IRC log of immersive-web on 2019-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:46:15 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-immersive-web-irc
23:46:38 [dom]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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23:46:57 [dom]
Meeting: Immersive Web Working Group face-to-face meeting
23:47:04 [dom]
Chairs: ChrisWilson, AdaRoseCannon
23:47:29 [dom]
Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
23:49:14 [trevorfsmith]
present+
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23:51:25 [dom]
Present+
00:04:45 [cwilso]
present+
00:06:52 [kip]
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00:10:39 [dom]
Present+
00:10:49 [ada]
present+
00:11:10 [dom]
Present+ Diane_Hosfelt_(remote)
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00:15:20 [ada]
https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
00:15:32 [mounir]
Present+
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00:15:51 [klausw]
Present+
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00:16:02 [Manishearth]
present+
00:16:04 [NellWaliczek]
present+
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00:16:14 [alexturn]
present+
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00:16:19 [madlaina]
present+
00:16:36 [cabanier]
present+
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00:16:51 [dino]
present+
00:17:02 [avadacatavra]
present+
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00:17:18 [LocMDao]
present+
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00:17:23 [bajones]
present+
00:17:28 [kip]
present+
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00:22:25 [cwilso]
zakim, who is on the call?
00:22:25 [Zakim]
Present: cwilso, joshmarinacci, ada, trevor, atsushi, cabanier, samdrazin, present, alexturn, trevorfsmith, bajones, LocMDao, mounir, Manishearth, dom, Diane_Hosfelt_(remote),
00:22:28 [Zakim]
... klausw, NellWaliczek, madlaina, dino, avadacatavra, kip
00:23:02 [lgombos]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
00:24:25 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
00:25:26 [plamb_mozilla]
present+
00:26:14 [NellWaliczek]
https://www.irccloud.com/irc/w3.org/channel/immersive-web
00:26:19 [NellWaliczek]
oops
00:26:22 [cabanier]
ada: we posted the agenda but it might change
00:26:26 [NellWaliczek]
https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
00:26:39 [NellWaliczek]
NellWaliczek has changed the topic to: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019
00:27:05 [cabanier]
cwilso: me or ada will resolve issues with code of conduct or talk to dom if you want to talk to the w3c
00:28:48 [Artem_Bolgar]
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00:28:59 [cabanier]
topic: ada: (going over the agenda)
00:29:30 [cabanier]
ada: (going over the agenda)
00:30:35 [sushanth_msft]
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00:30:53 [klausw]
q+ to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed?
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00:32:14 [Manishearth]
https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles
00:32:34 [Manishearth]
https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles/tree/master/packages/registry
00:34:16 [cwilso]
ack klausw
00:34:16 [Zakim]
klausw, you wanted to say do we want a TPAC channel on webvr slack? and to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed?
00:34:22 [cabanier]
NellWaliczek: please take a look and we will go over it tomorrow
00:34:32 [LocMDao]
q-
00:35:08 [cabanier]
ada: on the schedule for wednesday, I marked some session that you might want to attend
00:35:24 [cabanier]
... there are a lot of sessions on immersive web
00:35:37 [cabanier]
q+
00:36:04 [cabanier]
q-
00:36:18 [dom]
q?
00:36:19 [cwilso]
q?
00:36:26 [cabanier]
topic: Overview of recent changes/current status
00:37:13 [cabanier]
bajones: this should be a short topic and I will list the changes since the oregon face-to-face
00:37:35 [cabanier]
... the biggest thing is that we're trying to scale back our deliverable
00:37:47 [cabanier]
... we're about to cut the working draft by the end of the week
00:38:12 [cabanier]
... we are VR complete so it should be useful as a replacement for WebVR
00:38:30 [cabanier]
... there were no large issues raised
00:38:39 [cabanier]
... we had a few commits
00:38:55 [cabanier]
... removing redundant attributes
00:39:19 [cabanier]
... we removed xr layer type so we only support webgl
00:39:31 [crtz]
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00:39:39 [cabanier]
... we removed xr presentation context which made it easier to understand
00:39:54 [cabanier]
... we removed blur events and replaced it with a change event
00:40:02 [cabanier]
... we fixed issues with typed arrays
00:40:22 [cabanier]
... we add a bunch of security and privacy text. mitigations, etc
00:40:31 [cabanier]
... we developed a system for input profiles
00:41:02 [cabanier]
.... (going over what input profiles do)
00:41:11 [joemedley]
q+
00:41:21 [cabanier]
... we got stricter on gamepad mappings
00:41:34 [cabanier]
... we added optional and required features during session creation
00:41:47 [cabanier]
... and then a whole slew of little changes
00:42:01 [ada]
q?
00:42:17 [cabanier]
... so, there were a lot of commits but not really a change in how the API was intended to be used
00:42:32 [cabanier]
... the big thing we did our module split
00:42:33 [joemedley]
q-
00:42:54 [cabanier]
... we have the core webxr spec which has everything for a VR application
00:43:08 [cabanier]
... and we moved AR and gamepad out into different modules
00:43:22 [cabanier]
... the modules let us iterate on that piece of the spec
00:43:31 [cabanier]
... it serves as a way to speed up development
00:43:56 [klausw]
q+ to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use
00:44:05 [cabanier]
... and now Manishearth is helping out as an editor on the AR spec
00:44:48 [cabanier]
... a large part has been laying the framework for how the modules will interact
00:45:03 [cabanier]
... the gamepad module should ship as WebXR core
00:45:08 [LocMDao]
q+
00:45:13 [cabanier]
... WebAR module should follow shortly after
00:45:34 [cabanier]
... outside the spec, there was a lot of progress on the webxr polyfill
00:45:45 [cabanier]
... there's still work on updating the test
00:46:01 [cabanier]
... the samples page will run with the polyfill
00:46:18 [cabanier]
... for instance, the oculus quest that only does webvr runs the webxr samples
00:47:01 [cabanier]
... the input profiles library has multiple packages and will hopefully help authors determining the input that got out of the gamepad API
00:47:18 [cabanier]
... showing the controller that user had was an unsolved problem
00:47:32 [cabanier]
... and we get a new LOGO! and STICKERS!
00:47:55 [cabanier]
... there's also an animated version
00:48:38 [Jared]
https://toji.github.io/webxr-logo/
00:48:53 [ada]
q?
00:48:54 [cwilso]
q?
00:49:18 [cwilso]
ack klausw
00:49:19 [cabanier]
... that's all. Hopefully we can flesh out the reminder overthe next couple of day
00:49:19 [Zakim]
klausw, you wanted to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use
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00:49:44 [cabanier]
klausw: a lot of content might not enforce the restriction
00:50:10 [ada]
ack klausw
00:50:12 [cabanier]
... if you want to use local-floor, you have to ask it during requestsession
00:50:30 [cabanier]
... this is new behavior and new implementations should be aware of it
00:50:44 [cabanier]
NellWaliczek: we should update the test to enforce compliants
00:51:00 [ada]
q+
00:51:07 [cabanier]
bajones: the polyfill currently doesn't do any validation. That is one thing that's on the issue list
00:51:26 [cabanier]
... that is indeed a breaking change
00:51:37 [cabanier]
... but we all knew it was coming :-)
00:51:41 [ada]
ack LocMDao
00:52:05 [klausw]
s/a lot of content/webxr implementations or polyfills/
00:52:21 [cabanier]
LocMDao: what is the status of audio? Should that become its own module?
00:52:28 [cabanier]
cwilso: we certainly could
00:52:52 [cabanier]
... the web audio API will likely need some extra pieces
00:53:07 [cabanier]
... today the frameworks solve the issue for you and nothing's needed from us
00:53:29 [cabanier]
... I think we'll have extra modules ie 360 video mapping
00:54:00 [cabanier]
bajones: in general every time we interface with another API, we will probably want to do it as another module
00:54:00 [avadacatavra]
q+
00:54:14 [cabanier]
... so people that are experts can work on that particular problem
00:54:43 [cabanier]
... we don't want to revise the core spec when another API updates
00:55:21 [ada]
ack
00:55:50 [cwilso]
q?
00:55:52 [cabanier]
ada: working on polyfill and tests, issues and PRs are welcome
00:55:52 [cwilso]
ack ada
00:56:10 [cabanier]
... and we want to get people interested and get more feedback
00:57:08 [cabanier]
bajones: if there's something in the repo, we won't berate you for putting up a PR
00:57:27 [joemedley]
Where's the lightning talk sign-up?
00:57:28 [cabanier]
... we might say to hold off but we will never get upset if someone tries to contribute
00:57:33 [ada]
q?
00:58:07 [cwilso]
ack avada
00:58:17 [ada]
ack avadacatavra
00:58:20 [cabanier]
avadacatavra: talking about integrating with other API
00:58:28 [cabanier]
... made me think of permissions
00:58:37 [cabanier]
... do we integrate with that specification?
00:59:01 [cabanier]
bajones: that is a good open question
00:59:24 [cabanier]
... NellWaliczek has done some exploration in the past
00:59:41 [cabanier]
... to give us a feel what could be done in this space
00:59:57 [kip]
q+ To say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak information about the environment to content.
01:00:04 [cabanier]
... so maybe this should go in the core spec
01:00:05 [cabanier]
q+
01:00:16 [ada]
ack kip
01:00:16 [Zakim]
kip, you wanted to say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak
01:00:20 [Zakim]
... information about the environment to content.
01:00:37 [cabanier]
kip: previously the thought spec was that audio didn't need deeper integration
01:00:41 [cwilso]
q+
01:01:03 [cabanier]
... one reason might be that webxr could provide information to webaudio
01:01:33 [cabanier]
... so you can do reverbertion and occlusion without giving the author access to that private information
01:01:34 [dino]
q+
01:01:52 [ada]
zakim, close the queue
01:01:52 [Zakim]
ok, ada, the speaker queue is closed
01:01:57 [ada]
ack cwilso
01:02:31 [cabanier]
cwilso: there is some function that we could provide to give the headpose to webaudio directly
01:02:40 [cabanier]
... we could hook it up in a different way
01:03:26 [dino]
q-
01:03:28 [ada]
ack cabanier
01:03:29 [cabanier]
dino: you need to have permission because you will have always have permission
01:03:33 [cwilso]
scribenick: cwilso
01:03:40 [dino]
(was going to say the same thing as cwilso)
01:04:07 [cwilso]
rik: for the permissions API, we hooked up in the browser
01:04:34 [cwilso]
... although that's divergent from current spec.
01:04:47 [cwilso]
nell: please file an issue, since this would be noncomformant.
01:05:01 [cwilso]
scribenick: cabinier
01:05:10 [cwilso]
scribenick: cabanier
01:05:19 [ada]
zakim, open the queue
01:05:19 [Zakim]
ok, ada, the speaker queue is open
01:05:19 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
01:05:23 [bajones]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RZTL69JsTxoJUyXNnu_2v0PPILqrDpYW3ZxDjMAqQ-M/edit#heading=h.qlpukl2oy1tq
01:05:31 [cabanier]
topic: Feature Policy Discussion
01:05:46 [Manishearth]
https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22feature+policy%22
01:06:47 [cabanier]
bajones: we have a feature that allows embedding in other pages, etc
01:07:10 [cabanier]
... you can say features can't be used in iframes, popups, etc
01:07:50 [cabanier]
... because we are a powerful, we want to integrate with the feature policy
01:08:56 [cabanier]
... up to this point, we stated that if the policy was blocked, the XR object would be gone from the navigator object
01:09:21 [cabanier]
... there is precedent in other spec, but we got feedback that this wasn't a recommended pattern
01:10:01 [fms_cat]
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01:10:03 [cabanier]
... what was recommended that we always expose it, but it is not available, it would reject everything
01:10:12 [joemedley]
q+
01:10:14 [cabanier]
... requestSession would always reject
01:10:48 [cabanier]
... we want to have a pattern going forward to feature policy is handled in a consistent way
01:10:53 [ada]
joemedley: is this a pressing question?
01:11:16 [joemedley]
q-
01:11:57 [cabanier]
mounir: who implements this today?
01:12:19 [cabanier]
bajones: google didn't do this. Did anyone do this?
01:12:35 [cabanier]
... it isn't widely implemented
01:12:39 [kip]
q+ To say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal
01:12:45 [ada]
q?
01:12:48 [cwilso]
ack kip
01:12:48 [Zakim]
kip, you wanted to say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal
01:13:29 [ada]
q+
01:13:35 [cwilso]
ack ada
01:13:36 [cabanier]
kip: I'm support of nit hiding the xr object and failing the individual requests
01:13:40 [joemedley]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Feature-Policy#Browser_compatibility
01:13:45 [ada]
ack ada
01:14:41 [cabanier]
alexturn: I don't know
01:14:47 [cabanier]
dino: I don't know either
01:15:01 [cabanier]
(wrt how XR is handled)
01:15:12 [joemedley]
If you need help getting this table updated, see me on break.
01:15:25 [cabanier]
bajones: should we do a straw poll?
01:16:08 [cabanier]
q+
01:16:19 [cabanier]
bajones: hopefull we will resolve this quite soon
01:16:25 [ada]
ack cabanier
01:16:29 [cwilso]
Q+
01:16:40 [cwilso]
scribenick:cwilso
01:16:44 [cwilso]
rik: inline sessions?
01:16:54 [cabanier]
scribenick: cabanier
01:16:57 [cwilso]
bajones: intent is feature policy would block inline sessions as well
01:16:57 [cabanier]
bajones: yes
01:17:21 [cabanier]
... the polyfill can do a good job to fill in the gap
01:17:40 [cabanier]
NellWaliczek: we have inline session with spatial tracking
01:18:06 [cwilso]
q?
01:18:07 [cabanier]
bajones: it is possible to break out for sensor access for individual API
01:18:18 [dom]
q+
01:18:25 [ada]
ack cwilso
01:18:27 [avadacatavra]
q+
01:18:35 [dom]
q-
01:18:43 [cabanier]
cwilso: I would suggest that people should comment on the pull request
01:18:59 [ada]
ack avadacatavra
01:19:18 [cabanier]
avadacatavra: are we saying that the proposal will break out different sensors
01:19:34 [cabanier]
NellWaliczek: requestSession and sessionSupported
01:19:40 [cabanier]
... are the entry points
01:19:48 [cabanier]
ada: let's do a poll
01:20:03 [ada]
sorry 'bout that
01:20:06 [cabanier]
bajones: no, we'll wait for comments on the PR
01:20:32 [cabanier]
... there's some more to go through.
01:21:36 [cabanier]
... we do want the polyfill to step in and fill the gaps
01:21:53 [cabanier]
... and the fallback is that you have no sensor data
01:22:01 [cabanier]
... for mouse style interactions
01:23:11 [ada]
q?
01:23:28 [cabanier]
... the polyfill will fill the gap between feature policy and what developers want to do
01:24:00 [cabanier]
... when should new features policies be added?
01:24:16 [cabanier]
... the ar module shouldn't require its own feature policy
01:24:35 [cabanier]
... the data that is exposes to the page is not any different
01:24:53 [cabanier]
... in general we want to keep things simple for developers
01:25:02 [mounir]
q+
01:25:14 [cabanier]
... we don't want the developers to have to turn on a bunch of policies
01:25:32 [ada]
ack mounir
01:25:41 [avadacatavra]
q+
01:26:22 [cabanier]
mounir: we're switching to xr for the policy, should we break it into VR or AR?
01:26:48 [cabanier]
bajones: we are proposing that this is too granular
01:26:56 [cabanier]
... it's not an invalid point
01:27:24 [cabanier]
... there's a difference between requesting AR and turning on the camera
01:27:24 [joemedley]
q+
01:27:50 [cabanier]
... we don't want people to turn off because of the fear of camera data
01:28:00 [dino]
q+
01:28:03 [cabanier]
NellWaliczek: there were issues files on this topic
01:28:14 [cabanier]
... there is no distinction between VR and AR
01:28:16 [cwilso]
s/files/filed
01:28:42 [cabanier]
... the way we treat AR is just a hint to say that the real world is visible
01:29:01 [cabanier]
... the more effective approach is to do this in modules that require this