18:46:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web
18:46:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-immersive-web-irc
18:47:11 <atsushi_> zakim, this is Immersive Web WG
18:47:11 <Zakim> got it, atsushi_
18:47:38 <atsushi_> rrsagent, make log public
18:47:44 <atsushi_> meeting: immersive web WG
18:47:50 <atsushi_> chair: Ada, cwilso
18:47:56 <atsushi_> zakim, clear agenda
18:47:56 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:48:19 <atsushi_> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2019/08/27-immersive-web-minutes.html
18:49:16 <atsushi_> agenda+ TAG Feedback: Should supportsSession resolve with a boolean? - From the TAG feedback for the WebXR API:
18:49:16 <atsushi_> agenda+ [Feature Policy] should not control exposure of navigator.xr - https://immersive-web.github.io/webxr/#feature-policy currently says that the "policy-controlled feature... controls whether the xr attribute is exposed on the Navigator object."
18:49:18 <atsushi_> agenda+ Revisit transient input sources & XRInputSource.targetRaySpace - Manishearth - It seems to me that the description of XRInputSources currently do not cover well the cases of XRInputSources that do not constantly produce positional data. The current approach to such input sources is to expose them only for the duration of their primary action (see transient input section in the spec).
18:49:20 <atsushi_> agenda+ Figure out what the additive blend mode should do with alpha values - https://immersive-web.github.io/webxr-ar-module/#dom-xrenvironmentblendmode-additive
18:49:32 <atsushi_> rrsagent, please draft minutes
18:49:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi_
18:49:54 <atsushi_> Zakim, agenda?
18:49:54 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:49:55 <Zakim> 1. TAG Feedback: Should supportsSession resolve with a boolean? - From the TAG feedback for the WebXR API: [from atsushi_]
18:49:55 <Zakim> 2. [Feature Policy] should not control exposure of navigator.xr - https://immersive-web.github.io/webxr/#feature-policy currently says that the "policy-controlled feature...
18:49:55 <Zakim> ... controls whether the xr attribute is exposed on the Navigator object." [from atsushi_]
18:49:58 <Zakim> 3. Revisit transient input sources & XRInputSource.targetRaySpace - Manishearth - It seems to me that the description of XRInputSources currently do not cover well the cases of
18:49:58 <Zakim> ... XRInputSources that do not constantly produce positional data. The current approach to such input sources is to expose them only for the duration of their primary action (see
18:49:58 <Zakim> ... transient input section in the spec). [from atsushi_]
18:50:02 <Zakim> 4. Figure out what the additive blend mode should do with alpha values - https://immersive-web.github.io/webxr-ar-module/#dom-xrenvironmentblendmode-additive [from atsushi_]
18:57:51 <trevorfsmith> present+
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19:01:07 <Leonard> Leonard has joined #immersive-web
19:01:23 <Leonard> present+
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19:02:34 <ada> present+
19:02:42 <bajones> present+
19:02:59 <ada> Thank you for setting up the agenda atsushi_!
19:03:09 <LocMDao> present+
19:03:17 <ada> What is happening at the moment?
19:03:35 <ada> Is someone talking to the group or is that background noise?
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19:03:48 <LocMDao> sorry
19:03:51 <mounir> present+
19:04:10 <bajones> No worries!
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19:05:09 <ada> scribenick: Leonard
19:05:13 <cabanier> present+
19:05:14 <Manishearth> present+
19:05:26 <Leonard> scribe Leonard
19:06:09 <Leonard> Ada: TPAC next week ==> no WebEX meeting next week. Meeting will be in Japan -- all day
19:06:45 <Leonard> Ada: Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/master/meetings/wg/2019-09-10-Immersive_Web_Working_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
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19:06:54 <Leonard> ... #1 TAG Feedback
19:07:12 <kip> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/824
19:07:12 <Manishearth> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/824
19:07:40 <Leonard> Brandon: Feedback from TAG -- Should supportsSession resolve with Boolean? (https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/824)
19:08:18 <Leonard> ... A function that returns a promise should return the same way as the promise is resolved.
19:09:12 <Leonard> ... If the function is has* or is* should return T/F. Currently the function rejects if it is not available. This can be extended to
19:10:09 <Leonard> ... other session functions defined in the spec. Rejects should be reserved for really serious problems (h/w failures, really bad parameters...)
19:10:17 <mounir> q+
19:10:43 <kip> q+
19:11:06 <Leonard> ... Not really interested in re-evaluating other promises in the spec, but this one is faily minor. It is a breaking change and if desired, should be done soon.
19:11:18 <ada> ack mounir
19:12:20 <Leonard> Mounir: Supports leaving as is because of the high cost for all existing applications
19:12:55 <Leonard> Brandon: That is a valid point. Not too many WebXR experiences online. Primary ones are example and other experimental mostly dealing
19:13:02 <atsushi_> i/Ada: Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web//topic: TAG Feedback: Should supportsSession resolve with a boolean? - From the TAG feedback for the WebXR API/
19:13:14 <atsushi_> rrsagent, please draft minutes
19:13:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi_
19:13:16 <cabanier> q+
19:13:42 <LocMDao> q+
19:13:44 <Leonard> ... with Chrome origin.
19:14:24 <Leonard> ... How many other APIs follow this pattern and resolve to FALSE to indicate negative case?
19:15:12 <Leonard> Sam: On Chrome origin: There are about 100 signed up with ~26K sessions, 4-5K clients over the last ~5 days
19:15:37 <atsushi_> s|/github.com/immersive-web//topic: TAG Feedback: Should supportsSession resolve with a boolean? - From the TAG feedback for the WebXR API||
19:15:43 <Leonard> Brandon: Origin trial is based on an older version of API ("broken" wrt to current)
19:15:50 <atsushi_> i|Ada: Agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/|topic: TAG Feedback: Should supportsSession resolve with a boolean? - From the TAG feedback for the WebXR API|
19:15:52 <atsushi_> rrsagent, please draft minutes
19:15:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi_
19:17:08 <ada> ack kip
19:17:11 <Leonard> ... This change could be difficult to detect by developers because it is slightly hidden
19:18:11 <Leonard> Kip: Support of change. Asked locally about change and get feedback. A promise should be rejected if it the promise can't be done.
19:18:42 <Leonard> ... If a question is asked, then it should be answered if possible; rejected if not answerable.
19:19:07 <Leonard> ... A number of APIs appear to agree with this mechanism.
19:19:14 <Leonard> Brandon: Likes Kit
19:19:42 <Leonard> ... 's explanation and how to determine rejection/provide response
19:20:43 <Leonard> Piotr: This is the right pattern to follow, but is it worth the effort to make the change?
19:20:46 <ada> ack cabanier
19:21:01 <klausw> q+ to ask if we do change this, can we batch with other changes (if any) to avoid further churn?
19:21:16 <Leonard> Rik: Alternative? remove supportSession and create new API to handling things the "correct" way
19:22:10 <Leonard> Brandon: Not a fan of launching a new API to replace a deprecated feature. But does think there is value at breaking API so that it is clear
19:22:41 <Leonard> ... that things changed. Doesn't like parallel versions in a new API
19:22:47 <ada> ack LocMDao
19:23:44 <Leonard> LocMDao: Agree with change (at least in the long run). Has 4 projects that would probably break, but willing to deal with it as long as this is not a regular occurrence.
19:23:47 <ada> ack klausw
19:23:47 <Zakim> klausw, you wanted to ask if we do change this, can we batch with other changes (if any) to avoid further churn?
19:24:36 <Leonard> Klaus: Make all breaking changes at once (and soon). Concerned about support for the process.
19:25:39 <ada> q+
19:25:43 <Leonard> Brandon: Agree with concern. Wants to make it before any browsers ship with current API. If change were made today, it would probably not make Chrome 78.
19:26:01 <Leonard> ... [revised by someone] Almost certain
19:27:03 <Leonard> ... Mozilla is probably the same. WG needs to determine if breaking change is suitable at this point
19:27:12 <ada> ack ada
19:27:21 <Leonard> Ada: Is there likely to be other breaking changes from TAG feedback?
19:28:01 <Leonard> Brandon: No idea at present. Hope that this is the primary breaking change.
19:28:14 <trevorfsmith> +1
19:28:16 <Leonard> Poll time: +1 for do change; -1 no change
19:28:18 <ada> +1
19:28:19 <bajones> -1
19:28:19 <alcooper_Google> -1
19:28:20 <kip> +1
19:28:20 <cabanier> +1
19:28:21 <bialpio> -1
19:28:21 <Leonard> +1
19:28:23 <samdrazin> -1
19:28:23 <mounir> -1
19:28:27 <Manishearth> +1
19:28:35 <klausw> -1
19:29:03 <Art> Art has joined #immersive-web
19:29:06 <Art> +1
19:29:20 <LocMDao> +1
19:29:24 <Leonard> Ada: Poll is too even to call.
19:29:52 <trevorfsmith> Is it? I read it as everyone but Google thinks the change should be made.
19:30:14 <Leonard> Brandon: Suggest no action at this time. Discuss during TPAC with TAG in room, especially to find out if there are other breaking changes.
19:30:44 <Leonard> ... Willingness to do this depends on number of breaking changes from TAG.
19:30:59 <Leonard> Ada: TAG meeting will be Monday PM
19:31:43 <Leonard> Agenda #2: Feature Policy should not control exposure of navigator.xr (https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/823)
19:31:52 <bajones> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RZTL69JsTxoJUyXNnu_2v0PPILqrDpYW3ZxDjMAqQ-M/edit?usp=sharing
19:33:38 <Leonard> Brandon: Platform has moved away from controlling the availability of feature.
19:33:44 <mounir> q+
19:34:05 <Leonard> ... doesn't feel it would be productive to read and make decision during call. Need to discuss at TPAC.
19:34:13 <ada> ack mounir
19:35:14 <Leonard> Mounir: Like to have a summary of document posted by Brandon
19:36:48 <Leonard> Brandon: Just reject promise. This is not a breaking change in Chrome. Would not be a breaking change for browsers that hide the attribute.
19:37:35 <Leonard> Agenda #3: Additive Blend Mode (https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/14)
19:37:41 <bialpio> q+
19:37:50 <Leonard> WHoops. Scratch the above
19:38:19 <Leonard> Agenda #3: Revisit transient input sources & XRInputSource.targetRaySpace (https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/819)
19:38:20 <bialpio> issue: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/819
19:39:51 <Leonard> <unknown>: Expose event that notifies application of input sources. Piggy-back on event for indicating input source is available.
19:40:48 <Leonard> ... it also seems to add complexity to rest of spec. Difficult to implement, especially for hit testing.
19:41:01 <Leonard> Above from Piotr
19:41:04 <bajones> q+
19:41:14 <ada> ack bialpio
19:41:50 <Leonard> Piotr [bialpio]: Proposed a solution that separates the two concepts with separate events
19:41:52 <ada> ack bajones
19:42:47 <Leonard> Brandon: Transient events: touch screen, voice activation, etc. Edge cases that most of the time appiles to inline session.
19:43:21 <Leonard> ... trying to avoid input sources that might happen or never dies
19:43:47 <Leonard> Piotr: Concerned about time and longevity
19:44:46 <Leonard> Brandon: Supporting this concept makes portions of API more complex. Nell thinks that an existing event could create a subscription so
19:44:55 <Leonard> ... tracking events could be handled
19:45:54 <Leonard> Piotr: Trying to understand the complexity for something that should be simple. Need support for arbitrary arrays.
19:47:11 <Leonard> Brandon: Existing APIs (ARCore/ARKit) use to have a limition. Thinks that the limitation has been lifted.
19:47:20 <ada> q+
19:47:46 <ada> q-
19:48:19 <Leonard> Piotr: Concern about optional portions of the spec and lack of uniform implementations
19:48:32 <Manishearth> q+
19:49:34 <Leonard> Conversation continues: Concern about delay (missing) information from point of subscription to receiving first data.
19:51:46 <ada> ack Manishearth
19:52:10 <Leonard> Manish: Possible to have a general transient source event?
19:52:41 <Leonard> Piotr: Might work.
19:53:48 <Leonard> Agenda #4: Additive Blend Mode (https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/14)
19:53:55 <klausw> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/14#issuecomment-528618770
19:55:09 <cabanier> q+
19:55:11 <klausw> q+ to say additional comments
19:55:25 <Leonard> Manish: See comment link above. Issue with additive devices. Is/is not pre-multiply alpha? Can it be requested?
19:55:25 <Manishearth> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-ar-module/issues/14#issuecomment-529595422
19:55:53 <cabanier> q-
19:55:59 <cabanier> q+
19:56:17 <Leonard> ... Need to specify how do AR additive layers work.
19:56:31 <ada> ack klausw
19:56:31 <Zakim> klausw, you wanted to say additional comments
19:57:09 <Leonard> Klaus: Thinks no one wants to use non-pre-multiply alpha for AR. Should be a property of the default frame buffer
19:57:54 <Leonard> ... How should developer notification happen?
19:58:39 <Leonard> Brandon: Existing pre-multiply flag applies to default canvas. WebGL does not work that way.
19:58:45 <ada> ack cabanier
19:59:24 <Leonard> Rik: Recommends closing this issue and creating a new one that just addresses the open issue.
19:59:39 <Leonard> Brandon and Manish supports that position
19:59:48 <LocMDao> q+ on TPAC
19:59:55 <Leonard> Ada: If that is done, please tag with F2F so it can be handled next week.
20:00:21 <Leonard> LocDao: Demos at TPAC, does time need to be requested.
20:00:50 <Leonard> Ada: Create an issue in Administrative repositiory to request time (applies to everyone)
20:01:03 <klausw> q+ do we want a TPAC channel on webvr slack?
20:01:10 <klausw> q+ to say do we want a TPAC channel on webvr slack?
20:01:24 <Leonard> Brandon: WG has time during W3C demo time to explain to everyone
20:01:46 <Leonard> Ada: Please submit demo requests
20:02:15 <Leonard> Ada: Meeting adjurned 1:02 PM PDT
20:03:53 <Leonard> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-immersive-web-minutes.html Leonard
20:04:06 <Leonard> RRSagent, make log public
20:08:55 <Leonard> present-