23:46:15 RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web 23:46:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/15-immersive-web-irc 23:46:38 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 23:46:40 lgombos has joined #immersive-web 23:46:57 Meeting: Immersive Web Working Group face-to-face meeting 23:47:04 Chairs: ChrisWilson, AdaRoseCannon 23:47:29 Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019 23:49:14 present+ 23:50:34 nakakura has joined #immersive-web 23:51:25 Present+ 00:04:45 present+ 00:06:52 kip has joined #immersive-web 00:08:17 atsushi has joined #immersive-web 00:08:28 klausw has joined #immersive-web 00:10:32 furoshiki has joined #immersive-web 00:10:39 Present+ 00:10:49 present+ 00:11:10 Present+ Diane_Hosfelt_(remote) 00:11:44 lgombos has joined #immersive-web 00:14:31 madlaina has joined #immersive-web 00:14:38 plamb_mozilla has joined #immersive-web 00:14:53 plamb_mozilla has left #immersive-web 00:14:57 plamb_mozilla has joined #immersive-web 00:15:20 https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019 00:15:32 Present+ 00:15:44 bajones has joined #Immersive-Web 00:15:51 Present+ 00:15:56 dino has joined #immersive-web 00:16:02 alexturn has joined #immersive-web 00:16:02 present+ 00:16:04 present+ 00:16:09 Cortiz has joined #immersive-web 00:16:14 present+ 00:16:15 kzms2 has joined #immersive-web 00:16:19 present+ 00:16:36 present+ 00:16:45 Zhiqiang__ has joined #immersive-web 00:16:51 present+ 00:17:02 present+ 00:17:17 joemedley has joined #immersive-web 00:17:18 present+ 00:17:20 Jared has joined #immersive-web 00:17:23 present+ 00:17:28 present+ 00:19:49 fms_cat has joined #immersive-web 00:22:25 zakim, who is on the call? 00:22:25 Present: cwilso, joshmarinacci, ada, trevor, atsushi, cabanier, samdrazin, present, alexturn, trevorfsmith, bajones, LocMDao, mounir, Manishearth, dom, Diane_Hosfelt_(remote), 00:22:28 ... klausw, NellWaliczek, madlaina, dino, avadacatavra, kip 00:23:02 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 00:24:25 scribenick: cabanier 00:25:26 present+ 00:26:14 https://www.irccloud.com/irc/w3.org/channel/immersive-web 00:26:19 oops 00:26:22 ada: we posted the agenda but it might change 00:26:26 https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019 00:26:39 NellWaliczek has changed the topic to: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/master/TPAC-2019 00:27:05 cwilso: me or ada will resolve issues with code of conduct or talk to dom if you want to talk to the w3c 00:28:48 Artem_Bolgar has joined #immersive-web 00:28:59 topic: ada: (going over the agenda) 00:29:30 ada: (going over the agenda) 00:30:35 sushanth_msft has joined #immersive-web 00:30:53 q+ to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed? 00:30:54 takayud has joined #immersive-web 00:32:14 https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles 00:32:34 https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-input-profiles/tree/master/packages/registry 00:34:16 ack klausw 00:34:16 klausw, you wanted to say do we want a TPAC channel on webvr slack? and to say who's the audience for demos today vs demos on Wed? 00:34:22 NellWaliczek: please take a look and we will go over it tomorrow 00:34:32 q- 00:35:08 ada: on the schedule for wednesday, I marked some session that you might want to attend 00:35:24 ... there are a lot of sessions on immersive web 00:35:37 q+ 00:36:04 q- 00:36:18 q? 00:36:19 q? 00:36:26 topic: Overview of recent changes/current status 00:37:13 bajones: this should be a short topic and I will list the changes since the oregon face-to-face 00:37:35 ... the biggest thing is that we're trying to scale back our deliverable 00:37:47 ... we're about to cut the working draft by the end of the week 00:38:12 ... we are VR complete so it should be useful as a replacement for WebVR 00:38:30 ... there were no large issues raised 00:38:39 ... we had a few commits 00:38:55 ... removing redundant attributes 00:39:19 ... we removed xr layer type so we only support webgl 00:39:31 crtz has joined #immersive-web 00:39:39 ... we removed xr presentation context which made it easier to understand 00:39:54 ... we removed blur events and replaced it with a change event 00:40:02 ... we fixed issues with typed arrays 00:40:22 ... we add a bunch of security and privacy text. mitigations, etc 00:40:31 ... we developed a system for input profiles 00:41:02 .... (going over what input profiles do) 00:41:11 q+ 00:41:21 ... we got stricter on gamepad mappings 00:41:34 ... we added optional and required features during session creation 00:41:47 ... and then a whole slew of little changes 00:42:01 q? 00:42:17 ... so, there were a lot of commits but not really a change in how the API was intended to be used 00:42:32 ... the big thing we did our module split 00:42:33 q- 00:42:54 ... we have the core webxr spec which has everything for a VR application 00:43:08 ... and we moved AR and gamepad out into different modules 00:43:22 ... the modules let us iterate on that piece of the spec 00:43:31 ... it serves as a way to speed up development 00:43:56 q+ to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use 00:44:05 ... and now Manishearth is helping out as an editor on the AR spec 00:44:48 ... a large part has been laying the framework for how the modules will interact 00:45:03 ... the gamepad module should ship as WebXR core 00:45:08 q+ 00:45:13 ... WebAR module should follow shortly after 00:45:34 ... outside the spec, there was a lot of progress on the webxr polyfill 00:45:45 ... there's still work on updating the test 00:46:01 ... the samples page will run with the polyfill 00:46:18 ... for instance, the oculus quest that only does webvr runs the webxr samples 00:47:01 ... the input profiles library has multiple packages and will hopefully help authors determining the input that got out of the gamepad API 00:47:18 ... showing the controller that user had was an unsolved problem 00:47:32 ... and we get a new LOGO! and STICKERS! 00:47:55 ... there's also an animated version 00:48:38 https://toji.github.io/webxr-logo/ 00:48:53 q? 00:48:54 q? 00:49:18 ack klausw 00:49:19 ... that's all. Hopefully we can flesh out the reminder overthe next couple of day 00:49:19 klausw, you wanted to say implementations and polyfills should enforce feature restrictions to avoid compat issues, i.e. local-floor use 00:49:29 plamb_m__ has joined #immersive-web 00:49:44 klausw: a lot of content might not enforce the restriction 00:50:10 ack klausw 00:50:12 ... if you want to use local-floor, you have to ask it during requestsession 00:50:30 ... this is new behavior and new implementations should be aware of it 00:50:44 NellWaliczek: we should update the test to enforce compliants 00:51:00 q+ 00:51:07 bajones: the polyfill currently doesn't do any validation. That is one thing that's on the issue list 00:51:26 ... that is indeed a breaking change 00:51:37 ... but we all knew it was coming :-) 00:51:41 ack LocMDao 00:52:05 s/a lot of content/webxr implementations or polyfills/ 00:52:21 LocMDao: what is the status of audio? Should that become its own module? 00:52:28 cwilso: we certainly could 00:52:52 ... the web audio API will likely need some extra pieces 00:53:07 ... today the frameworks solve the issue for you and nothing's needed from us 00:53:29 ... I think we'll have extra modules ie 360 video mapping 00:54:00 bajones: in general every time we interface with another API, we will probably want to do it as another module 00:54:00 q+ 00:54:14 ... so people that are experts can work on that particular problem 00:54:43 ... we don't want to revise the core spec when another API updates 00:55:21 ack 00:55:50 q? 00:55:52 ada: working on polyfill and tests, issues and PRs are welcome 00:55:52 ack ada 00:56:10 ... and we want to get people interested and get more feedback 00:57:08 bajones: if there's something in the repo, we won't berate you for putting up a PR 00:57:27 Where's the lightning talk sign-up? 00:57:28 ... we might say to hold off but we will never get upset if someone tries to contribute 00:57:33 q? 00:58:07 ack avada 00:58:17 ack avadacatavra 00:58:20 avadacatavra: talking about integrating with other API 00:58:28 ... made me think of permissions 00:58:37 ... do we integrate with that specification? 00:59:01 bajones: that is a good open question 00:59:24 ... NellWaliczek has done some exploration in the past 00:59:41 ... to give us a feel what could be done in this space 00:59:57 q+ To say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak information about the environment to content. 01:00:04 ... so maybe this should go in the core spec 01:00:05 q+ 01:00:16 ack kip 01:00:16 kip, you wanted to say that WebXR could provide information about the user's environment (AR Centric) useful for occlusion and spatial positioning in a way that doesn't leak 01:00:20 ... information about the environment to content. 01:00:37 kip: previously the thought spec was that audio didn't need deeper integration 01:00:41 q+ 01:01:03 ... one reason might be that webxr could provide information to webaudio 01:01:33 ... so you can do reverbertion and occlusion without giving the author access to that private information 01:01:34 q+ 01:01:52 zakim, close the queue 01:01:52 ok, ada, the speaker queue is closed 01:01:57 ack cwilso 01:02:31 cwilso: there is some function that we could provide to give the headpose to webaudio directly 01:02:40 ... we could hook it up in a different way 01:03:26 q- 01:03:28 ack cabanier 01:03:29 dino: you need to have permission because you will have always have permission 01:03:33 scribenick: cwilso 01:03:40 (was going to say the same thing as cwilso) 01:04:07 rik: for the permissions API, we hooked up in the browser 01:04:34 ... although that's divergent from current spec. 01:04:47 nell: please file an issue, since this would be noncomformant. 01:05:01 scribenick: cabinier 01:05:10 scribenick: cabanier 01:05:19 zakim, open the queue 01:05:19 ok, ada, the speaker queue is open 01:05:19 scribenick: cabanier 01:05:23 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RZTL69JsTxoJUyXNnu_2v0PPILqrDpYW3ZxDjMAqQ-M/edit#heading=h.qlpukl2oy1tq 01:05:31 topic: Feature Policy Discussion 01:05:46 https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22feature+policy%22 01:06:47 bajones: we have a feature that allows embedding in other pages, etc 01:07:10 ... you can say features can't be used in iframes, popups, etc 01:07:50 ... because we are a powerful, we want to integrate with the feature policy 01:08:56 ... up to this point, we stated that if the policy was blocked, the XR object would be gone from the navigator object 01:09:21 ... there is precedent in other spec, but we got feedback that this wasn't a recommended pattern 01:10:01 fms_cat has joined #immersive-web 01:10:03 ... what was recommended that we always expose it, but it is not available, it would reject everything 01:10:12 q+ 01:10:14 ... requestSession would always reject 01:10:48 ... we want to have a pattern going forward to feature policy is handled in a consistent way 01:10:53 joemedley: is this a pressing question? 01:11:16 q- 01:11:57 mounir: who implements this today? 01:12:19 bajones: google didn't do this. Did anyone do this? 01:12:35 ... it isn't widely implemented 01:12:39 q+ To say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal 01:12:45 q? 01:12:48 ack kip 01:12:48 kip, you wanted to say that we didn't implement in Gecko and are hoping to see this proposal 01:13:29 q+ 01:13:35 ack ada 01:13:36 kip: I'm support of nit hiding the xr object and failing the individual requests 01:13:40 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Feature-Policy#Browser_compatibility 01:13:45 ack ada 01:14:41 alexturn: I don't know 01:14:47 dino: I don't know either 01:15:01 (wrt how XR is handled) 01:15:12 If you need help getting this table updated, see me on break. 01:15:25 bajones: should we do a straw poll? 01:16:08 q+ 01:16:19 bajones: hopefull we will resolve this quite soon 01:16:25 ack cabanier 01:16:29 Q+ 01:16:40 scribenick:cwilso 01:16:44 rik: inline sessions? 01:16:54 scribenick: cabanier 01:16:57 bajones: intent is feature policy would block inline sessions as well 01:16:57 bajones: yes 01:17:21 ... the polyfill can do a good job to fill in the gap 01:17:40 NellWaliczek: we have inline session with spatial tracking 01:18:06 q? 01:18:07 bajones: it is possible to break out for sensor access for individual API 01:18:18 q+ 01:18:25 ack cwilso 01:18:27 q+ 01:18:35 q- 01:18:43 cwilso: I would suggest that people should comment on the pull request 01:18:59 ack avadacatavra 01:19:18 avadacatavra: are we saying that the proposal will break out different sensors 01:19:34 NellWaliczek: requestSession and sessionSupported 01:19:40 ... are the entry points 01:19:48 ada: let's do a poll 01:20:03 sorry 'bout that 01:20:06 bajones: no, we'll wait for comments on the PR 01:20:32 ... there's some more to go through. 01:21:36 ... we do want the polyfill to step in and fill the gaps 01:21:53 ... and the fallback is that you have no sensor data 01:22:01 ... for mouse style interactions 01:23:11 q? 01:23:28 ... the polyfill will fill the gap between feature policy and what developers want to do 01:24:00 ... when should new features policies be added? 01:24:16 ... the ar module shouldn't require its own feature policy 01:24:35 ... the data that is exposes to the page is not any different 01:24:53 ... in general we want to keep things simple for developers 01:25:02 q+ 01:25:14 ... we don't want the developers to have to turn on a bunch of policies 01:25:32 ack mounir 01:25:41 q+ 01:26:22 mounir: we're switching to xr for the policy, should we break it into VR or AR? 01:26:48 bajones: we are proposing that this is too granular 01:26:56 ... it's not an invalid point 01:27:24 ... there's a difference between requesting AR and turning on the camera 01:27:24 q+ 01:27:50 ... we don't want people to turn off because of the fear of camera data 01:28:00 q+ 01:28:03 NellWaliczek: there were issues files on this topic 01:28:14 ... there is no distinction between VR and AR 01:28:16 s/files/filed 01:28:42 ... the way we treat AR is just a hint to say that the real world is visible 01:29:01 ... the more effective approach is to do this in modules that require this