18:01:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:01:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-irc
18:01:49 <mck> rrsagent, make log public
18:02:16 <ZoeBijl> present+
18:02:22 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:02:27 <MarkMccarthy> present+
18:02:28 <mck> MEETING: September 10, 2019 Authoring Practices Task Force Telecon
18:02:36 <mck> rrsagent, make log public
18:02:45 <mck> CHAIR: Matt King
18:02:52 <mck> present+ Matt-King
18:02:59 <mck> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
18:03:53 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
18:05:32 <carmacleod> present+
18:06:44 <carmacleod> scribe: carmacleod
18:07:06 <carmacleod> agenda?
18:07:51 <MarkMccarthy> Link to agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-10%2C-2019-Meeting
18:08:15 <jamesn> present+
18:09:04 <carmacleod> agenda?
18:09:13 <MarkMccarthy> TOPIC: Future meetings
18:09:16 <mck> agenda link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-10%2C-2019-Meeting
18:10:10 <carmacleod> TOPIC: Third Working Draft Milestone Review
18:10:48 <CurtBellew> present +
18:10:58 <jongund> we can hear you
18:12:12 <carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/10
18:13:13 <CurtBellew> I got audio working for me just before that happened :)
18:13:24 <carmacleod> mck: when will we push this out? Was it supposed to be Friday?
18:13:34 <carmacleod> jamesn: It hasn't happened yet
18:13:50 <carmacleod> jamesn: if it doesn't happen until after TPAC, that's ok
18:14:00 <MarkMccarthy> regrets+ EvanYamanishi
18:14:53 <carmacleod> mck: currently have 7 things in that branch that are ready to go
18:16:43 <carmacleod> mck: jon pushed change to menu where it should use data attribute
18:16:56 <carmacleod> mck: car made changes to IDL button
18:17:07 <carmacleod> mck: so we are up to 9 done
18:17:30 <MarkMccarthy> I also seem to remember Sarah taking up <meter>
18:18:36 <carmacleod> jamesn: meter pattern - was Sarah going to update that?
18:19:02 <carmacleod> mck: meter may not make the third working draft
18:19:07 <carmacleod> jamesn: that's ok
18:19:18 <carmacleod> TOPIC: APG language for new ARIA features
18:20:07 <carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1150
18:20:48 <carmacleod> jamesn: this isn't about anything new introduced in aria
18:21:00 <Sarah_Higley> Sarah_Higley has joined #aria-apg
18:21:57 <MarkMccarthy> q+ I don't think it'd hurt
18:22:16 <carmacleod> mck: should we add info to apg about how slider/spinbutton doesn't work in VO?
18:22:58 <MarkMccarthy> I don't think it'd hurt to add some caveats where necessary, along with what jamesn is saying.
18:23:08 <carmacleod> jamesn: I recommend that people don't use slider/spinbutton roles because they don't work in all AT
18:23:41 <carmacleod> mck: sounds like there are certain patterns that we should put warnings on
18:23:54 <carmacleod> jamesn: I do want to get them fixed...
18:24:04 <MarkMccarthy> I think that, though we may not recommend certain things, folks looking for resrouces might not know that, and know that APG is a good source. So it may indeed be good, in the interim
18:27:12 <jamesn> q+
18:27:14 <carmacleod> mck: does someone want to take this on and figure out what type of warning to put on certain patterns and where we should put it
18:27:46 <MarkMccarthy> I could try to take a stab at a message over the next week
18:27:56 <MarkMccarthy> Probably basically noting what you just said Matt
18:28:40 <carmacleod> jamesn: need to get the 2nd phase of AOM done, which will solve this problem of missing API
18:29:02 <carmacleod> mck: patterns would have to be redone to listen for AOM events
18:29:47 <carmacleod> mck: but for now, perhaps we need to say which patterns have problems?
18:30:36 <jongund> bye
18:31:23 <MarkMccarthy> +1 to Sarah's comment on offering remediation after using some APG examples
18:31:54 <carmacleod> mck: bottom line is you have to test
18:32:55 <carmacleod> mck: if no takers right now, will add it to the milestone for release 1
18:33:20 <Sarah_Higley> feeling FOMO over here :D
18:33:47 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: I had opened an issue saying consider similar concepts. maybe it could go in the same area as that - suggesting other "things to consider"
18:34:02 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: something like "consider using this HTML thing instead because XYZ"
18:34:31 <MarkMccarthy> carmacleod: it'd be just text, probably link to HTML spec. just spitballing right now though
18:35:35 <carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/633
18:36:27 <carmacleod> mck: draft prs are always welcome
18:36:42 <Sarah_Higley> +1 to Mark & Zoe's +1s
18:37:21 <carmacleod> TOPIC: open examples in CodePen
18:38:09 <CurtBellew_> CurtBellew_ has joined #aria-apg
18:38:28 <jamesn> Codepen link looks awesome
18:38:33 <carmacleod> mck: example: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/issue1102-open-example-codepen/examples/slider/multithumb-slider.html
18:38:42 <MarkMccarthy> Codepen doesn't work in IE (for testing) unless it uses debug links
18:38:50 <carmacleod> mck: there's a button that opens the code in CodePen
18:39:06 <carmacleod> mck: do people like this idea?
18:39:08 <jamesn> Feature request to automatically run tidy on the HTML
18:39:34 <carmacleod> car: I like it!
18:39:39 <MarkMccarthy> +1 to style and placement
18:41:27 <carmacleod> jamesn: should it be a link or a button?
18:41:35 <carmacleod> mck: opens in new tab
18:42:06 <carmacleod> jamesn: maybe don't have heading - just button (or link)
18:43:08 <carmacleod> mck: please add feedback to https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1110
18:43:23 <carmacleod> TOPIC: TPAC Combobox Discussion Preparation
18:44:28 <carmacleod> mck: will send out to the list before TPAC
18:44:44 <carmacleod> mck: slide 3 explains evolution of combobox
18:45:37 <carmacleod> mck: essentially a textbox with a combobox inside of it
18:45:50 <carmacleod> ... for 1.0
18:46:26 <carmacleod> mck: for 1.1 combobox changed to a container with a textbox and sibling listbox
18:47:26 <carmacleod> mck: slide 4 the problem is that because listbox was owned by textbox, many AT couldn't see listbox
18:48:14 <carmacleod> mck: the only way to perceive the options in the listbox was to have screen reader in forms mode and it would read aria-activedescendants
18:48:41 <carmacleod> mck: in 1.1, combobox is now container, problem is it's not focusable
18:49:06 <carmacleod> mck: combobox role is on non-focusable container
18:49:32 <carmacleod> mck: because of big changes, screen readers did't figure out how to support it
18:49:49 <carmacleod> mck: there were naming issues, we discussed those in May
18:51:58 <carmacleod> mck: for 1.2, proposal is to go back to 1.0 structure, but listbox is controlled by textbox instead of owned by
18:52:40 <carmacleod> ... similar to menubutton that controls menu
18:53:38 <carmacleod> ... nicest part of this proposal is we wouldn't have to change any screen readers
18:54:26 <carmacleod> ... 1 line of html, 1 line of js, works awesome (better than 1.0 pattern, better than 1.1 pattern)
18:54:59 <jamesn> q+
18:55:26 <carmacleod> mck: tested in JAWS/NVDA with Chrome/FF, VO with Safari, Narrator with Edge
18:55:46 <carmacleod> q
18:56:11 <carmacleod> ack jamesn
18:56:28 <MarkMccarthy> Good point James
18:56:48 <jamesn> ack me
18:57:04 <carmacleod> jamesn: we need to have this conversation with MS before TPAC
19:01:43 <carmacleod> sarah: native windows combobox is a container - inspect.exe - has textbox and listbox children
19:02:14 <MarkMccarthy> s/inspect.exe/explorer.exe
19:04:08 <carmacleod> sarah: I will definitely talk to Melanie and the team
19:04:28 <carmacleod> mck: need to look also at select size=1
19:04:52 <carmacleod> ... this proposal is in some ways an attempt to emulate select size=1
19:05:19 <carmacleod> ... somehow UIA is representing select size=1 as a combobox (without a wrapper)
19:06:05 <carmacleod> sarah: it doesn't have a child edit
19:07:00 <carmacleod> mck: I will have a draft version ready today - will send to the aria list
19:07:21 <carmacleod> zakim, who is on the call?
19:07:21 <Zakim> Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn
19:08:05 <carmacleod> present+ curt_bellew
19:09:25 <carmacleod> present+ Sarah_Higley
19:09:40 <carmacleod> zakim, who is on the call?
19:09:40 <Zakim> Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley
19:10:07 <carmacleod> present+ bryan
19:10:18 <carmacleod> zakim, who is on the call?
19:10:18 <Zakim> Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley, bryan
19:10:27 <carmacleod> zakim, bye
19:10:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley, bryan
19:10:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:10:38 <carmacleod> rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-minutes.html carmacleod