IRC log of auto on 2019-09-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference
- 16:14:34 [trackbot]
- Date: 09 September 2019
- 16:15:28 [ted]
- Meeting: Auto WG F2F
- 16:15:52 [ted]
- Topic: Intros
- 16:16:16 [ted]
- Present+ Magnus, Adnan, Joakim, Harjot, Glenn, Ulf, Peter, Christian_Umbach-Xapix, Ted
- 16:22:24 [ted]
- scribenick: ted
- 16:22:31 [ted]
- Chair: Peter, Adnan
- 16:22:36 [ted]
- Scribe: Ted
- 16:22:46 [ted]
- Topic: Backgrounds
- 16:23:11 [ted]
- Christian: started with interest from Daimler to share data with customers and their communication interfaces
- 16:24:38 [ted]
- … worked with [redacted] on APIs. we have been part of a European initiative on data streams from a SmartCities' perspective
- 16:25:04 [ted]
- … worked with a number of other OEMs and Tier1s and a recurring theme is everyone is on slightly different technologies
- 16:25:19 [ted]
- … some are REST, some streams, some Graph...
- 16:26:11 [ted]
- … we focus on integration and normalization pain point
- 16:26:32 [ted]
- … we have proposed some research work to the German government about building open source adapters to different vehicle APIs
- 16:27:43 [ted]
- … also around data governance for off-vehicle use, from a GDPR perspective but also CA, NV
- 16:28:01 [ted]
- … we were a founding member of mobi blockchain and still scratching the service
- 16:28:41 [ted]
- Joakim: is it related to gitbot? you are combining open source data
- 16:28:51 [ted]
- Christian: it is a data orchestration layer
- 16:29:56 [ted]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/tg-meetup W3C Auto overview slides
- 16:30:11 [ted]
- Glenn: we do quite a few intergrations at Geotab
- 16:30:26 [ted]
- Christian: we have been in touch with some of your European colleagues
- 16:30:36 [ted]
- Magnus: your platform on or off the vehicle?
- 16:30:45 [ted]
- Christian: off
- 16:31:01 [ted]
- Magnus: sounds like a brokered solution, to normalize from multiple OEMs?
- 16:31:14 [ted]
- Christian: internal broker, we work with Otonomo for instance
- 16:31:35 [ted]
- … we do not hold data on our end. the integration components can exist elsewhere
- 16:32:01 [ted]
- Glenn: you mentioned SmartCity interest, you doing any integration there yet?
- 16:32:38 [ted]
- Christian: FourSq, Yelp apis, entertainment services and fuel provider apis
- 16:33:01 [ted]
- Joakim: you mentioned an EU project?
- 16:33:04 [ted]
- Christian: fiware
- 16:33:29 [ted]
- … #1 pain point they are trying to address is the cost of each city solving their own solution, desire to have a standard
- 16:33:56 [ted]
- … it is a rather young initiative 4-5 years, start of adoption
- 16:48:56 [ted]
- Ted summarizes activity, liaisons etc@@
- 16:57:51 [ted]
- Christian: do you see AutoSAR focus being extended to cloud?
- 16:57:57 [ted]
- Ted: not sure@@@
- 17:00:11 [ted]
- Joakim: can you describe your GraphQL uses?
- 17:02:26 [ted]
- Christian: somewhat, it does a great job to expose complex expansive data stores
- 17:03:02 [ted]
- Joakim: someone tried an indexing experiment recently Neo4j
- 17:03:29 [ted]
- Adnan: it can be heavy on the client side
- 17:04:32 [ted]
- Ted: @@computing resources in-vehicle, Graph BG@@@
- 17:04:47 [ted]
- … @@workshop and other datasets
- 17:09:04 [ted]
- Christian: if you look across the different OEMs some are close to realtime data streaming
- 17:15:18 [ted]
- [anonymization]
- 17:15:39 [ted]
- Glenn: maybe Harjot will elaborate about how we anonymize
- 17:16:04 [ted]
- Harjot: we make certain data sets available after it is aggregated and anonymized such as weather and pothole detection
- 17:16:20 [ted]
- … we will take 3 or more fleets worth of vehicle to feed into that
- 17:16:39 [ted]
- Christian: what is a large enough a fleet to provide your anonymization?
- 17:16:49 [ted]
- Glenn: we are socializing that at present
- 17:19:20 [ted]
- [more discussion on GPPR/CCPA]
- 17:19:34 [ted]
- Harjot: we have blackout periods as well, when employees are off the clock
- 17:24:24 [ted]
- [more on nuances of privacy and hinderance to making use of this data]
- 17:24:35 [ted]
- Glenn: one argument is the greater good, increasing road safety
- 17:35:53 [ted]
- Joakim: @@regulators, public interest
- 17:36:08 [ted]
- Magnus: there is some pending EU legislation along those lines
- 17:36:29 [ted]
- Peter: I know of an OEM who was sued by government for not providing that information
- 17:37:04 [ted]
- Christian: cities are requiring data for example in providing permits to the shared scooter providers
- 17:45:31 [magnus]
- ecall legislation is already in effect since late 2018
- 17:45:49 [magnus]
- in eu...
- 17:46:53 [ted]
- [/me misheard, thanks for correction. not use to an effective govt...]
- 17:47:10 [ted]
- Topic: Agenda review
- 17:47:24 [ted]
- Glenn: I want to see handling legacy vehicles as well
- 17:58:14 [ted]
- https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Auto-f2f-sept-2019
- 18:28:14 [Zakim]
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- 18:31:17 [ted]
- Topic: Liaisons update and strategy
- 18:31:42 [ted]
- ISO TC 22 - Extended Vehicle / Neutral Server - liaison request voted on and accepted
- 18:32:27 [ted]
- ISO TC 204 - Intelligent Transportation Systems - liaison request made, met with their secretariat, will attend their plenary/f2f in Singapore next month where they will vote. also workshop attendees
- 18:32:58 [ted]
- AutoSAR - discusssed with GENIVI who is on their advisory board, no update
- 18:44:53 [ted]
- TC22 - Caruso, Otonomo... NVDA
- 18:45:35 [ted]
- s/NVDA/Nevada/
- 18:46:33 [Harjot]
- Nevada link: https://www.vda.de/en/topics/innovation-and-technology/data-security/what-is.html
- 18:51:05 [ted]
- @@r2r obd2 silos or miscommunication agree all on same model makes sense
- 18:51:18 [ted]
- @@strategy - open group call on how to position and pitch this
- 18:51:38 [ted]
- @@ted to get clear understanding of engagement rules from colleagues and iso. i should be able to represent this group's position
- 18:51:59 [ted]
- @@flaw_silo_sampling
- 18:57:45 [ted]
- @@politics of tc 22 && 204
- 18:57:56 [ted]
- ts 21185 - secure vehicle interface
- 18:57:57 [Harjot]
- Ted: willing to be liason for two sides to this issue. The auto distro could help flush out opinions/thoughts regarding topic.
- 19:04:31 [ted]
- @@SAE Mark Zachos DGtech, unsure which groups i'll check notes of call with him
- 19:05:03 [ted]
- Glenn: J3138 not to interfere with vehicle systems while in use, probably a good starting point
- 19:06:06 [ted]
- … J3005 telematics and J3005-2 security for telematics
- 19:06:26 [Harjot]
- J3138 non-instrusive & instrusive commands defns: https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3138_201806/
- 19:08:16 [ted]
- … Lisa Boran Ford is a good person to talk with
- 19:08:18 [js]
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- 19:08:52 [ted]
- Ted: Tom Forrest, Mark Zachos and Ira Mcdonald too, figure out which activities would make sense to try to align
- 19:09:44 [js]
- There is a record of the liaison at: https://www.iso.org/organization/10143.html
- 19:11:29 [ted]
- Ted: SAE more a North America and parts of Asia thing, what is the equiv in EU, VDA?
- 19:11:51 [ted]
- Adnan: yeah probably, I can look into it more
- 19:13:58 [ted]
- Christian: there is also Mobi blockchain with Renault, VW, BMW...
- 19:14:50 [ted]
- … Chris Balenger former Toyota is heading that
- 19:22:36 [ted]
- Ted: need to get more involved with VDA as well [particulars on individuals to reach out to]
- 19:22:50 [ted]
- Adnan: also Sensoris coordination
- 19:23:45 [ted]
- … we've been meeting with them in Munich, agree to some mapping
- 19:24:03 [ted]
- Ted: we agreed tentatively to same in 2018
- 19:24:10 [ted]
- Glenn: VDA specs are more prescriptive from my experience
- 19:31:17 [ted]
- Ted: apart from GENIVI, what is a good way into AutoSAR?
- 19:31:31 [ted]
- Adnan: not sure, I can ask around
- 19:33:08 [ted]
- Glenn: ACEA is more involved in TC22 than Nevada is my impression
- 19:35:12 [ted]
- Topic: Industry Trends
- 19:35:25 [ted]
- @@news on GM
- 19:41:34 [ted]
- @@bg
- 19:42:04 [ted]
- Peter: essentially the same for us in 2021
- 19:42:52 [ted]
- Ulf: Volvo like the other OEMs started building out their own IVI. there were some working on porting Android to our hardware
- 19:43:43 [ted]
- … it was much better from far fewer engineers, hence the shift in my opinion
- 19:43:53 [ted]
- Peter: yeah but a much longer story
- 19:44:26 [ted]
- Adnan: why not just take Android open source and build on top?
- 19:44:32 [ted]
- Ulf: not sure
- 19:46:19 [ted]
- Peter: GENIVI was moving too slowly
- 19:46:22 [ted]
- Ted: personally I liked the banded approach of AGL/GENIVI for long run
- 19:46:40 [ted]
- … GENIVI model catered to corporate mentality, AGL more open source mindset
- 19:47:50 [ted]
- … see OEMs falling for the long game of the tech giants...
- 19:49:20 [ted]
- Joakim: there is no way some of the OEM can come up with the AI capabilities
- 19:57:32 [ted]
- @@what does this mean for us? daniel, paul, peter, genivi on android relevance
- 19:58:20 [ted]
- Ted: TSU@@
- 19:58:30 [ted]
- Peter: their vehicle api isn't sufficient and don't see it advancing quick enough
- 19:59:00 [ted]
- Ulf: I think what we are doing is a compliment to Android which I think has a strong future going forward
- 19:59:30 [ted]
- … there are many external parties interested in this data that don't want to do so in Android, I see two pipes
- 19:59:52 [ted]
- Adnan: you will need two interfaces, on and off-board
- 20:00:02 [ted]
- Ulf: yes but I see two on-board pipes
- 20:01:42 [ted]
- Ted: GENIVI has an Android initiative, figuring out the gaps and what is needed. I attended their workshop at GENIVI AMM in May in Munich but haven't been attending the calls, should see if we can get a summary from Gunnar
- 20:02:38 [ted]
- Joakim: we should have clear use cases for which make sense
- 20:02:50 [ted]
- Peter: we have been having the same circular discussion
- 21:57:05 [ted]
- Topic: ViWi data
- 21:57:13 [ted]
- Adnan's diagrams
- 21:58:16 [ted]
- Adnan previews his and Daniel's assessment of ViWi data representation vs VSS
- 21:58:55 [ted]
- Adnan: if we can extend ViWi it could be quite good
- 21:59:23 [ted]
- Ulf: I think they need backwards compatibility
- 22:00:26 [ted]
- Adnan: we could provide mapping for their current depth structure
- 22:18:56 [ted]
- ViWi without depth limitation to better support tree models, backwards support could be ViWi service providing previous uris in parallel
- 22:21:12 [ted]
- Peter: I think given move towards Android it would be difficult to convince Volvo to go towards ViWi
- 22:21:59 [ted]
- Ulf: Volvo has shown they can use VISS and Android
- 22:23:51 [ted]
- Ted: I wonder if some would only want to support subscriptions and sockets. Volvo isn't exposing VISS to Android though, right?
- 22:24:29 [ted]
- Ulf: ViWi is a piece in AGL's IVI stack
- 22:24:51 [ted]
- Ted: AGL says they do open source code, not standards. maybe overstating...
- 22:26:02 [ted]
- Peter: their design was to support broader range of cars
- 22:27:54 [ted]
- Peter: no wrt VISS to Android
- 22:28:00 [ted]
- … but possible
- 22:28:40 [ted]
- Adnan: I know a guy going over to GM from Google
- 22:28:54 [ted]
- Ted: Peter, can you introduce us?
- 22:29:13 [ted]
- Peter: yeah but not sure how that would go yet
- 22:29:57 [ted]
- … depends on who
- 22:30:14 [ted]
- … they have competing teams internally
- 22:32:47 [ted]
- … they only have a small number of signals at present
- 22:32:48 [ted]
- https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/properties.html
- 22:33:14 [ted]
- Adnan: you would have to extend that to be useful
- 22:38:20 [ted]
- [back to VSS in ViWi]
- 22:39:01 [ted]
- Ulf: rbranch could help represent ViWi data in VSS
- 22:39:17 [ted]
- Ted: that might help their forward migration