IRC log of audio on 2019-09-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 00:26:19 [RRSAgent]
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- 00:26:19 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/16-audio-irc
- 00:26:21 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 00:26:21 [Zakim]
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- 00:26:23 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
- 00:26:23 [trackbot]
- Date: 16 September 2019
- 00:26:28 [chris]
- trackbot, start telcon
- 00:26:31 [rtoyg_m2]
- present+ rtoyg_m2
- 00:26:31 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 00:26:34 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
- 00:26:34 [trackbot]
- Date: 16 September 2019
- 00:26:44 [chris]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 00:27:22 [mdjp]
- rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
- 00:29:32 [mdjp]
- hoch: not much to report from google on implementation, some optimisations and clarifications. Still missing output latency and media stream track.
- 00:30:28 [mdjp]
- padenot: Missing audioworklet, implementation in progress. CancelAndHold being implemented, waiting on clear spec for algorythm.
- 00:31:35 [mdjp]
- padenot aw, missing message port, some queations around this.
- 00:34:30 [chris]
- jer: our implementation has not been updated for at least a year, we have ery few resources but don't oppose this
- 00:34:44 [chris]
- https://github.com/w3cping/tracking-issues/issues/13
- 00:35:32 [chris]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2061
- 00:36:59 [mdjp]
- mdjp aim to republish updated CR during TPAC
- 00:37:33 [mdjp]
- chris blocker is issue #2061 privacy review
- 00:40:29 [mdjp]
- issue #2069, is this required for V1. padenot it is late for the spec but potentially a problem
- 00:43:57 [mdjp]
- karlt joins meeting remotely
- 00:46:08 [mdjp]
- karlt there was a chance to make this easier. Might be hard to spec this around message port.
- 00:48:50 [mdjp]
- padenot this is a big change karlt what is the implications padenot chrome is already shipping, concerns about compatibility.
- 00:56:05 [mdjp]
- padenot something like, when we would not call process again we could automatically close the mp karlt so we define when close is called. I considered this but nodes should be reusable so we do not know when this would happen to close automatically
- 00:57:39 [mdjp]
- mdjp if we defer this what are the issues in coming back to it in the future. karlt we would have compatibility issues
- 00:58:12 [mdjp]
- padenot this is a serious issue - multiple audio nodes, and cannot dispose
- 00:58:32 [mdjp]
- hoch worker does not have this problems, does not expose mp object itself?
- 00:58:50 [mdjp]
- padenot how do you send between processes hoch worker inherits from mp
- 00:59:44 [mdjp]
- hoch aim to talk to chrome worker team
- 01:00:28 [rtoyg_m3]
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- 01:00:38 [mdjp]
- karlt we are working on it - network issue....
- 01:01:29 [mdjp]
- padenot in a worker you can reinstantiate a message channel - so same situation exists and people need to be aware of this, objects must be disposed of manually
- 01:02:01 [mdjp]
- karlt good point, we would only be fixing one usecase but the problem still exists elsewhere. Outying cases would still be an issue
- 01:02:21 [mdjp]
- padenot anyone who wants to do something bad will still be able to this is a fundmental issue
- 01:03:21 [mdjp]
- padenot might want to take input from people who have been dealing with message channel and gc
- 01:03:39 [mdjp]
- padenot will write summary and request more input
- 01:07:06 [hoch]
- https://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/popularity
- 01:07:41 [hoch]
- To sum up: V8MessageChannel constructor = ~40%, V8AudioContext constructor = ~4%, V8GainNode constructor= ~1.2%
- 01:08:05 [hoch]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2051
- 01:10:48 [hoch]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2047
- 01:12:27 [mdjp]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+no%3Amilestone
- 01:23:11 [hoch]
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- 01:32:58 [padenot]
- 15min break
- 01:33:24 [mdjp]
- Agenda https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/F2F_Sep_2019
- 01:33:30 [hoch]
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- 02:00:14 [padenot]
- sangwhan, we'll discuss this in a minute, thanks
- 02:00:48 [sangwhan]
- padenot: thanks!
- 02:02:27 [hoch]
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- 02:03:41 [mdjp]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1967
- 02:15:18 [mdjp]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2008
- 02:17:20 [mdjp]
- hoch fundamental issue touching event loop spec
- 02:25:51 [padenot]
- sangwhan, we dont' think we _need_ TAG presence at this stage V2, but TAG presence could be useful when talking about the `AudioDeviceClient` proposal, https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-cg/tree/master/audio-device-client
- 02:28:15 [padenot]
- karlt, audio issues
- 02:28:32 [mdjp]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1933
- 02:31:25 [sangwhan]
- padenot: roger that, will show up sometime during your allocated meeting time in that case
- 02:32:28 [padenot]
- sangwhan, do you have the agenda handy? https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/F2F_Sep_2019 is the link, basically 11am tomorrow
- 02:32:33 [Zakim]
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- 02:33:58 [sangwhan]
- padenot: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Media_WG/TPAC/2019 seems to be what I have
- 02:39:28 [padenot]
- that's the media wg, which is thursday/friday, in #mediawg
- 02:53:26 [hoch]
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- 02:53:39 [padenot]
- breaking for lunch, 1h
- 03:32:49 [hoch]
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- 04:10:11 [rtoyg_m2]
- scribenick: rtoyg_m2
- 04:10:27 [rtoyg_m2]
- scribe: rtoyg_m2
- 04:12:27 [rtoyg_m2]
- V2: Decide what V2 means and what the goals are.
- 04:12:37 [ruth_john]
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- 04:13:16 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: What is V2? First off, incremental changes to V1.
- 04:13:52 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: V1 has worklets. What counts as V2 that can be added even if worklets can do that.
- 04:14:29 [hoch]
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- 04:14:47 [hoch]
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- 04:15:16 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Where is that boundary? Some things naturally make sense even if it's easy to do with worklets. Items only benefit one person maybe not so much.
- 04:16:03 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Should get feedback from developers too.
- 04:16:18 [chris]
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- 04:16:28 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: We're pretty clear what's in V1. When does V2 start?
- 04:17:29 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Two ways to do this. Fork the spec. Add a separate spec.
- 04:18:35 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: Likes 2 specs. Will we keep them separate?
- 04:18:49 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Yes, but eventually merge into one bigger spec.
- 04:18:57 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: What about community input?
- 04:19:16 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Yes, but primarily driven by working group.
- 04:20:05 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Have just one WG call and more CG calls.
- 04:21:31 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Group is small, so nice to have external viewpoints into the spec. This is what CG is for.
- 04:22:38 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Clarify: Incremental update of V1, handled by WG. But CG to help incubate new ideas.
- 04:27:02 [hoch]
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- 04:28:03 [rtoyg_m2]
- concensus: Create a new repository for V2. Move over issues to V2.
- 04:29:31 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Use project board; minimize use of labels except when necessary.
- 04:30:05 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Creates a new web-audio-api-v2 repository for new work.
- 04:30:40 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: What about milestones?
- 04:31:16 [saschanaz]
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- 04:33:06 [rtoyg_m2]
- concensus: No milestones; new stuff goes to vnext project board.
- 04:33:25 [rtoyg_m2]
- (In webaudio-api repi, not v2 repo).
- 04:34:24 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: No. vnext board should be in v2 repo.
- 04:34:51 [rtoyg_m2]
- concensus: Yes.
- 04:44:52 [rtoyg_m2]
- That works. We can do that.
- 04:45:47 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: and others discussing how to do a hard-sync of two oscillators.
- 04:48:11 [rtoyg_m2]
- Needs design work. Different approaches suggested, tending towards using an AudioParam to control the sync.
- 04:48:19 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: In v2?
- 04:48:32 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Yes.
- 04:52:30 [mdjp]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1803
- 04:52:55 [rtoyg_m2]
- High priority V2 issues: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A"High+Priority+V2"
- 04:58:02 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: We don't need to decide how to do it (issue 1803). Just need to decide if we want to consider it for v2.
- 04:58:37 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Can it be done with existing stuff?
- 04:59:08 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: TAG feedback said being able to compose nodes is useful.
- 05:00:22 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: In favor to V2? In v2 doesn't require us to do it in V2.
- 05:00:51 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Needs to be "under consideration" label.
- 05:02:48 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1791
- 05:02:55 [rtoyg_m2]
- Move to V2.
- 05:03:07 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1443
- 05:04:53 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Depends on some external dependencies for WASM.
- 05:05:20 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Luke says it's possible to register things for the WASM heap/views to handle things.
- 05:07:59 [rtoyg_m2]
- Moved to V2 for further discussion.
- 05:08:57 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: One way is C/C++ style where functions don't allocate it's own memory. Pass in a pointer to memory.
- 05:09:25 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Common case us big pile of WASM code.
- 05:09:33 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Should work.
- 05:15:47 [rtoyg_m2]
- karlt: Suggests a new register processor method geared more to WASM by having a callback instead of full class
- 05:15:56 [rtoyg_m2]
- karlt: Will add comments about this in the issue.
- 05:18:00 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1279
- 05:20:02 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Like Jer's idea.
- 05:20:33 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: But startRendering() continues from last time.
- 05:20:46 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Yes, we'll need a new method.
- 05:21:32 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/783
- 05:21:44 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Proposed IDL looks fine.
- 05:22:51 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/705
- 05:38:50 [chris]
- https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_pinknoise.php vs https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_greynoise.php with fletcher-munsen equalization :)
- 05:39:03 [rtoyg_m2]
- General discussion on why this is useful and can't be done in a worklet.
- 05:39:19 [rtoyg_m2]
- jer: Suggested doing this in a library.
- 05:40:16 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: Agreed but wanted to control exactly what the output is guarantee identical output.
- 05:40:27 [rtoyg_m2]
- Jer: Agrees that's a good reason to specify this as builtin.
- 05:40:43 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/541
- 05:45:58 [rtoyg_m2]
- General agreement we want this because other systems have this important feature.
- 05:45:59 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/445
- 05:46:17 [hta]
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- 05:47:23 [hoch]
- Reference: https://www.w3.org/TR/audio-output/
- 05:50:21 [rtoyg_m2]
- Concensus: Can be handled by ADC, but need more work on this since we might want to extend AudioContext instead or in addition to.
- 05:51:05 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/283
- 05:56:33 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/13
- 05:59:37 [padenot]
- break, 15min
- 05:59:40 [hoch]
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- 06:16:17 [hoch]
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- 06:35:11 [padenot]
- well apparently it was 30 in the schedule
- 06:35:14 [rtoyg_m2]
- WebMIDI topic
- 06:35:37 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: Very little update since last time; just a few small issues.
- 06:35:38 [hta]
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- 06:36:21 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: A few details need to be cleaned up.
- 06:36:45 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: Big issue is back pressure, but waiting for other vendors to contribute to this.
- 06:37:14 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: Many issues are Ready For Editing, so external people can contribute.
- 06:37:25 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Will resolving issues help?
- 06:38:14 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: Best thing is if another vendor decides to implement.
- 06:38:33 [hta1]
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- 06:39:06 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Is there another vendor?
- 06:39:30 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Pretty much ready to go, except for the backends.
- 06:40:24 [rtoyg_m2]
- cwilso: Main issue is security issues preventing other UAs implementing.
- 06:41:00 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Mostly a resource problem not security (if shipping without sysex).
- 06:50:08 [padenot]
- https://irc.paul.cx/uploads/96bea352472551f5/MVIMG_20190912_113339.jpg
- 06:56:58 [hoch]
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- 07:04:38 [rtoyg_m2]
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- 07:07:20 [rtoyg_m2]
- Topic: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A"Feature+Request%2FMissing+Feature"
- 07:07:40 [mdjp]
- V2 feature requests https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Feature+Request%2FMissing+Feature%22
- 07:08:12 [hoch]
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- 07:08:14 [mdjp]
- V2 feature requests https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Feature+Request%2FMissing+Feature%22
- 07:08:47 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2006
- 07:14:20 [hta]
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- 07:16:52 [hoch]
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- 07:23:51 [rtoyg_m2]
- Move to V2/under consideration
- 07:23:53 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1850
- 07:24:00 [hoch]
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- 07:26:42 [rtoyg_m2]
- rtoyg_m2: Do we want to pile more stuff on decodeAudioData
- 07:27:07 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Probably not; we're really moving to WebCodec.
- 07:28:52 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Close this issue in favor of Webcodec
- 07:29:10 [padenot]
- https://github.com/WICG/web-codecs
- 07:29:12 [rtoyg_m2]
- padenot: Yes, as long as WebCodec does the things we need.
- 07:29:54 [chris]
- https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webcodecs-proposal/3662 and https://github.com/WICG/web-codecs/blob/master/explainer.md
- 07:34:23 [hoch]
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- 07:35:20 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Closing issue, referencing web codecs.
- 07:35:22 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1764
- 07:35:51 [rtoyg_m2]
- hoch: Idea is send text to speech synthesizer, get the output and feed it into WebAudio graph.
- 07:36:16 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: So you have have add a reverb to the voice.
- 07:40:27 [rtoyg_m2]
- chris: Doesn't appear possible to join together with current speech api.
- 07:40:56 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Closing
- 07:42:45 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1757
- 07:42:52 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Close
- 07:44:49 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1756
- 07:45:59 [hta]
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- 07:46:13 [rtoyg_m2]
- mdjp: Close
- 07:46:33 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1540
- 07:49:10 [hoch]
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- 07:51:49 [chris]
- open-source pitch shifter in JS https://github.com/cristiano-belloni/KievII/blob/master/dsp/pitchshift.js
- 07:54:33 [rtoyg_m2]
- jer: Podcasts is a common use-case where people can listen to podcasts at faster speed (or slower)
- 07:55:47 [rtoyg_m2]
- Concensus: Move to V2/under consideration
- 07:56:59 [rtoyg_m2]
- https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/1480
- 08:02:00 [rtoyg_m2]
- Basically handled by active processing concept.
- 08:02:55 [hoch]
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