IRC log of auto on 2019-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/09-auto-irc
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16:14:32 [Zakim]
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16:14:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference
16:14:34 [trackbot]
Date: 09 September 2019
16:15:28 [ted]
Meeting: Auto WG F2F
16:15:52 [ted]
Topic: Intros
16:16:16 [ted]
Present+ Magnus, Adnan, Joakim, Harjot, Glenn, Ulf, Peter, Christian_Umbach-Xapix, Ted
16:22:24 [ted]
scribenick: ted
16:22:31 [ted]
Chair: Peter, Adnan
16:22:36 [ted]
Scribe: Ted
16:22:46 [ted]
Topic: Backgrounds
16:23:11 [ted]
Christian: started with interest from Daimler to share data with customers and their communication interfaces
16:24:38 [ted]
… worked with [redacted] on APIs. we have been part of a European initiative on data streams from a SmartCities' perspective
16:25:04 [ted]
… worked with a number of other OEMs and Tier1s and a recurring theme is everyone is on slightly different technologies
16:25:19 [ted]
… some are REST, some streams, some Graph...
16:26:11 [ted]
… we focus on integration and normalization pain point
16:26:32 [ted]
… we have proposed some research work to the German government about building open source adapters to different vehicle APIs
16:27:43 [ted]
… also around data governance for off-vehicle use, from a GDPR perspective but also CA, NV
16:28:01 [ted]
… we were a founding member of mobi blockchain and still scratching the service
16:28:41 [ted]
Joakim: is it related to gitbot? you are combining open source data
16:28:51 [ted]
Christian: it is a data orchestration layer
16:29:56 [ted]
-> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/tg-meetup W3C Auto overview slides
16:30:11 [ted]
Glenn: we do quite a few intergrations at Geotab
16:30:26 [ted]
Christian: we have been in touch with some of your European colleagues
16:30:36 [ted]
Magnus: your platform on or off the vehicle?
16:30:45 [ted]
Christian: off
16:31:01 [ted]
Magnus: sounds like a brokered solution, to normalize from multiple OEMs?
16:31:14 [ted]
Christian: internal broker, we work with Otonomo for instance
16:31:35 [ted]
… we do not hold data on our end. the integration components can exist elsewhere
16:32:01 [ted]
Glenn: you mentioned SmartCity interest, you doing any integration there yet?
16:32:38 [ted]
Christian: FourSq, Yelp apis, entertainment services and fuel provider apis
16:33:01 [ted]
Joakim: you mentioned an EU project?
16:33:04 [ted]
Christian: fiware
16:33:29 [ted]
… #1 pain point they are trying to address is the cost of each city solving their own solution, desire to have a standard
16:33:56 [ted]
… it is a rather young initiative 4-5 years, start of adoption
16:48:56 [ted]
Ted summarizes activity, liaisons etc@@
16:57:51 [ted]
Christian: do you see AutoSAR focus being extended to cloud?
16:57:57 [ted]
Ted: not sure@@@
17:00:11 [ted]
Joakim: can you describe your GraphQL uses?
17:02:26 [ted]
Christian: somewhat, it does a great job to expose complex expansive data stores
17:03:02 [ted]
Joakim: someone tried an indexing experiment recently Neo4j
17:03:29 [ted]
Adnan: it can be heavy on the client side
17:04:32 [ted]
Ted: @@computing resources in-vehicle, Graph BG@@@
17:04:47 [ted]
… @@workshop and other datasets
17:09:04 [ted]
Christian: if you look across the different OEMs some are close to realtime data streaming
17:15:18 [ted]
[anonymization]
17:15:39 [ted]
Glenn: maybe Harjot will elaborate about how we anonymize
17:16:04 [ted]
Harjot: we make certain data sets available after it is aggregated and anonymized such as weather and pothole detection
17:16:20 [ted]
… we will take 3 or more fleets worth of vehicle to feed into that
17:16:39 [ted]
Christian: what is a large enough a fleet to provide your anonymization?
17:16:49 [ted]
Glenn: we are socializing that at present
17:19:20 [ted]
[more discussion on GPPR/CCPA]
17:19:34 [ted]
Harjot: we have blackout periods as well, when employees are off the clock
17:24:24 [ted]
[more on nuances of privacy and hinderance to making use of this data]
17:24:35 [ted]
Glenn: one argument is the greater good, increasing road safety
17:35:53 [ted]
Joakim: @@regulators, public interest
17:36:08 [ted]
Magnus: there is some pending EU legislation along those lines
17:36:29 [ted]
Peter: I know of an OEM who was sued by government for not providing that information
17:37:04 [ted]
Christian: cities are requiring data for example in providing permits to the shared scooter providers
17:45:31 [magnus]
ecall legislation is already in effect since late 2018
17:45:49 [magnus]
in eu...
17:46:53 [ted]
[/me misheard, thanks for correction. not use to an effective govt...]
17:47:10 [ted]
Topic: Agenda review
17:47:24 [ted]
Glenn: I want to see handling legacy vehicles as well
17:58:14 [ted]
https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Auto-f2f-sept-2019
18:28:14 [Zakim]
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18:31:17 [ted]
Topic: Liaisons update and strategy
18:31:42 [ted]
ISO TC 22 - Extended Vehicle / Neutral Server - liaison request voted on and accepted
18:32:27 [ted]
ISO TC 204 - Intelligent Transportation Systems - liaison request made, met with their secretariat, will attend their plenary/f2f in Singapore next month where they will vote. also workshop attendees
18:32:58 [ted]
AutoSAR - discusssed with GENIVI who is on their advisory board, no update
18:44:53 [ted]
TC22 - Caruso, Otonomo... NVDA
18:45:35 [ted]
s/NVDA/Nevada/
18:46:33 [Harjot]
Nevada link: https://www.vda.de/en/topics/innovation-and-technology/data-security/what-is.html
18:51:05 [ted]
@@r2r obd2 silos or miscommunication agree all on same model makes sense
18:51:18 [ted]
@@strategy - open group call on how to position and pitch this
18:51:38 [ted]
@@ted to get clear understanding of engagement rules from colleagues and iso. i should be able to represent this group's position
18:51:59 [ted]
@@flaw_silo_sampling
18:57:45 [ted]
@@politics of tc 22 && 204
18:57:56 [ted]
ts 21185 - secure vehicle interface
18:57:57 [Harjot]
Ted: willing to be liason for two sides to this issue. The auto distro could help flush out opinions/thoughts regarding topic.
19:04:31 [ted]
@@SAE Mark Zachos DGtech, unsure which groups i'll check notes of call with him
19:05:03 [ted]
Glenn: J3138 not to interfere with vehicle systems while in use, probably a good starting point
19:06:06 [ted]
… J3005 telematics and J3005-2 security for telematics
19:06:26 [Harjot]
J3138 non-instrusive & instrusive commands defns: https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3138_201806/
19:08:16 [ted]
… Lisa Boran Ford is a good person to talk with
19:08:18 [js]
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19:08:52 [ted]
Ted: Tom Forrest, Mark Zachos and Ira Mcdonald too, figure out which activities would make sense to try to align
19:09:44 [js]
There is a record of the liaison at: https://www.iso.org/organization/10143.html
19:11:29 [ted]
Ted: SAE more a North America and parts of Asia thing, what is the equiv in EU, VDA?
19:11:51 [ted]
Adnan: yeah probably, I can look into it more
19:13:58 [ted]
Christian: there is also Mobi blockchain with Renault, VW, BMW...
19:14:50 [ted]
… Chris Balenger former Toyota is heading that
19:22:36 [ted]
Ted: need to get more involved with VDA as well [particulars on individuals to reach out to]
19:22:50 [ted]
Adnan: also Sensoris coordination
19:23:45 [ted]
… we've been meeting with them in Munich, agree to some mapping
19:24:03 [ted]
Ted: we agreed tentatively to same in 2018
19:24:10 [ted]
Glenn: VDA specs are more prescriptive from my experience
19:31:17 [ted]
Ted: apart from GENIVI, what is a good way into AutoSAR?
19:31:31 [ted]
Adnan: not sure, I can ask around
19:33:08 [ted]
Glenn: ACEA is more involved in TC22 than Nevada is my impression
19:35:12 [ted]
Topic: Industry Trends
19:35:25 [ted]
@@news on GM
19:41:34 [ted]
@@bg
19:42:04 [ted]
Peter: essentially the same for us in 2021
19:42:52 [ted]
Ulf: Volvo like the other OEMs started building out their own IVI. there were some working on porting Android to our hardware
19:43:43 [ted]
… it was much better from far fewer engineers, hence the shift in my opinion
19:43:53 [ted]
Peter: yeah but a much longer story
19:44:26 [ted]
Adnan: why not just take Android open source and build on top?
19:44:32 [ted]
Ulf: not sure
19:46:19 [ted]
Peter: GENIVI was moving too slowly
19:46:22 [ted]
Ted: personally I liked the banded approach of AGL/GENIVI for long run
19:46:40 [ted]
… GENIVI model catered to corporate mentality, AGL more open source mindset
19:47:50 [ted]
… see OEMs falling for the long game of the tech giants...
19:49:20 [ted]
Joakim: there is no way some of the OEM can come up with the AI capabilities
19:57:32 [ted]
@@what does this mean for us? daniel, paul, peter, genivi on android relevance
19:58:20 [ted]
Ted: TSU@@
19:58:30 [ted]
Peter: their vehicle api isn't sufficient and don't see it advancing quick enough
19:59:00 [ted]
Ulf: I think what we are doing is a compliment to Android which I think has a strong future going forward
19:59:30 [ted]
… there are many external parties interested in this data that don't want to do so in Android, I see two pipes
19:59:52 [ted]
Adnan: you will need two interfaces, on and off-board
20:00:02 [ted]
Ulf: yes but I see two on-board pipes
20:01:42 [ted]
Ted: GENIVI has an Android initiative, figuring out the gaps and what is needed. I attended their workshop at GENIVI AMM in May in Munich but haven't been attending the calls, should see if we can get a summary from Gunnar
20:02:38 [ted]
Joakim: we should have clear use cases for which make sense
20:02:50 [ted]
Peter: we have been having the same circular discussion
21:57:05 [ted]
Topic: ViWi data
21:57:13 [ted]
Adnan's diagrams
21:58:16 [ted]
Adnan previews his and Daniel's assessment of ViWi data representation vs VSS
21:58:55 [ted]
Adnan: if we can extend ViWi it could be quite good
21:59:23 [ted]
Ulf: I think they need backwards compatibility
22:00:26 [ted]
Adnan: we could provide mapping for their current depth structure
22:18:56 [ted]
ViWi without depth limitation to better support tree models, backwards support could be ViWi service providing previous uris in parallel
22:21:12 [ted]
Peter: I think given move towards Android it would be difficult to convince Volvo to go towards ViWi
22:21:59 [ted]
Ulf: Volvo has shown they can use VISS and Android
22:23:51 [ted]
Ted: I wonder if some would only want to support subscriptions and sockets. Volvo isn't exposing VISS to Android though, right?
22:24:29 [ted]
Ulf: ViWi is a piece in AGL's IVI stack
22:24:51 [ted]
Ted: AGL says they do open source code, not standards. maybe overstating...
22:26:02 [ted]
Peter: their design was to support broader range of cars
22:27:54 [ted]
Peter: no wrt VISS to Android
22:28:00 [ted]
… but possible
22:28:40 [ted]
Adnan: I know a guy going over to GM from Google
22:28:54 [ted]
Ted: Peter, can you introduce us?
22:29:13 [ted]
Peter: yeah but not sure how that would go yet
22:29:57 [ted]
… depends on who
22:30:14 [ted]
… they have competing teams internally
22:32:47 [ted]
… they only have a small number of signals at present
22:32:48 [ted]
https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/properties.html
22:33:14 [ted]
Adnan: you would have to extend that to be useful
22:38:20 [ted]
[back to VSS in ViWi]
22:39:01 [ted]
Ulf: rbranch could help represent ViWi data in VSS
22:39:17 [ted]
Ted: that might help their forward migration