IRC log of pwg on 2019-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/09-pwg-irc
15:47:48 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
15:47:48 [ivan]
Meeting: Publishing Working Group Telco
15:47:48 [ivan]
Chair: garth
15:47:48 [ivan]
Date: 2019-09-09
15:47:48 [ivan]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Sep/0005.html
15:47:48 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2019-09-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publ-wg/2019Sep/0005.html
15:47:49 [ivan]
Regrets+ Luc
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15:58:10 [ivan]
present+
15:59:22 [NickRuffilo]
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15:59:29 [wendyreid]
present+
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16:01:13 [CharlesL]
present+
16:01:18 [dkaplan3]
present+
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16:01:49 [franco]
present+
16:01:52 [gpellegrino]
present+
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16:02:31 [Nellie]
present+
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present+
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16:03:08 [dauwhe]
present+
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16:03:36 [simon_collinson]
present+
16:03:42 [wendyreid]
zakim, pick a victim
16:03:42 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose simon_collinson
16:03:53 [JunGamo]
present+
16:03:54 [marisa]
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16:04:29 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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16:04:32 [ivan]
chair: wendy
16:04:36 [Rachel]
present+
16:04:44 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+
16:04:45 [wendyreid]
https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-08-19-pwg
16:04:53 [ivan]
Topic: Last week's minutes
16:04:54 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: First up, approval of minutes.
16:04:55 [ivan]
+1
16:05:06 [ivan]
scribe+ simon_collinson
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16:05:19 [duga]
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16:05:21 [George]
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16:05:24 [BenSchroeter]
present+
16:05:26 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: Today's meeting is about wrapping up loose ends before TPAC next week. Hope to see many of you there…
16:05:27 [ivan]
resolved: last week's minutes are accepted
16:05:33 [duga]
Garth and Brady joining shortly
16:05:34 [simon_collinson]
…if you haven't RSVPd yet, please do…
16:05:47 [ivan]
Topic: Horizontal reviews
16:05:59 [simon_collinson]
…Ivan, do you want to review internationalisation?
16:06:07 [Avneesh]
present+
16:06:17 [CharlesL]
q+
16:06:18 [duga]
present+
16:06:19 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: Nothing to say yet - I don't have an answer from the internationalisation group…
16:06:34 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
16:06:35 [George]
present+
16:06:38 [simon_collinson]
…we should consider it closed and add a note. We've made changes here and there and had a positive effect.
16:06:47 [garth]
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16:06:56 [garth]
Present+ Garth
16:07:02 [rkwright]
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16:07:12 [simon_collinson]
Charles: As part of APA's personalization work, I'm reviewing it all from that angle. We have a joint meeting during TPAC, so we can discuss any issues then.
16:07:31 [simon_collinson]
Brady: We are private and secure!
16:08:09 [simon_collinson]
…I've filled out the ping quest. The answers are the same for privacy and the audiobook manifest. I got a couple of comments from Benjamin, may not have the correct email for Deborah
16:08:18 [rkwright]
present+
16:08:27 [simon_collinson]
Deborah: Brady does have the right email address, it's on me to reply :)
16:08:42 [simon_collinson]
s/quest/questionnaire
16:09:03 [duga]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rkVNSAfQMiS72mBzeCa9dceFEh5VsqLdzxxz0Mzvtj8/edit?usp=sharing
16:09:07 [simon_collinson]
Brady: I'll post a link to the minutes. There's a Google Doc - anyone with the link can comment.
16:09:26 [simon_collinson]
Brady: Not sure what next steps are - do I give to someone, put it somewhere?
16:09:26 [ivan]
q+
16:09:30 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
16:09:34 [garth]
q?
16:09:41 [dkaplan3]
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16:09:52 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: If you look at the issue list of the repo, there are some issues open for internationalization…
16:10:25 [simon_collinson]
…we should make some sort of report and mark it up, then contact the relevant people…
16:10:34 [simon_collinson]
…is there anything that we have to change?
16:10:52 [dkaplan3]
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16:10:53 [simon_collinson]
Brady: I don't know if we have a privacy/security section in the manifest?
16:10:59 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: There is one in the editor's draft.
16:11:08 [simon_collinson]
Brady: We should put something other than 'coming soon' in there.
16:11:19 [davd_stroup]
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16:11:36 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: I'm already talking to the PING people - if they can spend some time with us next week, so I'll forward this to them.
16:11:47 [ivan]
-> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/#security-privacy Security and Privacy section in the editor's draft
16:11:47 [ivan]
q+
16:11:51 [garth]
q?
16:11:58 [garth]
ack ivan
16:12:32 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: A small flag - Matt has created a section for security and privacy… Wendy has already added something similar for audio (?)
16:12:55 [garth]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q8PUjzMY04peuYZdTkA6A0BBoFea_BSK4ygJlphkzh8/edit#heading=h.1ryfaao4cgcc
16:13:44 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Can we talk briefly about the TPAC agenda? Everyone has ability to edit but please comment…
16:13:46 [ivan]
topic: TPAC agenda
16:14:13 [simon_collinson]
…there is the meeting with the Amazon folks, encourage people to dial in for that…
16:14:34 [garth]
https://w3.org/TR/audiobooks
16:14:42 [garth]
https://w3.org/TR/pub-manifest
16:14:43 [Avneesh]
q+
16:14:46 [simon_collinson]
…in pre-TPAC mindset, it would be good if people can spend time with our two drafts (links posted above)…
16:15:10 [ivan]
q+
16:15:14 [bigbluehat]
present+
16:15:15 [simon_collinson]
…Matt has lost power in Nova Scotia due to the hurricane…
16:15:31 [garth]
q?
16:15:37 [garth]
ack Avneesh
16:16:11 [simon_collinson]
Avneesh: Agenda is quite full - should we discuss the Community Group and what it has planned?
16:16:41 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: Major question from EPUB3 CG to WG is what happens to EPUB 3 - and we can't answer that yet. It might come up in the business group meeting.
16:16:52 [garth]
ack ivan
16:16:56 [simon_collinson]
Garth: It might come up, but EPUB 3 is a long topic
16:17:18 [romain]
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16:17:25 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: What you put in as links are the published documents… I don't know whether we can republish the two documents officially (?)…
16:17:42 [romain]
present+
16:17:44 [simon_collinson]
…I don't know whether we need permission to do that…
16:18:05 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Good point. Do we need anything consensus-wise to say 'go ahead and publish' in order to update the documents?
16:18:15 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: This is a good idea - we need consensus
16:18:17 [garth]
Proposal publish both our Editors drafts
16:18:20 [CharlesL]
q+h
16:18:32 [garth]
+1
16:18:38 [garth]
q?
16:18:42 [Avneesh]
+1
16:18:43 [ivan]
Proposed: the WG agree to republish the manifest and the audiobook
16:18:43 [wendyreid]
+1
16:18:44 [ivan]
+
16:18:46 [ivan]
+1
16:18:54 [rkwright]
+1
16:18:58 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
16:19:08 [simon_collinson]
Charles: Should I be reviewing the latest draft or the one published on the 27th August?
16:19:21 [George]
+1
16:19:23 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Don't review the link above - review the link to come - the current editors' draft
16:19:34 [garth]
q?
16:19:37 [garth]
ack h
16:19:51 [ivan]
Editors' draft: -> Manifest https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/ and -> Audiobooks https://w3c.github.io/audiobooks/
16:20:00 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Let's turn it over to Wendy and then Ivan subbing for Matt, to talk about changes to editors' drafts
16:20:39 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: The changes to audiobooks draft are minor. I haven't done it yet, but will change privacy and security to match publication manifest. Added a section on usage of preview…
16:20:53 [simon_collinson]
…so creator can include preview of content in the manifest. Minor section sorting for readability…
16:21:17 [simon_collinson]
…I also added (this is in publication manifest) abridged attribute, ie content is abridged or unabridged…
16:21:17 [garth]
q?
16:21:29 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: There has been quite a lot of changes to manifest…
16:21:44 [simon_collinson]
…many discussions since just before last publication, lots of resolutions…
16:21:55 [simon_collinson]
…long-standing discussion about having a canonical manifest or not…
16:22:05 [simon_collinson]
…based on resolution, the term of 'canonical manifest' has disappeared…
16:22:21 [simon_collinson]
…what used to be the web id (?) is still there and takes care of presentation of the manifest…
16:22:32 [simon_collinson]
…the whole processing section has been changed to display…
16:23:18 [simon_collinson]
…then we had discussion about ??, as a result of that discussion we had discussion about the language in the manifest and the content…
16:23:43 [simon_collinson]
…this was previously (in EPUB days) done with dc, we have cleaned it up…
16:24:06 [simon_collinson]
…quite a lot of editorial changes as well…
16:24:37 [simon_collinson]
…there is a pull request put in yesterday from Marisa on how to do the alternate – I reviewed this and we had some minor changes based on that…
16:24:48 [simon_collinson]
…would welcome other people looking at that - it's not yet in the editors' draft…
16:24:57 [garth]
q?
16:25:07 [simon_collinson]
…if there's an agreement, it could be part of the editors' draft. That covers the major changes.
16:25:25 [garth]
q?
16:25:39 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues
16:25:40 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Is there anything else to discuss before open issues?
16:25:44 [simon_collinson]
All: silence
16:25:45 [ivan]
Topic: open issues
16:25:53 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Three open issues proposed to close…
16:26:01 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/40
16:26:12 [ivan]
Subtopic: issue trimming white space
16:26:30 [garth]
q?
16:26:32 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Issue 40 - trimming whitespace. Consensus is this is (for both names and values) that we don't want to introduce any new constraint. Trimming not required/done…
16:26:42 [ivan]
github-bot, bye
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16:26:44 [simon_collinson]
…unless there are objections, since that's been sitting a few days, we should go ahead and close it.
16:26:47 [garth]
q?
16:26:47 [dauwhe]
q+
16:26:54 [garth]
ack dauwhe
16:27:17 [simon_collinson]
Dave: For everyone's information, EPUB does aggressively trim whitespace on metadata values (only, not for keys since they don't exist)
16:27:46 [garth]
q?
16:27:50 [simon_collinson]
Garth: There's commentary on keys and values here - schema.org doesn't push us in this direction. Was Dave objecting to closing?
16:27:52 [simon_collinson]
Dave: No.
16:27:57 [ivan]
proposed: close issue 40 with no actions
16:28:00 [bigbluehat]
+1
16:28:00 [garth]
Propose close #40
16:28:01 [dkaplan3]
+1
16:28:06 [ivan]
+1
16:28:10 [garth]
+1
16:28:10 [CharlesL]
+1
16:28:14 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
16:28:21 [wendyreid]
+1
16:28:24 [ivan]
resolved: close #40 with no action
16:28:25 [duga]
+ 1
16:28:25 [mateus]
+1
16:28:36 [romain]
+1
16:28:36 [George]
+1
16:28:52 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/22
16:29:00 [ivan]
Subtopic: issue #22 TAG REview
16:29:08 [simon_collinson]
Garth: This one should be easy, since it's lacking content entirely - issue 22. This was a placeholder for TAG review…
16:29:08 [garth]
propose: close #22
16:29:14 [ivan]
+1
16:29:15 [garth]
+1
16:29:27 [dkaplan3]
+1
16:29:33 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
16:29:36 [George]
+1
16:29:39 [franco]
+1
16:29:40 [wendyreid]
+1
16:29:42 [CharlesL]
+1
16:29:46 [ivan]
q+
16:29:47 [garth]
q?
16:29:53 [garth]
ack ivan
16:30:01 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: For the record, there has been a TAG review separately - not sure why this issue was opened
16:30:15 [simon_collinson]
…worth mentioning that we are not ignoring TAG review, just that issue was opened and not followed up…
16:30:19 [ivan]
resolved: close #22
16:30:20 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/13
16:30:29 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Next is issue 13, about typing for linked resources…
16:30:29 [ivan]
Subtopic: typing for linked resources
16:30:46 [simon_collinson]
…that has been without comments for over six months…
16:31:00 [garth]
q?
16:31:09 [simon_collinson]
…Dave and Hadrien came towards not adding a typing requirement. Is that acceptable to you Ivan?
16:31:11 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: It is.
16:31:27 [garth]
propose: close #13 with no action (no typeing requirements)
16:31:41 [garth]
+1
16:31:47 [wendyreid]
+1
16:31:47 [ivan]
+1
16:31:52 [dkaplan3]
+1
16:31:54 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1
16:31:58 [George]
+1
16:32:07 [romain]
+1
16:32:11 [ivan]
resolved: close #13 with no action (no typeing requirements)
16:32:12 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues
16:32:33 [simon_collinson]
Garth: There are ten other issues. I'd like to request - are there ones that people on the call have opened and that they'd like to discuss?
16:32:36 [ivan]
q+
16:33:13 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Self-review, there's nothing to talk about. Inviting Marisa to talk through issue 33.
16:33:13 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/33
16:33:52 [simon_collinson]
Marisa: I submitted a pull request, Ivan reviewed it, a few other people should have a look - Wendy in particular as this affects audiobooks. I don't have anything earth-shattering to announce…
16:34:11 [simon_collinson]
Garth: We don't want to close the issue until the PR is merged.
16:34:21 [simon_collinson]
Marisa: Agreed.
16:34:22 [ivan]
-> https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/pull/56 corresponding PR
16:34:34 [garth]
q?
16:34:39 [garth]
ack ivan
16:35:05 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/51
16:35:28 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: So far, the reading progression has two possible values, ltr and rtl…
16:35:48 [simon_collinson]
…Laurent raised the possibility of whether we needed top to bottom or bottom to top…
16:36:08 [simon_collinson]
…I don't know if there's a reasonable example for bottom to top. I don't know if publications would use this, but we can add another value there if it makes sense.
16:36:09 [garth]
q?
16:36:10 [dauwhe]
q+
16:36:15 [garth]
ack dauwhe
16:36:46 [simon_collinson]
Dave: I'm not expressing an opinion about the issue, but I don't think we should make decisions here without drawing diagrams and talking about exactly what we're expecting from user agents.
16:36:56 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: I agree, we should discuss when Laurent is around.
16:37:06 [ivan]
q+
16:37:07 [simon_collinson]
Dave: I'm wary of doing interesting visual things without a whiteboard around.
16:37:36 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: Issue 9…
16:37:40 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/9
16:37:43 [garth]
q?
16:37:46 [garth]
ack ivan
16:38:20 [simon_collinson]
…with the change of having publication manifest and not web publication, absolutization is done in the (?) and I wonder if this is something we definitely have to have…
16:38:44 [simon_collinson]
…in the publication manifest now… should it be up to the profiles what happens?
16:38:57 [simon_collinson]
Garth: It sounds like you're proposing close with no action?
16:39:19 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: It might be better to wait for Laurent - he had issues with the spec. Let's put that on the agenda for TPAC when Laurent is around.
16:39:45 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Is Daniel on the call to talk about (?)
16:39:56 [simon_collinson]
…issue 12…?
16:39:59 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/9
16:40:06 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/12
16:40:53 [ivan]
q+
16:41:00 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: I need to read this over before I have any opinions… I think we can save this one for discussion. Maybe Ivan has more info?
16:41:23 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: Related to what I said before - at the moment we have the publication manifest, where the base comes from is up to the various profiles…
16:41:38 [simon_collinson]
…it was all about what happens if web content has an iframe, what is the base URL?
16:41:47 [simon_collinson]
…we haven't solved this issue, but it's not relevant any more for the manifest…
16:41:52 [garth]
q?
16:41:59 [wendyreid]
ack ivan
16:42:10 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Was that a 'leave to TPAC' or 'close now'?
16:42:18 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: Leave to TPAC…
16:42:43 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16
16:42:56 [simon_collinson]
Garth: We'll have Laurent with us at TPAC, so that makes sense. One other wasn't postponed, and hasn't been addressed for some time - issue 16 - to do with version in the manifest.
16:43:03 [simon_collinson]
…is this obviated or are we still live?
16:43:30 [simon_collinson]
…we didn't get to a satisfying conclusion…
16:43:54 [garth]
q?
16:44:10 [simon_collinson]
All: silence
16:44:31 [CharlesL]
q+
16:44:34 [simon_collinson]
Wendy: I do love the aspirational nature of the question
16:44:40 [wendyreid]
ack CharlesL
16:45:10 [simon_collinson]
Charles: Looking at this, because it also goes in line with the accessibility specification, with the conforms-to suggestion, I like that you can specify the version number and have all the information right there…
16:45:27 [simon_collinson]
…we have that already as a basis for conformance to the a11y spec…
16:45:58 [simon_collinson]
…but we're trying to avoid compatibility issues, if we have a version in the future which requires special handling, if we don't put it in there now we could be in trouble…
16:46:06 [garth]
q?
16:46:10 [ivan]
q=
16:46:12 [dauwhe]
q+
16:46:12 [ivan]
Q+
16:46:22 [wendyreid]
ack dauwhe
16:46:22 [garth]
ack dauwhe
16:46:27 [simon_collinson]
Dave: I hope we can avoid having version numbers on this.
16:46:31 [wendyreid]
+1
16:46:39 [simon_collinson]
…it feels like a nightmare of incompatibility and writing special paths and code etc.…
16:46:47 [simon_collinson]
…we've managed to avoid it in HTML and CSS, let's really try not to go there…
16:46:56 [garth]
q?
16:47:01 [garth]
ack ivan
16:47:07 [simon_collinson]
Garth: One can also argue that even if we do choose to go there, we don't have to go there at the first try…
16:47:50 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: I agree - if we look back at the comments; if we want to express conformance with a version of the specification, (??), there is a comment I made in Feb which said you can put this kind of information in the manifest…
16:47:56 [simon_collinson]
…there's a way of using dc terms to do that…
16:48:13 [simon_collinson]
…if this information is necessary in the document, we can do that with the manifest…
16:48:15 [garth]
Propose: close #16 without action (not adding version numbering)
16:48:23 [wendyreid]
+1
16:48:24 [ivan]
+1
16:48:24 [dauwhe]
+1
16:48:25 [garth]
+1
16:48:26 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Between Dave, Wendy, and Ben, I'm proposing we close without action
16:48:28 [Nellie]
+1
16:48:30 [geoffjukes]
+1
16:48:32 [CharlesL]
+1
16:48:33 [bigbluehat]
+1
16:48:36 [dkaplan3]
+1
16:48:36 [ivan]
q+
16:48:38 [simon_collinson]
+1
16:48:45 [garth]
q?
16:48:58 [garth]
ack ivan
16:49:01 [ivan]
Resolved: close #16 without action (not adding version numbering)
16:49:32 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: I agree with this, maybe we can ask Matt to put in an example of how this would be provided as an information - if someone were to do that, how they would go about it
16:49:45 [simon_collinson]
Garth: This is with dc terms 'conforms to'?
16:49:47 [ivan]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464087617 or https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464098251
16:49:54 [garth]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues/16#issuecomment-464098251
16:50:20 [simon_collinson]
Ivan: Yes, conformsTo.
16:50:30 [ivan]
acton: mattg to add an informational text on using dcterms
16:50:33 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Action item for Matt, review comment ending in 251
16:51:14 [ivan]
https://github.com/w3c/pub-manifest/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+-label%3A%22status%3A+postponed%22+
16:51:15 [garth]
q?
16:51:17 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Is there any other issue to review on today's call? The metadata one is postponed
16:51:33 [garth]
q?
16:52:11 [garth]
q?
16:52:22 [simon_collinson]
Garth: Is there any other business?
16:52:39 [garth]
q?
16:52:39 [simon_collinson]
…the homework remains, of reviewing the editors' drafts, and if they get published soon you can review the non-draft version…
16:52:58 [simon_collinson]
…hopefully a good time and accomplishment-filled time will be had by all at Fukuoka!
16:53:01 [dkaplan3]
dkaplan3 has left #pwg
16:53:07 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:53:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/09-pwg-minutes.html ivan
16:53:07 [ivan]
zakim, bye
16:53:07 [ivan]
rrsagent, bye
16:53:07 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:53:07 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ivan, wendyreid, CharlesL, dkaplan, franco, gpellegrino, Nellie, mateus, dauwhe, simon_collinson, JunGamo, Rachel, Bill_Kasdorf,
16:53:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pwg