IRC log of immersive-web on 2019-09-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 23:46:15 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-immersive-web-irc
- 23:46:38 [dom]
- rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
- 23:46:40 [lgombos]
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- Meeting: Immersive Web Working Group face-to-face meeting
- 23:47:04 [dom]
- Chairs: ChrisWilson, AdaRoseCannon
- 23:47:29 [dom]
- Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
- 23:49:14 [trevorfsmith]
- present+
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- 23:51:25 [dom]
- Present+
- 00:04:45 [cwilso]
- present+
- 00:06:52 [kip]
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- 00:08:17 [atsushi]
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- 00:08:28 [klausw]
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- 00:10:32 [furoshiki]
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- 00:10:39 [dom]
- Present+
- 00:10:49 [ada]
- present+
- 00:11:10 [dom]
- Present+ Diane_Hosfelt_(remote)
- 00:11:44 [lgombos]
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- 00:14:31 [madlaina]
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- 00:14:38 [plamb_mozilla]
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- 00:14:57 [plamb_mozilla]
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- 00:15:20 [ada]
- https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
- 00:15:32 [mounir]
- Present+
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- 00:15:51 [klausw]
- Present+
- 00:15:56 [dino]
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- 00:16:02 [alexturn]
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- 00:16:02 [Manishearth]
- present+
- 00:16:04 [NellWaliczek]
- present+
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- 00:16:14 [alexturn]
- present+
- 00:16:15 [kzms2]
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- 00:16:19 [madlaina]
- present+
- 00:16:36 [cabanier]
- present+
- 00:16:45 [Zhiqiang__]
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- 00:16:51 [dino]
- present+
- 00:17:02 [avadacatavra]
- present+
- 00:17:17 [joemedley]
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- 00:17:18 [LocMDao]
- present+
- 00:17:20 [Jared]
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- 00:17:23 [bajones]
- present+
- 00:17:28 [kip]
- present+
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- 00:22:25 [cwilso]
- zakim, who is on the call?
- 00:22:25 [Zakim]
- Present: cwilso, joshmarinacci, ada, trevor, atsushi, cabanier, samdrazin, present, alexturn, trevorfsmith, bajones, LocMDao, mounir, Manishearth, dom, Diane_Hosfelt_(remote),
- 00:22:28 [Zakim]
- ... klausw, NellWaliczek, madlaina, dino, avadacatavra, kip
- 00:23:02 [lgombos]
- Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
- 00:24:25 [cabanier]
- scribenick: cabanier
- 00:25:26 [plamb_mozilla]
- present+
- 00:26:14 [NellWaliczek]
- https://www.irccloud.com/irc/w3.org/channel/immersive-web
- 00:26:19 [NellWaliczek]
- oops
- 00:26:22 [cabanier]
- ada: we posted the agenda but it might change
- 00:26:26 [NellWaliczek]
- https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
- 00:26:39 [NellWaliczek]
- NellWaliczek has changed the topic to: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
- 00:27:05 [cabanier]
- cwilso: me or ada will resolve issues with code of conduct or talk to dom if you want to talk to the w3c
- 00:28:48 [Artem_Bolgar]
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- 00:28:59 [cabanier]
- topic: ada: (going over the agenda)
- 00:29:30 [cabanier]
- ada: (going over the agenda)
- 00:30:35 [sushanth_msft]
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- 00:30:53 [klausw]
- q+ to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed?
- 00:30:54 [takayud]
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- 00:32:14 [Manishearth]
- https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles
- 00:32:34 [Manishearth]
- https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles/tree/master/packages/registry
- 00:34:16 [cwilso]
- ack klausw
- 00:34:16 [Zakim]
- klausw, you wanted to say do we want a TPAC channel on webvr slack? and to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed?
- 00:34:22 [cabanier]
- NellWaliczek: please take a look and we will go over it tomorrow
- 00:34:32 [LocMDao]
- q-
- 00:35:08 [cabanier]
- ada: on the schedule for wednesday, I marked some session that you might want to attend
- 00:35:24 [cabanier]
- ... there are a lot of sessions on immersive web
- 00:35:37 [cabanier]
- q+
- 00:36:04 [cabanier]
- q-
- 00:36:18 [dom]
- q?
- 00:36:19 [cwilso]
- q?
- 00:36:26 [cabanier]
- topic: Overview of recent changes/current status
- 00:37:13 [cabanier]
- bajones: this should be a short topic and I will list the changes since the oregon face-to-face
- 00:37:35 [cabanier]
- ... the biggest thing is that we're trying to scale back our deliverable
- 00:37:47 [cabanier]
- ... we're about to cut the working draft by the end of the week
- 00:38:12 [cabanier]
- ... we are VR complete so it should be useful as a replacement for WebVR
- 00:38:30 [cabanier]
- ... there were no large issues raised
- 00:38:39 [cabanier]
- ... we had a few commits
- 00:38:55 [cabanier]
- ... removing redundant attributes
- 00:39:19 [cabanier]
- ... we removed xr layer type so we only support webgl
- 00:39:31 [crtz]
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- 00:39:39 [cabanier]
- ... we removed xr presentation context which made it easier to understand
- 00:39:54 [cabanier]
- ... we removed blur events and replaced it with a change event
- 00:40:02 [cabanier]
- ... we fixed issues with typed arrays
- 00:40:22 [cabanier]
- ... we add a bunch of security and privacy text. mitigations, etc
- 00:40:31 [cabanier]
- ... we developed a system for input profiles
- 00:41:02 [cabanier]
- .... (going over what input profiles do)
- 00:41:11 [joemedley]
- q+
- 00:41:21 [cabanier]
- ... we got stricter on gamepad mappings
- 00:41:34 [cabanier]
- ... we added optional and required features during session creation
- 00:41:47 [cabanier]
- ... and then a whole slew of little changes
- 00:42:01 [ada]
- q?
- 00:42:17 [cabanier]
- ... so, there were a lot of commits but not really a change in how the API was intended to be used
- 00:42:32 [cabanier]
- ... the big thing we did our module split
- 00:42:33 [joemedley]
- q-
- 00:42:54 [cabanier]
- ... we have the core webxr spec which has everything for a VR application
- 00:43:08 [cabanier]
- ... and we moved AR and gamepad out into different modules
- 00:43:22 [cabanier]
- ... the modules let us iterate on that piece of the spec
- 00:43:31 [cabanier]
- ... it serves as a way to speed up development
- 00:43:56 [klausw]
- q+ to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use
- 00:44:05 [cabanier]
- ... and now Manishearth is helping out as an editor on the AR spec
- 00:44:48 [cabanier]
- ... a large part has been laying the framework for how the modules will interact
- 00:45:03 [cabanier]
- ... the gamepad module should ship as WebXR core
- 00:45:08 [LocMDao]
- q+
- 00:45:13 [cabanier]
- ... WebAR module should follow shortly after
- 00:45:34 [cabanier]
- ... outside the spec, there was a lot of progress on the webxr polyfill
- 00:45:45 [cabanier]
- ... there's still work on updating the test
- 00:46:01 [cabanier]
- ... the samples page will run with the polyfill
- 00:46:18 [cabanier]
- ... for instance, the oculus quest that only does webvr runs the webxr samples
- 00:47:01 [cabanier]
- ... the input profiles library has multiple packages and will hopefully help authors determining the input that got out of the gamepad API
- 00:47:18 [cabanier]
- ... showing the controller that user had was an unsolved problem
- 00:47:32 [cabanier]
- ... and we get a new LOGO! and STICKERS!
- 00:47:55 [cabanier]
- ... there's also an animated version
- 00:48:38 [Jared]
- https://toji.github.io/webxr-logo/
- 00:48:53 [ada]
- q?
- 00:48:54 [cwilso]
- q?
- 00:49:18 [cwilso]
- ack klausw
- 00:49:19 [cabanier]
- ... that's all. Hopefully we can flesh out the reminder overthe next couple of day
- 00:49:19 [Zakim]
- klausw, you wanted to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use
- 00:49:29 [plamb_m__]
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- 00:49:44 [cabanier]
- klausw: a lot of content might not enforce the restriction
- 00:50:10 [ada]
- ack klausw
- 00:50:12 [cabanier]
- ... if you want to use local-floor, you have to ask it during requestsession
- 00:50:30 [cabanier]
- ... this is new behavior and new implementations should be aware of it
- 00:50:44 [cabanier]
- NellWaliczek: we should update the test to enforce compliants
- 00:51:00 [ada]
- q+
- 00:51:07 [cabanier]
- bajones: the polyfill currently doesn't do any validation. That is one thing that's on the issue list
- 00:51:26 [cabanier]
- ... that is indeed a breaking change
- 00:51:37 [cabanier]
- ... but we all knew it was coming :-)
- 00:51:41 [ada]
- ack LocMDao
- 00:52:05 [klausw]
- s/a lot of content/webxr implementations or polyfills/
- 00:52:21 [cabanier]
- LocMDao: what is the status of audio? Should that become its own module?
- 00:52:28 [cabanier]
- cwilso: we certainly could
- 00:52:52 [cabanier]
- ... the web audio API will likely need some extra pieces
- 00:53:07 [cabanier]
- ... today the frameworks solve the issue for you and nothing's needed from us
- 00:53:29 [cabanier]
- ... I think we'll have extra modules ie 360 video mapping
- 00:54:00 [cabanier]
- bajones: in general every time we interface with another API, we will probably want to do it as another module
- 00:54:00 [avadacatavra]
- q+
- 00:54:14 [cabanier]
- ... so people that are experts can work on that particular problem
- 00:54:43 [cabanier]
- ... we don't want to revise the core spec when another API updates
- 00:55:21 [ada]
- ack
- 00:55:50 [cwilso]
- q?
- 00:55:52 [cabanier]
- ada: working on polyfill and tests, issues and PRs are welcome
- 00:55:52 [cwilso]
- ack ada
- 00:56:10 [cabanier]
- ... and we want to get people interested and get more feedback
- 00:57:08 [cabanier]
- bajones: if there's something in the repo, we won't berate you for putting up a PR
- 00:57:27 [joemedley]
- Where's the lightning talk sign-up?
- 00:57:28 [cabanier]
- ... we might say to hold off but we will never get upset if someone tries to contribute
- 00:57:33 [ada]
- q?
- 00:58:07 [cwilso]
- ack avada
- 00:58:17 [ada]
- ack avadacatavra
- 00:58:20 [cabanier]
- avadacatavra: talking about integrating with other API
- 00:58:28 [cabanier]
- ... made me think of permissions
- 00:58:37 [cabanier]
- ... do we integrate with that specification?
- 00:59:01 [cabanier]
- bajones: that is a good open question
- 00:59:24 [cabanier]
- ... NellWaliczek has done some exploration in the past
- 00:59:41 [cabanier]
- ... to give us a feel what could be done in this space
- 00:59:57 [kip]
- q+ To say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak information about the environment to content.
- 01:00:04 [cabanier]
- ... so maybe this should go in the core spec
- 01:00:05 [cabanier]
- q+
- 01:00:16 [ada]
- ack kip
- 01:00:16 [Zakim]
- kip, you wanted to say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak
- 01:00:20 [Zakim]
- ... information about the environment to content.
- 01:00:37 [cabanier]
- kip: previously the thought spec was that audio didn't need deeper integration
- 01:00:41 [cwilso]
- q+
- 01:01:03 [cabanier]
- ... one reason might be that webxr could provide information to webaudio
- 01:01:33 [cabanier]
- ... so you can do reverbertion and occlusion without giving the author access to that private information
- 01:01:34 [dino]
- q+
- 01:01:52 [ada]
- zakim, close the queue
- 01:01:52 [Zakim]
- ok, ada, the speaker queue is closed
- 01:01:57 [ada]
- ack cwilso
- 01:02:31 [cabanier]
- cwilso: there is some function that we could provide to give the headpose to webaudio directly
- 01:02:40 [cabanier]
- ... we could hook it up in a different way
- 01:03:26 [dino]
- q-
- 01:03:28 [ada]
- ack cabanier
- 01:03:29 [cabanier]
- dino: you need to have permission because you will have always have permission
- 01:03:33 [cwilso]
- scribenick: cwilso
- 01:03:40 [dino]
- (was going to say the same thing as cwilso)
- 01:04:07 [cwilso]
- rik: for the permissions API, we hooked up in the browser
- 01:04:34 [cwilso]
- ... although that's divergent from current spec.
- 01:04:47 [cwilso]
- nell: please file an issue, since this would be noncomformant.
- 01:05:01 [cwilso]
- scribenick: cabinier
- 01:05:10 [cwilso]
- scribenick: cabanier
- 01:05:19 [ada]
- zakim, open the queue
- 01:05:19 [Zakim]
- ok, ada, the speaker queue is open
- 01:05:19 [cabanier]
- scribenick: cabanier
- 01:05:23 [bajones]
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RZTL69JsTxoJUyXNnu_2v0PPILqrDpYW3ZxDjMAqQ-M/edit#heading=h.qlpukl2oy1tq
- 01:05:31 [cabanier]
- topic: Feature Policy Discussion
- 01:05:46 [Manishearth]
- https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22feature+policy%22
- 01:06:47 [cabanier]
- bajones: we have a feature that allows embedding in other pages, etc
- 01:07:10 [cabanier]
- ... you can say features can't be used in iframes, popups, etc
- 01:07:50 [cabanier]
- ... because we are a powerful, we want to integrate with the feature policy
- 01:08:56 [cabanier]
- ... up to this point, we stated that if the policy was blocked, the XR object would be gone from the navigator object
- 01:09:21 [cabanier]
- ... there is precedent in other spec, but we got feedback that this wasn't a recommended pattern
- 01:10:01 [fms_cat]
- fms_cat has joined #immersive-web
- 01:10:03 [cabanier]
- ... what was recommended that we always expose it, but it is not available, it would reject everything
- 01:10:12 [joemedley]
- q+
- 01:10:14 [cabanier]
- ... requestSession would always reject
- 01:10:48 [cabanier]
- ... we want to have a pattern going forward to feature policy is handled in a consistent way
- 01:10:53 [ada]
- joemedley: is this a pressing question?
- 01:11:16 [joemedley]
- q-
- 01:11:57 [cabanier]
- mounir: who implements this today?
- 01:12:19 [cabanier]
- bajones: google didn't do this. Did anyone do this?
- 01:12:35 [cabanier]
- ... it isn't widely implemented
- 01:12:39 [kip]
- q+ To say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal
- 01:12:45 [ada]
- q?
- 01:12:48 [cwilso]
- ack kip
- 01:12:48 [Zakim]
- kip, you wanted to say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal
- 01:13:29 [ada]
- q+
- 01:13:35 [cwilso]
- ack ada
- 01:13:36 [cabanier]
- kip: I'm support of nit hiding the xr object and failing the individual requests
- 01:13:40 [joemedley]
- https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Feature-Policy#Browser_compatibility
- 01:13:45 [ada]
- ack ada
- 01:14:41 [cabanier]
- alexturn: I don't know
- 01:14:47 [cabanier]
- dino: I don't know either
- 01:15:01 [cabanier]
- (wrt how XR is handled)
- 01:15:12 [joemedley]
- If you need help getting this table updated, see me on break.
- 01:15:25 [cabanier]
- bajones: should we do a straw poll?
- 01:16:08 [cabanier]
- q+
- 01:16:19 [cabanier]
- bajones: hopefull we will resolve this quite soon
- 01:16:25 [ada]
- ack cabanier
- 01:16:29 [cwilso]
- Q+
- 01:16:40 [cwilso]
- scribenick:cwilso
- 01:16:44 [cwilso]
- rik: inline sessions?
- 01:16:54 [cabanier]
- scribenick: cabanier
- 01:16:57 [cwilso]
- bajones: intent is feature policy would block inline sessions as well
- 01:16:57 [cabanier]
- bajones: yes
- 01:17:21 [cabanier]
- ... the polyfill can do a good job to fill in the gap
- 01:17:40 [cabanier]
- NellWaliczek: we have inline session with spatial tracking
- 01:18:06 [cwilso]
- q?
- 01:18:07 [cabanier]
- bajones: it is possible to break out for sensor access for individual API
- 01:18:18 [dom]
- q+
- 01:18:25 [ada]
- ack cwilso
- 01:18:27 [avadacatavra]
- q+
- 01:18:35 [dom]
- q-
- 01:18:43 [cabanier]
- cwilso: I would suggest that people should comment on the pull request
- 01:18:59 [ada]
- ack avadacatavra
- 01:19:18 [cabanier]
- avadacatavra: are we saying that the proposal will break out different sensors
- 01:19:34 [cabanier]
- NellWaliczek: requestSession and sessionSupported
- 01:19:40 [cabanier]
- ... are the entry points
- 01:19:48 [cabanier]
- ada: let's do a poll
- 01:20:03 [ada]
- sorry 'bout that
- 01:20:06 [cabanier]
- bajones: no, we'll wait for comments on the PR
- 01:20:32 [cabanier]
- ... there's some more to go through.
- 01:21:36 [cabanier]
- ... we do want the polyfill to step in and fill the gaps
- 01:21:53 [cabanier]
- ... and the fallback is that you have no sensor data
- 01:22:01 [cabanier]
- ... for mouse style interactions
- 01:23:11 [ada]
- q?
- 01:23:28 [cabanier]
- ... the polyfill will fill the gap between feature policy and what developers want to do
- 01:24:00 [cabanier]
- ... when should new features policies be added?
- 01:24:16 [cabanier]
- ... the ar module shouldn't require its own feature policy
- 01:24:35 [cabanier]
- ... the data that is exposes to the page is not any different
- 01:24:53 [cabanier]
- ... in general we want to keep things simple for developers
- 01:25:02 [mounir]
- q+
- 01:25:14 [cabanier]
- ... we don't want the developers to have to turn on a bunch of policies
- 01:25:32 [ada]
- ack mounir
- 01:25:41 [avadacatavra]
- q+
- 01:26:22 [cabanier]
- mounir: we're switching to xr for the policy, should we break it into VR or AR?
- 01:26:48 [cabanier]
- bajones: we are proposing that this is too granular
- 01:26:56 [cabanier]
- ... it's not an invalid point
- 01:27:24 [cabanier]
- ... there's a difference between requesting AR and turning on the camera
- 01:27:24 [joemedley]
- q+
- 01:27:50 [cabanier]
- ... we don't want people to turn off because of the fear of camera data
- 01:28:00 [dino]
- q+
- 01:28:03 [cabanier]
- NellWaliczek: there were issues files on this topic
- 01:28:14 [cabanier]
- ... there is no distinction between VR and AR
- 01:28:16 [cwilso]
- s/files/filed
- 01:28:42 [cabanier]
- ... the way we treat AR is just a hint to say that the real world is visible
- 01:29:01 [cabanier]
- ... the more effective approach is to do this in modules that require this