13:51:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #COGA
13:51:40 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/12-COGA-irc
13:51:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 389
13:51:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:51:45 <trackbot> Date: 12 September 2019
13:52:01 <Rachael> agenda+ action items
13:52:52 <Rachael> agenda-
13:53:05 <Rachael> zakim takeup next item
13:53:49 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 1
13:53:49 <Zakim> agendum 1. "actions  - see https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Actions" taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
13:54:01 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 2
13:54:01 <Zakim> agendum 2. "priorities at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YH4YETBmAdhfL9p8FK5ATUiXDGibeJh66psQCSUAvLQ/edit#gid=0" taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
13:54:11 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 3
13:54:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "editing update at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rt51xg57oZW56mfTw_t33T9zlPDOV7o4Za6veCCqDtI/edit#gid=0" taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
13:54:15 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 4
13:54:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "silver feedback https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2019Sep/0010.html" taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
13:54:19 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 6
13:54:19 <Zakim> agendum 6. "action items" taken up [from Rachael]
13:54:23 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 5
13:54:23 <Zakim> agendum 5. "persona todo list : https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Persona_to_do_list" taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
13:55:39 <LisaSeemanKest_> LisaSeemanKest_ has joined #coga
13:55:49 <Rachael> agenda+ action items
13:56:04 <Rachael> agenda+ Review github feedback and responses (Steve)
13:56:15 <Rachael> agenda+ Mental Health Paper
13:56:33 <Rachael> agenda+ WCAG 2.2 SC Check In
13:56:49 <Rachael> agenda + Finalize silver response
13:56:56 <Rachael> agenda+ EU Review
13:57:15 <Rachael> agenda+ Working Group Note
13:59:09 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
14:00:51 <Jennie> present+
14:01:48 <stevelee> present+
14:03:21 <Rachael> regrets+ John Kirkwood
14:03:36 <Rachael> regrets+ Abi
14:03:40 <Rachael> regrets+ EA
14:04:34 <Justine> Justine has joined #coga
14:05:47 <LisaSeemanKest_> agenda?
14:07:16 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
14:07:26 <Rachael> zakim, takeup item 8
14:07:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeup item 8', Rachael
14:07:37 <Jennie> Steve: everyone once in a while COGA gets a Github message that there is a message which requires a response.
14:07:43 <Rachael>  zakim, take up item 8
14:07:43 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Review github feedback and responses (Steve)" taken up [from Rachael]
14:07:59 <Jennie> Steve: I will monitor this, and add important discussion pieces to the list and bring it up in meetings.
14:08:08 <Jennie> Steve: e.g. 1 was about a missing link.
14:08:28 <Jennie> Steve: we should not just remove URLs, and we will in the future be careful how we do that.
14:08:30 <LisaSeemanKest_> q+
14:08:42 <LisaSeemanKest_> ack f
14:08:56 <Rachael> ack lis
14:09:08 <Jennie> Lisa: I think the response of the issue should go through the task force.
14:09:28 <Jennie> ...then people can say "hang on, I'm not ok with that." Especially when you get rid of a URI
14:09:34 <Jennie> ...the old URI needs a note.
14:09:46 <Jennie> Steve: that's what I asked Roy to do.
14:09:54 <Jennie> Lisa: it should say this has been moved to here.
14:09:59 <Jennie> Steve: Has he done that?
14:10:23 <Jennie> Lisa: I don't know. Then the response can just be "Thanks for pointing that out. We have followed up."
14:10:50 <Jennie> ...and in general I think it is better that whoever is doing the issues, it is a 2 second discussion, indicating which ones you want to answer and how
14:11:05 <Jennie> Steve: How long should I wait?
14:11:12 <Jennie> Lisa: it depends on the issue.
14:11:31 <Jennie> Lisa: It depends on what you have put as the title, which helps me understand if I need to read it in depth.
14:12:13 <Jennie> Lisa: If you are writing an issue to the list, maybe that is how we want to handle it. And Rachael and I should decide if they get closed.
14:12:21 <Jennie> Rachael: is everyone else comfortable with this?
14:12:24 <Jennie> +1
14:12:48 <Jennie> Steve: I created a work flows page, and can add this to the work flow.
14:13:06 <Jennie> Lisa: I didn't know there is a work flow page.
14:13:32 <Jennie> Steve: I always state that I have created them, so I'm not sure what has gone wrong. I post it on the list.
14:13:43 <Jennie> Rachael: maybe this can be an issue for the planning call?
14:13:45 <Jennie> Lisa: yes please.
14:14:11 <Jennie> Rachael: Sounds like we will post the issue to the list, bring it up in the meeting once, and then close the issue.
14:14:17 <Jennie> Lisa: that sounds good.
14:14:25 <Jennie> Steve: what about when something can be resolved on the list?
14:14:33 <Jennie> Lisa: I think it is better to bring it up on the call.
14:14:55 <Jennie> Rachael: I think it can be part of the actions so people are aware. It doesn't have to be a detailed review - just a "heads up."
14:14:59 <Jennie> Lisa: I agree.
14:15:12 <Jennie> +1
14:15:19 <Jennie> Justine: that sounds reasonable.
14:15:27 <Jennie> Steve: it would nice to have people be more engaged.
14:16:12 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 9
14:16:12 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Mental Health Paper" taken up [from Rachael]
14:16:13 <Jennie> Rachael: item 9 - none of those people are here.
14:16:36 <Jennie> Lisa: Thadeus worked on this in the past, and he added some comments.
14:16:50 <Jennie> Lisa: is there anyone else we want to reach out to, like Renaldo?
14:17:06 <stevelee> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Workflows
14:17:15 <Jennie> Lisa: I can take the action to reach out to those who have been involved.
14:17:24 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 10
14:17:24 <Zakim> agendum 10. "WCAG 2.2 SC Check In" taken up [from Rachael]
14:17:34 <Rachael> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11IKqjRFvkRd2dAfUiyc5whhB3yIYXvSiirWct7KQIB0/edit#gid=0
14:17:50 <Jennie> Rachael: we are doing very well, in my opinion. We are in second drafts on most of these.
14:18:22 <Jennie> ...we have a 1st draft on the no memorization, but there was a conversation about this at the AG meeting.
14:18:56 <Rachael> jennie: At the AG meeting (which had technical difficulties dropping people) they asked for a reference to research on cognitive fatigue.
14:19:28 <Rachael> ...they were discussing the SC on do not rely on user memory. One member asked if there was reserach on the phrase about mental fatique. They would like 1-2 studies referenced to back up the statement
14:19:34 <LisaSeemanKest_> q+
14:19:53 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#pattern-do-not-rely-on-users-memorizing-information
14:19:58 <Rachael> ack LisaSeemanKest_
14:20:13 <Jennie> Lisa: we had things like with Dyslexia, your skills decrease as you get more tired.
14:20:16 <Jennie> +1
14:20:49 <Jennie> *that +1 was accidental
14:20:52 <Jennie> q+
14:21:01 <Justine> q+
14:21:02 <Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e46eqQnVYqdSyqo29pyJoY1QynRH9v95YW8soTTbfsU/edit
14:21:31 <Rachael> ack justine
14:21:43 <Jennie> Justine: I was reviewing the SCs
14:22:08 <Jennie> ...the part I was questioning in particular where it says "stress blocks the brain..."
14:22:30 <Jennie> Rachael: it is a plain english summary from the SC
14:22:45 <Jennie> Rachael: David wrote this, and we can ask him to clarify.
14:22:49 <Rachael> q?
14:24:03 <Jennie> Lisa: I'm not sure why this is here.
14:24:19 <Jennie> ...it does not seem to be related to cognitive disabilities.
14:24:27 <Jennie> Rachael: it may be worth you reviewing this SC.
14:24:39 <Jennie> ...I was going to set up a meeting for you, me and David.
14:24:41 <Jennie> Lisa: yes.
14:25:15 <Jennie> ...he might be getting at is in brain injury when people are relearning mental skills, so they may not be able to do.
14:25:29 <Rachael> ack Jennie
14:26:35 <Rachael> jennie: I did previous research on cognitive load and stress. I wonder if David is trying to demonstrate that in certain situations with hard forms it can increase the issue that the person has. I wonder if this needs rephrasing.
14:26:49 <Rachael> q?
14:26:51 <Jennie> *looks great!
14:27:14 <Jennie> Rachael: I'm going to set up a meeting with Lisa, Rachael, Jennie, David
14:27:31 <Jennie> ...we can look at the wording and see if we can adjust it to meet the concerns.
14:27:44 <Jennie> ...I don't think any of the SCs proposed are in danger of being cut.
14:27:46 <Jennie> q+
14:27:53 <Rachael> ack Jennie
14:28:41 <LisaSeemanKest_> can u put a link in the channel
14:29:21 <Rachael> q?
14:29:37 <Jennie> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1fX4Iw169OGUny5RTd70S8qAneYy5e0hr7zupE21gPBM%2Fedit&data=02%7C01%7Cjennie.delisi%40state.mn.us%7Cb5ad966c913147defe8908d73565dfe9%7Ceb14b04624c445198f26b89c2159828c%7C0%7C0%7C637036583984543636&sdata=1ARIsxAY8PTPnGgIT9p18b83zgKK%2FD4VW5mo47AuiOY%3D&reserved=0
14:30:27 <Jennie> Steve and I worked on updating the SC for Findable Help, and removed some language that we knew would not pass.
14:30:42 <Jennie> We need the group to review, and give feedback. If by end of Sunday, that would be great.
14:30:48 <Jennie> Rachael: I can review
14:31:02 <Jennie> ...we will put out a note by end of day on Sunday.
14:31:58 <Rachael> q+
14:32:05 <Jennie> Lisa: what was removed?
14:32:15 <Jennie> Jennie: the location
14:32:31 <Jennie> Rachael: what we did with ours was to add an either or
14:32:44 <Jennie> ...location on the page, or personalization.
14:32:51 <Jennie> ...I met with Alastair on this, and John Folio
14:33:14 <Jennie> ...personalization should have a draft out, and a secondary spec does something similar.
14:33:15 <Jennie> q+
14:33:21 <Jennie> ack Rachael
14:33:25 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:33:41 <Jennie> Lisa: what is the date for this? There is actually only module 1.
14:33:59 <Jennie> Rachael: the current schedule worked - there was enough information to use it for the SC
14:34:06 <stevelee> q+
14:34:06 <Jennie> ...it was tight, but it was ok.
14:34:25 <Jennie> Lisa: what is exactly needed? I think we have consensus on those modules.
14:34:38 <Jennie> Rachael: for us it was marking the importance.
14:34:48 <Jennie> ...for Jennie it would be location.
14:34:57 <Jennie> ...John Folio is aware.
14:35:03 <Rachael> q?
14:35:05 <Rachael> ack Jennie
14:35:46 <Rachael> Jennie: Feedback from EA was interesting. Why I'm hoping more people will comment. There are other user groups who have identified other locations. Screen reader users are used to finding help in the footer.
14:35:57 <Rachael> ...EA's point is that there is a standard practice in use that this would disrupt.
14:36:59 <LisaSeemanKest_> q+
14:36:59 <Rachael> ...if we go to the root of this, the intent is that it is reliable. That reliable would be something most people would find. Taking the risk of personalization. If that becomes what stops this from being passed, would we be better going for the intent that help is findable?
14:37:00 <Rachael> ack stevelee
14:37:03 <Jennie> Steve: I think EA is correct, that contact is typically in the footer
14:37:18 <Jennie> ...I think we state following existing patterns.
14:37:46 <Jennie> ...this may apply to the other SC as well. If there is an explicit standard/pattern, we don't want to tell people advice that stops them from doing that
14:38:02 <Justine> q+
14:38:10 <Rachael> q?
14:38:11 <Jennie> Lisa: how about something like "on every page help can be programatically determined or as it at the top of every page."
14:38:21 <Jennie> Steve: that then breaks it
14:38:41 <Rachael> ack LisaSeemanKest_
14:38:52 <Rachael> q?
14:39:04 <Rachael> q+ Rachael
14:39:06 <Jennie> Lisa: in general, you never get it ever at the extent that you want it, so getting it in at all is fantastic.
14:39:43 <Jennie> ...you can put a lot in the advisory, and if you are using testing, always test that people can find the help and use it properly, but that can't be in the SC. Having something in is a really good hook.
14:39:59 <Jennie> ...don't feel too bad if you get it into the SC.
14:40:10 <Jennie> Steve: we did clarify the types of help.
14:40:24 <Jennie> Lisa: WCAG 1.0 got criticized for being too vague.
14:40:54 <Jennie> Steve: you showed me SCs that said context help is available, but this would provide more information.
14:41:04 <Jennie> Lisa: there is the understanding section, so people read this.
14:41:23 <Jennie> ...even just ask someone you know with forgetfulness to see if they can find the help.
14:41:32 <Rachael> ack Justine
14:41:41 <LisaSeemanKest_> steve here is wcag 1.0 https://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
14:42:26 <Jennie> Justine: a related comment is that we might want to consider an essential exception. Examples like testing - how to respond when accessing the help during timed questions may need to be addressed.
14:42:29 <Jennie> +1
14:42:53 <Jennie> Lisa: can you explain more?
14:43:49 <Jennie> Justine: in the example of standardized assessment, a student with a cognitive disability may have an accommodation like extra time; and if the timing of the assessment negatively gets impacted by them accessing the help
14:43:56 <Rachael> q?
14:44:01 <Rachael> q-
14:44:04 <Jennie> Lisa: I don't think that will be a factor
14:44:06 <Jennie> q+
14:44:17 <Jennie> *I just lost connection
14:44:19 <Rachael> q+ stevelee
14:45:01 <Rachael> lisa: I wondering why we should say. There are a lot of shortcuts. you don't have to access it but its available.
14:45:15 <Jennie> *I'm back
14:45:17 <Rachael> Justine: the help might be avaible through another mechanism like labeled buttons.
14:45:52 <Jennie> Lisa: I know that this example you want to is not a requirement, you don't have to use the help.
14:46:27 <Jennie> Lisa: this one is often where people use but people who need the help often can't find it.
14:46:57 <Jennie> ...they have an online option for practicing sometimes but this may not enable them to practice with their AT
14:47:06 <Jennie> ...and people do worse because of it.
14:47:37 <Jennie> ...FAQs, for example.
14:47:46 <Rachael> q?
14:47:51 <Rachael> ack Jennie
14:49:12 <Rachael> Jennie: I had +1 to Justine's comment but Lisa makes a good point. How to use the interface causes problems here. I wonder if we need to go back to the standards document but then usability testing needs to occur.
14:49:44 <Rachael> stevelee: Justine had suggested help buttons but does context specific help address that?
14:50:09 <Rachael> Jennie: It is different.
14:50:44 <Jennie> Justine: there seems to be an overlap here, between the context specific help. We may be able achieve some of this the same way.
14:51:04 <Jennie> Steve: I think this is when a person is stuck beyond what they can find in that context specific help.
14:51:05 <Rachael> q?
14:51:13 <Jennie> ...not how you use the user interface.
14:51:18 <Rachael> ack stevelee
14:51:19 <LisaSeemanKest_> q+
14:52:09 <Rachael> steve: How long do we give the group to respond?
14:52:23 <Rachael> Jennie: It sounds like we'll give it to Sunday and then review it Monday.
14:52:35 <Rachael> ..I think we agreed that would be ok.
14:52:46 <Rachael> Lisa: Ask for an agenda item in the call when you need review.
14:52:57 <Rachael> ..and tell us it needs to be this week.
14:53:28 <Rachael> ack LisaSeemanKest_
14:54:11 <Jennie> Lisa: I had something that I wanted to note: I would love it if it would say instead of just human contact details, details that take you directly to a human, self help option,
14:54:13 <Jennie> q+
14:54:32 <Jennie> Steve: what do you mean direct? A telephone number that would go directly to a person?
14:54:52 <Jennie> Lisa: like a telephone system that goes into a menuing system
14:55:11 <Jennie> Steve: we have an item about chat bots
14:55:22 <Rachael> ack Jennie
14:55:26 <Jennie> Lisa: but I am referring more to another system
14:56:28 <Rachael> Jennie: Concern it will be difficult to implement and  the phone system is out of scope
14:56:57 <Rachael> Lisa: Can we add it to the understanding document.
14:57:14 <Rachael> Jennie: Please provide more comments through any mechanism
14:57:43 <Rachael> Zakim take up item 12
14:57:49 <Rachael> zakim, takeup item 12
14:57:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'takeup item 12', Rachael
14:57:58 <Jennie> Lisa: I sent an email to the list about what the EU commission wants to fund as research and innovation projects.
14:58:02 <Jennie> ...I can make suggestions
14:58:06 <Rachael> zakim, take up item 12
14:58:06 <Zakim> agendum 12. "EU Review" taken up [from Rachael]
14:58:18 <Jennie> ...we should think: if this got funded, this could make a huge difference to us.
14:58:25 <laura> laura has joined #coga
14:58:31 <Jennie> ...we wouldn't personally get the funding, but a university somewhere would fund it.
14:58:58 <Jennie> ...if there are automatic testing tools for this, authoring tools, it is that much more likely that it would go through the WCAG process.
14:59:13 <Jennie> ...we would be in a stronger position to get through WCAG process next time.
14:59:19 <Rachael> q+
14:59:21 <Jennie> ...are there other things like this that people feel we need.
14:59:30 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:59:33 <Jennie> Rachael: are you including personalization, tools that take advantage of it?
14:59:37 <Jennie> Lisa: yes.
14:59:40 <Rachael> q?
14:59:54 <Jennie> Lisa: that is unlikely to get in because it was funded by the Easy Reading project.
15:00:04 <Jennie> Rachael: we will wrap this up.
15:00:12 <Jennie> Lisa: comments on the list would be great.
15:00:39 <Jennie> Rachael: I will have a hard time making the editors meeting - shall we cancel?
15:01:00 <Jennie> * I have to sign off - can someone else wrap up the minutes?
15:01:34 <Rachael> Steve: Action update, working on the divs
15:04:07 <Rachael> rrsagent, make log world
15:04:26 <Rachael> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/12-COGA-minutes.html Rachael
15:04:39 <Rachael> trackbot end meeting
15:04:39 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:04:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Fazio, stevelee_, Rachael, Jennie, stevelee
15:04:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/12-COGA-minutes.html trackbot
15:04:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:04:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items