Playback API does not require the receiver to be a user agent in the usual sense, it does require the receiver to support media playback as in the HTML spec.
07:19:14 [tidoust]
markw: The Presentation API requires the receiver to be able to render the URL, but the URL could be a non HTTP URL, custom schemes may be supported instead.
07:20:10 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: The spec defines processing of HTTPS URL, the rest is undefined.
07:20:30 [anssik]
Open Screen Protocol https://github.com/webscreens/openscreenprotocol/
07:20:30 [tidoust]
... We have a writeup of how the protocol interacts with custom schemes in the GitHub repo.
07:21:07 [tidoust]
cpn: That has been one of the extension mechanisms that we've been interested in for opening a Web page that has broadcast capability in HbbTV (perhaps Hybridcast has similar needs)
07:22:25 [anssik]
Custom Schemes and Open Screen Protocol https://github.com/webscreens/openscreenprotocol/blob/gh-pages/schemes.md
07:22:40 [tidoust]
[discussion on second screen support in Hybridcast]
07:24:05 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: regarding authentication, we looked at J-PAKE and request/response challenges but we had memory concerns there so switched to SPAKE2 following internal discussion with security experts at Google.
07:24:20 [tidoust]
Peter: The protocol allows for more authentication mechanisms in the future.
07:24:31 [tidoust]
... Devices can support their own mechanism.
07:25:17 [tidoust]
igarashi: Co-chair of HTTPS in local network CG, meeting on Thursday morning. We haven't reached discussion on authentication. Would be good to align with Open Screen Protocol.
07:25:29 [tidoust]
sangwhan: Is there a prototype?
07:26:28 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: We recently decided to add streaming to the OSP, which complicated things. We have a first implementation of Presentation API commands. No crypto because we've kept changing that.
07:27:00 [tidoust]
... The library is coming. It implements the protocol. It does not do media rendering, it does not have JS bindings, etc.
07:27:52 [anssik]
Open Screen Library implementation https://chromium.googlesource.com/openscreen/
07:28:01 [tidoust]
igarashi: If you want to apply the OSP to the broadcast protocol, we need to consider the case where the remote device is not a browser. For instance, channel change is done by the system, not the application.
07:28:57 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Capabilities like supporting channel tuning is not in the OSP. If you think that the communication channel needs to be terminated on channel change, that can be added.
07:29:40 [tidoust]
igarashi: In the case that some arbitrary message protocol is still necessary, you'd use the Presentation API, but the receiver may not be a browser agent.
07:29:50 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: seems like something for an extension.
07:30:03 [tidoust]
cpn: OK, thank you for the discussion.
07:30:37 [tidoust]
mfoltzgoogle: Mostly, we want input on use cases that we haven't considered yet. We'd love to get feedback on the extension mechanism as well.
07:30:41 [tidoust]
pal: Thank you.
07:31:35 [tidoust]
Topic: Joint meeting with Timed Text WG
07:32:19 [tidoust]
andreas: We could start with 360 standardization
07:32:42 [tidoust]
nigel: In TTWG, we're in the final stages of rechartering.
07:33:01 [tidoust]
... Some things that we're considering such as karaoke.
07:34:34 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Accessible_RTC_Use_Cases
07:34:41 [tidoust]
... Quick agenda bashing, any topic you'd like to cover?
07:34:54 [tidoust]
Josh: accessibility use cases? See accessible RTC use cases document
07:35:04 [tidoust]
cpn: TTML and MSE?
07:35:48 [tidoust]
nigel: Yes, opinions about exposing TextTracks from MSE.
07:37:09 [Joshue108]
apologises for throwing a curve ball to Nigel, I'm here for the XR bit but think this doc may still be useful as an FYI
07:37:19 [angel]
angel has joined #me
07:37:31 [angel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:37:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html angel
07:38:03 [tidoust]
andreas: Focus the discussion of the day on standardization of 360 subtitles. Most of the stuff comes from an EU research project.
07:39:01 [tidoust]
... To make it short, there have been extensive user tests. For captions, main requirement is to have subtitles that are always in the field of view. It's enough to have them on a 2D plane, no need to have them positioned in 3D.
07:39:22 [tidoust]
... There should be some indication of where the audio source is positioned.
07:39:38 [samira]
samira has joined #me
07:39:48 [tidoust]
... Of course, you also need features present in TTML, TTML-IMSC profile being a good example.
07:41:00 [tidoust]
... [demo of an application to test subtitles positioning]
07:42:55 [tidoust]
... Lots of activity starting last year at TPAC. We started with a discussion in the Immersive Web CG. Then discussion within the TTWG, Media & Entertainment IG.
07:43:16 [tidoust]
... In the end, we realized we needed more people from immersive and browser vendors.
07:43:30 [tidoust]
... We wrote a proposal to be discussed in the WICG.
07:43:47 [tidoust]
... There has been no comment on the WICG forum yet, so question is how do we proceed?
07:44:45 [tidoust]
... Two additional activities worth noting. A colleague from Google proposed the creation of an Immersive Caption Community Group, and XR accessibility W3C workshop in November.
07:44:58 [tidoust]
... There is awareness that something needs to be done.
07:45:12 [tidoust]
... Hard to get enough resources to get started though.
07:45:31 [tidoust]
... How to get time and resources from implementors?
07:45:33 [Joshue108]
Inclusive Design for Immersive Web Standards W3C Workshop Seattle Nov 5-6
07:45:35 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/2019/08/inclusive-xr-workshop/
07:45:47 [tidoust]
... Everything is evolving, nothing really fixed.
07:45:48 [nigel]
q+ to ask what is the state of documentation of the requirements right now
07:45:56 [tidoust]
... Is it really a web platform topic?
07:46:18 [tidoust]
... Important to know when to stop if there is not enough interest.
07:46:28 [glenn]
glenn has joined #me
07:46:43 [tidoust]
... Apart from which group should deal with it, the question is also where does this solution fit?
07:46:46 [yajun_ch_]
yajun_ch_ has joined #me
07:47:37 [tidoust]
... Authoring environments (Unity, Unreal), Web applications, WebXR API (linked to OpenXR) and 360 / XR device
07:48:25 [tidoust]
... How to follow-up? I thought WICG would be the right place, but if there is not enough place, there is still the question of whether that's the right place. Not sure about Immersive Caption CG since it does not exist yet.
07:48:37 [angel_]
angel_ has joined #me
07:48:38 [tidoust]
... TTWG is the right group but we need more expertise from the XR world.
07:49:00 [tidoust]
... Another solution is to continue the work in a "private" repository.
07:49:02 [tidoust]
ack nigel
07:49:03 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to ask what is the state of documentation of the requirements right now
07:49:11 [samira]
q+
07:49:20 [tidoust]
nigel: What is the state of documentation in terms of the requirements?
07:49:21 [kaz]
q+
07:49:22 [Joshue108]
q+
07:49:40 [tidoust]
... Describing positioning in 3D space, can I do it with audio?
07:50:38 [Takio]
Takio has joined #me
07:50:39 [tidoust]
andreas: There are documented user tests, as part of an European project deliverable.
07:51:33 [tidoust]
nigel: I was thinking about requirements documentation. What is the problem that you're trying to solve, user needs.
07:52:16 [tidoust]
ack samira
07:52:38 [igarashi]
q+
07:52:38 [tidoust]
samira: Who was the person who started the Immersive Caption Community Group?
07:52:54 [tidoust]
andreas: [missed name]
07:53:13 [tidoust]
samira: OK. Another comment is that WebXR is becoming more stable.
07:53:20 [cpn]
s/[missed name]/Christopher Patnoe at Google/
07:53:43 [tidoust]
andreas: Yes, the question for me is where should this go.
07:54:21 [tidoust]
... The WebXR API does not know anything about what's inside the WebGL right now.
07:54:38 [tidoust]
cpn: Is all that's needed a delivery format and then some library can place that in the immersive environment?
07:55:28 [tidoust]
igarashi: Do we need to extend APIs in the browser to support this?
07:55:44 [igarashi]
-q
07:56:03 [Manishearth]
Manishearth has joined #me
07:56:04 [tidoust]
andreas: OMAF defines a way to multiplex IMSC subtitles with MP4, but then it's all bound to that content format. Not sure it's sufficient for interoperability scenarios.
07:56:16 [Manishearth]
Manishearth has left #me
07:56:17 [igarashi]
+q
07:56:42 [tidoust]
ack kaz
07:57:26 [tidoust]
kaz: Is it related to WebVMT?
07:57:54 [tidoust]
Francois: WebVMT is about tracks positioned on a map, not in 360 videos.
07:58:12 [cpn__]
cpn__ has joined #me
07:59:00 [Joshue108]
ack me
07:59:02 [tidoust]
q+
07:59:03 [suzuki]
suzuki has joined #me
07:59:22 [tidoust]
andreas: It would be an option to have a subtitle format, but burning captions in a frame does not provide good user experience.
07:59:55 [tidoust]
josh: Looking at things from an accessibility perspective. APA would seem a good group to talk to.
08:00:05 [tidoust]
andreas: We talked a lot with Judy, Janina and so on.
08:00:10 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Xaur_draft
08:00:19 [cpn__]
q?
08:00:27 [tidoust]
josh: We created a list of requirements for XR in APA.
08:01:15 [samira]
IW group is also discussing dom overlays so this is another option for subtitles
08:01:51 [tidoust]
pal: How many people in this group doing 360 videos and XR content?
08:02:08 [tidoust]
... One possibility is that this group is not the best group to get feedback from.
08:02:20 [tidoust]
andreas: I don't know, that's what all groups say ;)
08:02:34 [yy]
yy has joined #me
08:02:41 [tidoust]
... We need a critical mass to do it.
08:03:09 [tidoust]
pal: People that build apps for Oculus, are they around?
08:03:34 [tidoust]
andreas: I spoke to some of them. They always say that they don't provide subtitles.
08:03:52 [tidoust]
... Some discussion in Khronos with Unity and Epic.
08:03:53 [kaz]
s/is it related to WebVMT?/wondering about the possible relationship with WebVMT (because 360 video could be mapped with some kind of map image)/
08:04:51 [tidoust]
... I talked with Immersive Web folks. We'll talk about that on Wednesday 11:00 during Samira's breakout session.
08:05:03 [nigel]
q?
08:05:35 [tidoust]
... The issue that we have is that there is not endless time to deal with it. The project is running out. It stops next year. To push a standard, it will take 2-3 more years.
08:06:36 [tidoust]
ack igarashi
08:06:41 [Joshue108]
There are very few testing with people with disabilities in this space so this is very interesting.
08:06:59 [tidoust]
igarashi: From a content production perspective, I'm interested in a format, but not sure about browser support for this.
08:07:38 [tidoust]
ack tidoust
08:08:05 [tidoust]
https://github.com/immersive-web/dom-overlays
08:08:28 [nigel]
q+ to wonder what the smallest thing is that we need to standardise first - is it a syntax for expressing a 3D location?
08:09:28 [tidoust]
Francois: Not clear to me what you want to be standardized. DOM overlays could be one building block.
08:10:18 [tidoust]
andreas: Yes, DOM overlays may be a good way forward to render captioning thatn burning things in WebGL.
08:10:23 [tidoust]
ack nigel
08:10:23 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to wonder what the smallest thing is that we need to standardise first - is it a syntax for expressing a 3D location?
08:10:50 [Joshue108]
+1 to Nigel
08:11:09 [tidoust]
nigel: Same point. Do we have agreement that it's about a syntax for expressing a 3D location?
08:11:37 [tidoust]
andreas: Actually, that's not what we need, since we want it to appear on a 2D plane, that is what the users want.
08:12:02 [tidoust]
... We need a way to indicate where in the 3D space the audio source is coming from.
08:12:06 [Joshue108]
q+
08:12:31 [tidoust]
Gary: So you need some positioning in 3D to make that possible.
08:12:54 [tidoust]
andreas: Define a good container is another issue.
08:13:06 [Joshue108]
ack me
08:13:21 [glenn]
q+
08:13:34 [tidoust]
Josh: in the User requirements document I showed you, we took a module approach.
08:13:48 [tidoust]
... This architecture does not exist yet.
08:13:58 [nigel]
s/module/modular
08:14:08 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Media_in_XR
08:14:23 [tidoust]
... We're also looking at Media requirements in XR. Not vetted by the APA WG yet.
08:15:09 [tidoust]
andreas: Lots of 360 content for the time being, and a lot of it without captioning.
08:15:13 [Joshue108]
s/module approach/modular approach
08:16:02 [tidoust]
Gary: WebVTT update. I joined TTWG half a year ago. Trying to get WebVTT to progress. One of the big thing is an implementation report exists right now.
08:16:14 [tidoust]
... Something like 6-7 issues with it.
08:16:15 [atai]
Link to 360 subtitle requirement https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/40
08:16:55 [tidoust]
... Basically, we're looking at features implemented in browsers and in VLC. Then identify features at risk, and possibly remove them to get a V1 out.
08:17:24 [tidoust]
... Then hopefully convince browser vendors to implement the features that we may remove.
08:17:36 [yajun_chen]
yajun_chen has joined #me
08:17:40 [gkatsev]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/WebVTT_Implementation_Report WebVTT Implementation Report
08:17:54 [nigel]
q?
08:18:05 [tidoust]
ack glenn
08:18:38 [tidoust]
glenn: Any SMPTE spec that includes positioning of subtitles?
08:18:44 [tidoust]
nigel: That's a good question.
08:19:26 [tidoust]
... One of the things we're doing around TTML2 is adding new functionality in extension modules. We're trying to constrain the core, and then provide the rest in extensions.
08:19:29 [glenn]
s/positioning of subtitles/3d positions of audio sources/
08:19:48 [tidoust]
... There are a few ones that are ongoing.
08:21:10 [tidoust]
... [details extensions]
08:21:43 [tidoust]
... Right now, audio/video comes to MSE but not text.
08:22:16 [tidoust]
markw: My personal position is that things should be symmetrical across media types.
08:22:37 [tidoust]
... At least in our application, we prefer to do the rendering of text tracks ourselves.
08:22:56 [tidoust]
... It would be advantageous in which the browser is aware of text tracks.
08:23:13 [tidoust]
nigel: You said my sentiment much better than I could.
08:23:40 [tidoust]
Gregg: I would argue that we don't want to render them ourselves, but we still want to control the rendering with our styles.
08:24:05 [tidoust]
markw: Yes, we want to have enough control of the rendering, but we could offload the rendering to the browser, that would be great.
08:24:47 [tidoust]
nigel: It's been hard to get statistics about user customization, or people that play back content with captions.
08:25:10 [tidoust]
markw: In terms of rendering, you would still want the site to control enabling/disabling.
08:25:34 [atai]
+1
08:25:42 [markw]
markw has joined #me
08:26:21 [kumekawa]
kumekawa has joined #me
08:26:21 [tidoust]
Gary: We shouldn't try to do the same thing twice. If there's more support to do the new generic TextTrack thing, then that's good.
08:27:02 [tidoust]
pal: Two different questions: any objection to enabling symmetry in MSE? Are you going to use it?
08:27:27 [tidoust]
markw: First question is whether people think that could be harmful.
08:28:11 [takio__]
takio__ has joined #me
08:28:29 [tidoust]
nigel: OK, I just wanted to raise it to get feedback.
08:29:12 [tidoust]
[No concerns expressed regarding question on whether people think that could be harmful]
08:30:00 [tidoust]
Josh: About accessibility in WebRTC use cases, challenge of synchronizing some of these things together when switching to a different modality. That's one.
08:31:15 [tidoust]
nigel: It would make sense to talk about live contribution to see where that fits. How does live contributions actually work, what's the mental model?
08:31:33 [tidoust]
... Alright, I think we covered all topics.
08:31:40 [tidoust]
Topic: Closing and wrap-up
08:32:59 [tidoust]
cpn: Thinking about Media Timed Events, some editorial work. Planned discussion on DataCue. Around bullet chatting, more conversation will happen this week.
08:33:25 [tidoust]
... Some possibility to go to Timed Text WG.
08:33:53 [tidoust]
nigel: It feels to me that this IG could be a better home for that if there's no clarity in TTWG on Friday about that.
08:34:08 [tidoust]
andreas: Can you explain again how you want to proceed?
08:34:22 [nigel]
s/a better home/the best place to give guidance
08:34:22 [tidoust]
... Draft published in the Chinese IG, what would the ideal next step be?
08:35:11 [tidoust]
song: Initially, contributors were from China. Now that NikoNiko is engaged in discussions, work could go to TTWG, or perhaps in another group.
08:35:47 [tidoust]
... We want the use cases to be approved by the IG, afterwards we'd like to push standardization work on identified gaps.
08:36:06 [tidoust]
... Within the next few weeks, we'll have a last version of the use cases.
08:36:39 [tidoust]
andreas: OK, so this week would be a good opportunity to decide where this should go.
08:36:54 [nigel]
c/NikoNiko/Niconico
08:36:58 [tidoust]
cpn: We had a lot of discussion around synchronization today. Frame accurate rendering.
08:37:18 [tidoust]
... Ability to seek accurately within videos.
08:37:31 [tidoust]
... Some interest to follow-up, although no one volunteers.
08:37:59 [tidoust]
... The media production use case that Pierre presented would be a good perspective to address this.
08:38:18 [tidoust]
pal: With an action on Gary to follow up with a colleague on that.
08:38:40 [nigel]
s/a colleague/Garrett Singer
08:40:05 [tidoust]
cpn: Secure communications between devices, we heard interesting stuff from Hybridcast and HTTPS in local network, and Second Screen. Interesting set of approaches that could be compared.
08:40:23 [tidoust]
... Seems like a good fit for HTTPS in local network CG discussions.
08:41:49 [tidoust]
... Clearly the immersive captioning is interesting, but not sure what next step in this group should be. Maybe the Immersive Captioning CG could be the right forum.
08:43:16 [tidoust]
... We talked about 360 videos. That's something that the IG could follow on. We have liaison with MPEG. Unless you feel that immersive group would be a better home.
08:43:26 [tidoust]
Samira: Possibly. At this point, I'm gathering input.
08:44:06 [tidoust]
cpn: Finally, there's the timed text in MSE proposal. Would that sit in TTWG?
08:44:13 [tidoust]
markw: It would be in scope of the Media WG.
08:44:22 [tidoust]
cpn: Have I missed anything from the summary?
08:44:56 [tidoust]
pal: One encouragement for you to clarify the scope in Media Timed Events.
08:45:27 [tidoust]
cpn: And also possibly make more specific recommendations.
08:45:36 [tidoust]
pal: I think it helps to have something concrete.
08:45:50 [tidoust]
cpn: OK, I think that's everything, thank for your presence today!
08:45:58 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:45:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html tidoust
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-me-minutes.html cpn
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rrsagent, make log public
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