16:40:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
16:40:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/13-silver-irc
16:40:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:40:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference
16:40:09 <trackbot> Date: 13 September 2019
17:52:53 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver
17:53:01 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
17:53:17 <jeanne> regrets+ Bruce, Angela
17:58:00 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
17:58:00 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:58:03 <jeanne> agenda+ TPAC F2F questions or details?
17:58:03 <jeanne> agenda+ Conformance: Makoto's details on Japan's conformance
17:58:03 <jeanne> agenda+ Conformance: Report from Amazon on WCAG conformance issues
17:59:11 <joecron> joecron has joined #silver
18:00:16 <CharlesHall> CharlesHall has joined #silver
18:02:12 <Peter_Korn> Peter_Korn has joined #silver
18:02:38 <CharlesHall> present+
18:02:48 <jeanne> present:
18:02:59 <Peter_Korn> present+
18:02:59 <jeanne> Present+ jeanne, Charles, Peter
18:03:10 <jeanne> regrets- Peter
18:03:29 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/13-silver-minutes.html jeanne
18:06:35 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
18:06:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TPAC F2F questions or details?" taken up [from jeanne]
18:07:01 <jeanne> I Updated the wiki page with the remote access info for AGWG and APA
18:07:10 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
18:07:10 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, jeanne
18:07:21 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 2
18:07:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Conformance: Makoto's details on Japan's conformance" taken up [from jeanne]
18:08:09 <Cyborg_> Cyborg_ has joined #Silver
18:08:36 <Cyborg_> Present+
18:08:45 <jeanne> Encourage everyone to read Makoto's document
18:09:02 <jeanne> ... we will go back to it today or after TPAC
18:09:09 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 3
18:09:09 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Conformance: Report from Amazon on WCAG conformance issues" taken up [from jeanne]
18:09:26 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ByXEqqXuqWtDzxq2J6Vch27n4RWMZig7P426aPiIto/edit#heading=h.l4fyzhp4vw71
18:10:31 <jeanne> present+ Cyborg
18:11:13 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
18:11:43 <jeanne> PK: Trying to capture the challenges we find with large, dynamic websites
18:12:12 <jeanne> 1) Human testing.  We have identified the individual SC that are a problem in this area
18:12:35 <jeanne> ... for example, use of color.  We think there is a lot more to be identiified on a SC-by-SC basis
18:12:51 <jeanne> 2) Large dynamic sites are always under a level of construction
18:14:17 <jeanne> ... Conversations with colleagues that you can think of large, dynamic website as a city.  A web page is a room in a building.  You have to make the the room accessible: Switches, door width, etc. WCAG conformance applies to a collectio of rooms: a house, or a small neighborhood.
18:14:37 <jeanne> ... but when you scale it up to a city, you see that it is always under construction.
18:15:23 <jeanne> ... you can't really have every facit of the web site accessible all the time.
18:16:25 <jeanne> 3) Third-party content: one can make a WCAG Partial Conformance Claim by excluding the 3rd party conflict, but that (according to WCAG) is a statement of non-conformance.
18:16:29 <Cyborg_> question of clarification - when you mention 3rd parties, are you talking about 3rd party sellers or user reviews?
18:17:07 <KimD> KimD has joined #silver
18:17:19 <KimD> Present+
18:17:35 <Cyborg_> q+
18:19:16 <jeanne> Peter: MOre broadly at 3rd party.  A news aggregator (with photos), seller, or a large site like Facebook where almost anyone on the internet can add to that site.  Highly dymanic, highly large.  I am speaking of the whole gamut, with individual users as an extreme.
18:20:33 <jeanne> Cyborg: I see them as separate issues that should be parsed individually.  Sellers can be influenced because they want something from you, especially those with a contract relationship. THere is capacity for requiring rules from them, or offering incentives to them.
18:20:45 <jeanne> ... the user problem is a beast and it is hard to do it well.
18:21:12 <jeanne> q+ to talk about technical solutions to the user problem
18:21:17 <jeanne> ack cy
18:21:41 <CharlesHall> I think in this case of describing third-party at a general high level is still confined to the question of whether or not third-party content and technologies should be required to conform in order for the page (or flow) to conform.
18:21:45 <jeanne> Peter: Amazon Prime Video requires that all films accepted must have closed caption
18:22:06 <jeanne> ... O
18:22:46 <jeanne> ... I'm trying to say these are challenges, and we want to identify what the challenges are -- all of these have possible solutions
18:22:56 <jeanne> s/...O//
18:23:20 <Peter_Korn> q?
18:23:51 <jeanne> Cybele: Are there sites that are solutions to individual contributors?
18:23:54 <jeanne> ack jea
18:23:54 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about technical solutions to the user problem
18:26:00 <jeanne> jeanne: We talked at the Silver Design Sprint about giving more points to companies that use AI solutions for user-generated content
18:27:23 <jeanne> Peter: I haven't seen anything that helps identify the intent of the author.  AI is in its infancy
18:27:59 <jeanne> present+ Jennison
18:28:38 <Cyborg_> q+
18:28:40 <jeanne> CHarles: We are jumping into solutions instead of discussing whether it belongs in the conformance model
18:29:07 <jeanne> Peter: When I look at some of the proposals, it feels like they are not addressing these challenges
18:29:20 <jeanne> ... they are talking about the number of points to give.
18:32:44 <jeanne> ... would it make sense to say that right way to look at an individual page is all the criteria.  THe right way to look at a large complex site would be different
18:33:36 <jeanne> jeanne: I proposed this a year ago,  that a large site would have a set of regulations, and a small site would have different ones.  It would be self-selecting.  This is inspired by the LEEDS green building model
18:33:55 <jeanne> Peter: There are some good ideas in the LEEDS model.
18:37:52 <jeanne> Jeanne: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1II0MP6l_Xn8GaRhxGSJPIbCto7xTLww3zpSjr6k57g4/edit#heading=h.mv8s7r5ao8a6 <- Exceptions list we identified
18:38:15 <jeanne> Jennison: Where users reply in a different human language than the dominant language on the page
18:38:33 <jeanne> ... we don't have a way to identify language of parts
18:39:59 <jeanne> Peter: We can do some idenitification of language, but it doesn't work in small snippets.  It's a great addition to the list.
18:40:37 <jeanne> ... some of these challenges are magnified when they are used in different places/
18:41:00 <jeanne> ack cyb
18:41:41 <jeanne> Cyborg: We are talking about the range of examples.  A way to look at it might be:
18:42:24 <jeanne> ... situations where a larger site may be enabling a 3rd party. How much is the larger site responsible for that behavior?
18:43:19 <jeanne> ... Is there an "undue burden" test?  In Canada, a larger organization would have a harder "undue burden" to prove
18:43:57 <jeanne> ... Is there a question of new rules, or is it exempting things from the rules.
18:44:37 <jeanne> ... In the example of the accessibility of cities, it probably increases the liability of cities.  It is very complex
18:45:40 <Peter_Korn> hello?
18:45:53 <jeanne> Peter: It's a big accessibility issue here when people are leaving rental scooters in the street?  How does that liability compare to a child leaving a bicycle in the street?  When no business is involved, does that change things?
18:46:01 <Peter_Korn> It seems my interface to this WebEx system drops audio after a certain amount of tinme.
18:46:05 <Peter_Korn> This is the third time now...
18:46:11 <Peter_Korn> I will drop & re-enter the WebEx.
18:48:01 <jeanne> Peter: This is another example of how the challenge is there whether or not a business is involved, or a non-profit.
18:48:47 <Cyborg_> there is always concern with 3rd party exemptions that this can encourage 3rd party partitioning
18:49:50 <jeanne> ... I gave the example of captions on any Prime Video film distribution.  We have seen work to prompt people to do the right things.  How do you motivate people who don't care or don't know
18:50:39 <KimD> I'm here but not able to talk
18:50:46 <jeanne> jeanne: In ATAG work 5 years ago, we decided against prompting because prompting doesn't work.  We went for standards to include accessibility features, to make them easier to find and easier to use
18:55:20 <KimD> Sorry, I need to leave and have lost audio again.
18:55:27 <jeanne> I encourage everyone to dial in remotely (5:00 PT) Sunday and MOnday nights
18:55:41 <KimD> KimD has left #silver
18:55:42 <jeanne> ... we will be talking about these issues first
18:56:06 <jeanne> ... otherwise, we will take up the discussion in two weeks in the evening Tuesdya Conformance call
18:56:11 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:56:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/13-silver-minutes.html jeanne
18:56:25 <jeanne> Jeanne: Safe travels to all going to TPAC
18:57:50 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/13-silver-minutes.html jeanne
18:58:19 <jeanne> present- Cyborg
18:58:28 <jeanne> present- Peter
18:59:22 <jeanne> s|s/...O//||
18:59:43 <jeanne> s|... O||
18:59:51 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/13-silver-minutes.html jeanne