IRC log of aria-apg on 2019-09-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:01:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:01:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-irc
18:01:49 [mck]
rrsagent, make log public
18:02:16 [ZoeBijl]
present+
18:02:22 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:02:27 [MarkMccarthy]
present+
18:02:28 [mck]
MEETING: September 10, 2019 Authoring Practices Task Force Telecon
18:02:36 [mck]
rrsagent, make log public
18:02:45 [mck]
CHAIR: Matt King
18:02:52 [mck]
present+ Matt-King
18:02:59 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
18:03:53 [CurtBellew]
CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
18:05:32 [carmacleod]
present+
18:06:44 [carmacleod]
scribe: carmacleod
18:07:06 [carmacleod]
agenda?
18:07:51 [MarkMccarthy]
Link to agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-10%2C-2019-Meeting
18:08:15 [jamesn]
present+
18:09:04 [carmacleod]
agenda?
18:09:13 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: Future meetings
18:09:16 [mck]
agenda link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-10%2C-2019-Meeting
18:10:10 [carmacleod]
TOPIC: Third Working Draft Milestone Review
18:10:48 [CurtBellew]
present +
18:10:58 [jongund]
we can hear you
18:12:12 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/10
18:13:13 [CurtBellew]
I got audio working for me just before that happened :)
18:13:24 [carmacleod]
mck: when will we push this out? Was it supposed to be Friday?
18:13:34 [carmacleod]
jamesn: It hasn't happened yet
18:13:50 [carmacleod]
jamesn: if it doesn't happen until after TPAC, that's ok
18:14:00 [MarkMccarthy]
regrets+ EvanYamanishi
18:14:53 [carmacleod]
mck: currently have 7 things in that branch that are ready to go
18:16:43 [carmacleod]
mck: jon pushed change to menu where it should use data attribute
18:16:56 [carmacleod]
mck: car made changes to IDL button
18:17:07 [carmacleod]
mck: so we are up to 9 done
18:17:30 [MarkMccarthy]
I also seem to remember Sarah taking up <meter>
18:18:36 [carmacleod]
jamesn: meter pattern - was Sarah going to update that?
18:19:02 [carmacleod]
mck: meter may not make the third working draft
18:19:07 [carmacleod]
jamesn: that's ok
18:19:18 [carmacleod]
TOPIC: APG language for new ARIA features
18:20:07 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1150
18:20:48 [carmacleod]
jamesn: this isn't about anything new introduced in aria
18:21:00 [Sarah_Higley]
Sarah_Higley has joined #aria-apg
18:21:57 [MarkMccarthy]
q+ I don't think it'd hurt
18:22:16 [carmacleod]
mck: should we add info to apg about how slider/spinbutton doesn't work in VO?
18:22:58 [MarkMccarthy]
I don't think it'd hurt to add some caveats where necessary, along with what jamesn is saying.
18:23:08 [carmacleod]
jamesn: I recommend that people don't use slider/spinbutton roles because they don't work in all AT
18:23:41 [carmacleod]
mck: sounds like there are certain patterns that we should put warnings on
18:23:54 [carmacleod]
jamesn: I do want to get them fixed...
18:24:04 [MarkMccarthy]
I think that, though we may not recommend certain things, folks looking for resrouces might not know that, and know that APG is a good source. So it may indeed be good, in the interim
18:27:12 [jamesn]
q+
18:27:14 [carmacleod]
mck: does someone want to take this on and figure out what type of warning to put on certain patterns and where we should put it
18:27:46 [MarkMccarthy]
I could try to take a stab at a message over the next week
18:27:56 [MarkMccarthy]
Probably basically noting what you just said Matt
18:28:40 [carmacleod]
jamesn: need to get the 2nd phase of AOM done, which will solve this problem of missing API
18:29:02 [carmacleod]
mck: patterns would have to be redone to listen for AOM events
18:29:47 [carmacleod]
mck: but for now, perhaps we need to say which patterns have problems?
18:30:36 [jongund]
bye
18:31:23 [MarkMccarthy]
+1 to Sarah's comment on offering remediation after using some APG examples
18:31:54 [carmacleod]
mck: bottom line is you have to test
18:32:55 [carmacleod]
mck: if no takers right now, will add it to the milestone for release 1
18:33:20 [Sarah_Higley]
feeling FOMO over here :D
18:33:47 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: I had opened an issue saying consider similar concepts. maybe it could go in the same area as that - suggesting other "things to consider"
18:34:02 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: something like "consider using this HTML thing instead because XYZ"
18:34:31 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: it'd be just text, probably link to HTML spec. just spitballing right now though
18:35:35 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/633
18:36:27 [carmacleod]
mck: draft prs are always welcome
18:36:42 [Sarah_Higley]
+1 to Mark & Zoe's +1s
18:37:21 [carmacleod]
TOPIC: open examples in CodePen
18:38:09 [CurtBellew_]
CurtBellew_ has joined #aria-apg
18:38:28 [jamesn]
Codepen link looks awesome
18:38:33 [carmacleod]
mck: example: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/issue1102-open-example-codepen/examples/slider/multithumb-slider.html
18:38:42 [MarkMccarthy]
Codepen doesn't work in IE (for testing) unless it uses debug links
18:38:50 [carmacleod]
mck: there's a button that opens the code in CodePen
18:39:06 [carmacleod]
mck: do people like this idea?
18:39:08 [jamesn]
Feature request to automatically run tidy on the HTML
18:39:34 [carmacleod]
car: I like it!
18:39:39 [MarkMccarthy]
+1 to style and placement
18:41:27 [carmacleod]
jamesn: should it be a link or a button?
18:41:35 [carmacleod]
mck: opens in new tab
18:42:06 [carmacleod]
jamesn: maybe don't have heading - just button (or link)
18:43:08 [carmacleod]
mck: please add feedback to https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1110
18:43:23 [carmacleod]
TOPIC: TPAC Combobox Discussion Preparation
18:44:28 [carmacleod]
mck: will send out to the list before TPAC
18:44:44 [carmacleod]
mck: slide 3 explains evolution of combobox
18:45:37 [carmacleod]
mck: essentially a textbox with a combobox inside of it
18:45:50 [carmacleod]
... for 1.0
18:46:26 [carmacleod]
mck: for 1.1 combobox changed to a container with a textbox and sibling listbox
18:47:26 [carmacleod]
mck: slide 4 the problem is that because listbox was owned by textbox, many AT couldn't see listbox
18:48:14 [carmacleod]
mck: the only way to perceive the options in the listbox was to have screen reader in forms mode and it would read aria-activedescendants
18:48:41 [carmacleod]
mck: in 1.1, combobox is now container, problem is it's not focusable
18:49:06 [carmacleod]
mck: combobox role is on non-focusable container
18:49:32 [carmacleod]
mck: because of big changes, screen readers did't figure out how to support it
18:49:49 [carmacleod]
mck: there were naming issues, we discussed those in May
18:51:58 [carmacleod]
mck: for 1.2, proposal is to go back to 1.0 structure, but listbox is controlled by textbox instead of owned by
18:52:40 [carmacleod]
... similar to menubutton that controls menu
18:53:38 [carmacleod]
... nicest part of this proposal is we wouldn't have to change any screen readers
18:54:26 [carmacleod]
... 1 line of html, 1 line of js, works awesome (better than 1.0 pattern, better than 1.1 pattern)
18:54:59 [jamesn]
q+
18:55:26 [carmacleod]
mck: tested in JAWS/NVDA with Chrome/FF, VO with Safari, Narrator with Edge
18:55:46 [carmacleod]
q
18:56:11 [carmacleod]
ack jamesn
18:56:28 [MarkMccarthy]
Good point James
18:56:48 [jamesn]
ack me
18:57:04 [carmacleod]
jamesn: we need to have this conversation with MS before TPAC
19:01:43 [carmacleod]
sarah: native windows combobox is a container - inspect.exe - has textbox and listbox children
19:02:14 [MarkMccarthy]
s/inspect.exe/explorer.exe
19:04:08 [carmacleod]
sarah: I will definitely talk to Melanie and the team
19:04:28 [carmacleod]
mck: need to look also at select size=1
19:04:52 [carmacleod]
... this proposal is in some ways an attempt to emulate select size=1
19:05:19 [carmacleod]
... somehow UIA is representing select size=1 as a combobox (without a wrapper)
19:06:05 [carmacleod]
sarah: it doesn't have a child edit
19:07:00 [carmacleod]
mck: I will have a draft version ready today - will send to the aria list
19:07:21 [carmacleod]
zakim, who is on the call?
19:07:21 [Zakim]
Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn
19:08:05 [carmacleod]
present+ curt_bellew
19:09:25 [carmacleod]
present+ Sarah_Higley
19:09:40 [carmacleod]
zakim, who is on the call?
19:09:40 [Zakim]
Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley
19:10:07 [carmacleod]
present+ bryan
19:10:18 [carmacleod]
zakim, who is on the call?
19:10:18 [Zakim]
Present: ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley, bryan
19:10:27 [carmacleod]
zakim, bye
19:10:27 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ZoeBijl, jongund, MarkMccarthy, Matt-King, carmacleod, jamesn, curt_bellew, Sarah_Higley, bryan
19:10:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:10:38 [carmacleod]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:10:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/10-aria-apg-minutes.html carmacleod