16:14:30 RRSAgent has joined #auto 16:14:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/09-auto-irc 16:14:32 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:14:32 Zakim has joined #auto 16:14:34 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 16:14:34 Date: 09 September 2019 16:15:28 Meeting: Auto WG F2F 16:15:52 Topic: Intros 16:16:16 Present+ Magnus, Adnan, Joakim, Harjot, Glenn, Ulf, Peter, Christian_Umbach-Xapix, Ted 16:22:24 scribenick: ted 16:22:31 Chair: Peter, Adnan 16:22:36 Scribe: Ted 16:22:46 Topic: Backgrounds 16:23:11 Christian: started with interest from Daimler to share data with customers and their communication interfaces 16:24:38 … worked with [redacted] on APIs. we have been part of a European initiative on data streams from a SmartCities' perspective 16:25:04 … worked with a number of other OEMs and Tier1s and a recurring theme is everyone is on slightly different technologies 16:25:19 … some are REST, some streams, some Graph... 16:26:11 … we focus on integration and normalization pain point 16:26:32 … we have proposed some research work to the German government about building open source adapters to different vehicle APIs 16:27:43 … also around data governance for off-vehicle use, from a GDPR perspective but also CA, NV 16:28:01 … we were a founding member of mobi blockchain and still scratching the service 16:28:41 Joakim: is it related to gitbot? you are combining open source data 16:28:51 Christian: it is a data orchestration layer 16:29:56 -> https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/tg-meetup W3C Auto overview slides 16:30:11 Glenn: we do quite a few intergrations at Geotab 16:30:26 Christian: we have been in touch with some of your European colleagues 16:30:36 Magnus: your platform on or off the vehicle? 16:30:45 Christian: off 16:31:01 Magnus: sounds like a brokered solution, to normalize from multiple OEMs? 16:31:14 Christian: internal broker, we work with Otonomo for instance 16:31:35 … we do not hold data on our end. the integration components can exist elsewhere 16:32:01 Glenn: you mentioned SmartCity interest, you doing any integration there yet? 16:32:38 Christian: FourSq, Yelp apis, entertainment services and fuel provider apis 16:33:01 Joakim: you mentioned an EU project? 16:33:04 Christian: fiware 16:33:29 … #1 pain point they are trying to address is the cost of each city solving their own solution, desire to have a standard 16:33:56 … it is a rather young initiative 4-5 years, start of adoption 16:48:56 Ted summarizes activity, liaisons etc@@ 16:57:51 Christian: do you see AutoSAR focus being extended to cloud? 16:57:57 Ted: not sure@@@ 17:00:11 Joakim: can you describe your GraphQL uses? 17:02:26 Christian: somewhat, it does a great job to expose complex expansive data stores 17:03:02 Joakim: someone tried an indexing experiment recently Neo4j 17:03:29 Adnan: it can be heavy on the client side 17:04:32 Ted: @@computing resources in-vehicle, Graph BG@@@ 17:04:47 … @@workshop and other datasets 17:09:04 Christian: if you look across the different OEMs some are close to realtime data streaming 17:15:18 [anonymization] 17:15:39 Glenn: maybe Harjot will elaborate about how we anonymize 17:16:04 Harjot: we make certain data sets available after it is aggregated and anonymized such as weather and pothole detection 17:16:20 … we will take 3 or more fleets worth of vehicle to feed into that 17:16:39 Christian: what is a large enough a fleet to provide your anonymization? 17:16:49 Glenn: we are socializing that at present 17:19:20 [more discussion on GPPR/CCPA] 17:19:34 Harjot: we have blackout periods as well, when employees are off the clock 17:24:24 [more on nuances of privacy and hinderance to making use of this data] 17:24:35 Glenn: one argument is the greater good, increasing road safety 17:35:53 Joakim: @@regulators, public interest 17:36:08 Magnus: there is some pending EU legislation along those lines 17:36:29 Peter: I know of an OEM who was sued by government for not providing that information 17:37:04 Christian: cities are requiring data for example in providing permits to the shared scooter providers 17:45:31 ecall legislation is already in effect since late 2018 17:45:49 in eu... 17:46:53 [/me misheard, thanks for correction. not use to an effective govt...] 17:47:10 Topic: Agenda review 17:47:24 Glenn: I want to see handling legacy vehicles as well 17:58:14 https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Auto-f2f-sept-2019 18:28:14 Zakim has left #auto 18:31:17 Topic: Liaisons update and strategy 18:31:42 ISO TC 22 - Extended Vehicle / Neutral Server - liaison request voted on and accepted 18:32:27 ISO TC 204 - Intelligent Transportation Systems - liaison request made, met with their secretariat, will attend their plenary/f2f in Singapore next month where they will vote. also workshop attendees 18:32:58 AutoSAR - discusssed with GENIVI who is on their advisory board, no update 18:44:53 TC22 - Caruso, Otonomo... NVDA 18:45:35 s/NVDA/Nevada/ 18:46:33 Nevada link: https://www.vda.de/en/topics/innovation-and-technology/data-security/what-is.html 18:51:05 @@r2r obd2 silos or miscommunication agree all on same model makes sense 18:51:18 @@strategy - open group call on how to position and pitch this 18:51:38 @@ted to get clear understanding of engagement rules from colleagues and iso. i should be able to represent this group's position 18:51:59 @@flaw_silo_sampling 18:57:45 @@politics of tc 22 && 204 18:57:56 ts 21185 - secure vehicle interface 18:57:57 Ted: willing to be liason for two sides to this issue. The auto distro could help flush out opinions/thoughts regarding topic. 19:04:31 @@SAE Mark Zachos DGtech, unsure which groups i'll check notes of call with him 19:05:03 Glenn: J3138 not to interfere with vehicle systems while in use, probably a good starting point 19:06:06 … J3005 telematics and J3005-2 security for telematics 19:06:26 J3138 non-instrusive & instrusive commands defns: https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3138_201806/ 19:08:16 … Lisa Boran Ford is a good person to talk with 19:08:18 js has joined #auto 19:08:52 Ted: Tom Forrest, Mark Zachos and Ira Mcdonald too, figure out which activities would make sense to try to align 19:09:44 There is a record of the liaison at: https://www.iso.org/organization/10143.html 19:11:29 Ted: SAE more a North America and parts of Asia thing, what is the equiv in EU, VDA? 19:11:51 Adnan: yeah probably, I can look into it more 19:13:58 Christian: there is also Mobi blockchain with Renault, VW, BMW... 19:14:50 … Chris Balenger former Toyota is heading that 19:22:36 Ted: need to get more involved with VDA as well [particulars on individuals to reach out to] 19:22:50 Adnan: also Sensoris coordination 19:23:45 … we've been meeting with them in Munich, agree to some mapping 19:24:03 Ted: we agreed tentatively to same in 2018 19:24:10 Glenn: VDA specs are more prescriptive from my experience 19:31:17 Ted: apart from GENIVI, what is a good way into AutoSAR? 19:31:31 Adnan: not sure, I can ask around 19:33:08 Glenn: ACEA is more involved in TC22 than Nevada is my impression 19:35:12 Topic: Industry Trends 19:35:25 @@news on GM 19:41:34 @@bg 19:42:04 Peter: essentially the same for us in 2021 19:42:52 Ulf: Volvo like the other OEMs started building out their own IVI. there were some working on porting Android to our hardware 19:43:43 … it was much better from far fewer engineers, hence the shift in my opinion 19:43:53 Peter: yeah but a much longer story 19:44:26 Adnan: why not just take Android open source and build on top? 19:44:32 Ulf: not sure 19:46:19 Peter: GENIVI was moving too slowly 19:46:22 Ted: personally I liked the banded approach of AGL/GENIVI for long run 19:46:40 … GENIVI model catered to corporate mentality, AGL more open source mindset 19:47:50 … see OEMs falling for the long game of the tech giants... 19:49:20 Joakim: there is no way some of the OEM can come up with the AI capabilities 19:57:32 @@what does this mean for us? daniel, paul, peter, genivi on android relevance 19:58:20 Ted: TSU@@ 19:58:30 Peter: their vehicle api isn't sufficient and don't see it advancing quick enough 19:59:00 Ulf: I think what we are doing is a compliment to Android which I think has a strong future going forward 19:59:30 … there are many external parties interested in this data that don't want to do so in Android, I see two pipes 19:59:52 Adnan: you will need two interfaces, on and off-board 20:00:02 Ulf: yes but I see two on-board pipes 20:01:42 Ted: GENIVI has an Android initiative, figuring out the gaps and what is needed. I attended their workshop at GENIVI AMM in May in Munich but haven't been attending the calls, should see if we can get a summary from Gunnar 20:02:38 Joakim: we should have clear use cases for which make sense 20:02:50 Peter: we have been having the same circular discussion 21:57:05 Topic: ViWi data 21:57:13 Adnan's diagrams 21:58:16 Adnan previews his and Daniel's assessment of ViWi data representation vs VSS 21:58:55 Adnan: if we can extend ViWi it could be quite good 21:59:23 Ulf: I think they need backwards compatibility 22:00:26 Adnan: we could provide mapping for their current depth structure 22:18:56 ViWi without depth limitation to better support tree models, backwards support could be ViWi service providing previous uris in parallel 22:21:12 Peter: I think given move towards Android it would be difficult to convince Volvo to go towards ViWi 22:21:59 Ulf: Volvo has shown they can use VISS and Android 22:23:51 Ted: I wonder if some would only want to support subscriptions and sockets. Volvo isn't exposing VISS to Android though, right? 22:24:29 Ulf: ViWi is a piece in AGL's IVI stack 22:24:51 Ted: AGL says they do open source code, not standards. maybe overstating... 22:26:02 Peter: their design was to support broader range of cars 22:27:54 Peter: no wrt VISS to Android 22:28:00 … but possible 22:28:40 Adnan: I know a guy going over to GM from Google 22:28:54 Ted: Peter, can you introduce us? 22:29:13 Peter: yeah but not sure how that would go yet 22:29:57 … depends on who 22:30:14 … they have competing teams internally 22:32:47 … they only have a small number of signals at present 22:32:48 https://source.android.com/devices/automotive/properties.html 22:33:14 Adnan: you would have to extend that to be useful 22:38:20 [back to VSS in ViWi] 22:39:01 Ulf: rbranch could help represent ViWi data in VSS 22:39:17 Ted: that might help their forward migration