<hdv> present_
<scribe> scribe: Sharron
<shawn> Confirm changes since approval to publish survey https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Accessible_Media_Resource#History
Shawn: There have been a few
changes since the Approval to Publish survey. Mostly minor
wording changes listed in the previously circulated email
... wanted to be sure everyone had seen those and abel to
comment or ask questions, any?
<shawn> https://wai-media-guide.netlify.com/design-develop/media/planning/#checklist
Shawn: next were the graphics. we
received the next version with an attempt at suggested
revisions. Still may need a bit more tweaking.
... take a look at the icons posted to this link. I would like
you to consider for a minute and comment on the icon for
pre-recorded video.
Laura: Sorry I can see what they are trying to do but my first impression is one of eyeballs.
Lewis: How many people will recognize VHS tape? Could we use DVD icon or something else instead. It may not be a useful icon.
<Laura> +1 to Lewis' comments
Lewis: I would not delay publication but instead think about replacing it when it is feasible.
<Estella> Would it be possible to use a "play" icon for pre-recorded?
Helen: Maybe an icon for a hard drive - often used for saved item. I have an issue with the next one because the contrast is not good - it is unreadable.
Eric: I think th icons are so small they seem unecessary and don't add alot. We don't re-use them in other palces. Don't see why we need them at al.
Sharron: +1
<yatil> [ Eric is totally happy to leave this to the Editor. ]
Shawn: We approved these a few weeks ago. I will ask the chairs if we want to revisit that decision.
Sharron: I am anti-icon in general, so I am happy to revisit. As I recall most people were pretty neutral about them in any case
<Howard> Are you talking about the icons near middle of https://wai-media-guide.netlify.com/design-develop/media/? Sorry got here late.
<shawn> Howard - these https://wai-media-guide.netlify.com/design-develop/media/planning/#checklist
<shawn> Sharron: I'm just not an icon person. Better question is for people who like/use icons
Brent: I can speak for the people who use and snap to icons right away. Once I id the meaning of the icon, I don't even read the text. I am slow reader and love having icons.
Estella: Actually I am an icon lover and also read slow and so apprciate they are here. Even if it looks a bit old-fashioned, I think they are fine.
Howard: I like icons and wonder if it may be better having them from the left to the right, after the text.
s/teg/the
Shadi: I want to say that I had not seen it for a couple of weeks and that this is a great resource, very weell done and will be quite useful.
Shawn: Thanks and looks like we can publish early next week.
Brent: What is the timeline for publication?
Shawn: Depends on the graphics, could publish with rough draft ones but in any case my hope would be to queue up on Monday and publish Tuesda.
Brent: Good to know to get outreach going.
<dmontalvo> https://w3c.github.io/wai-curricula/curricula/introduction/
Daniel: This is the intro to this
specific unit. Changes have been mostly to Units 3, 4, and 5.
Unit 3, is the same title.
... Unit 4 is now called Principles, Guidelines, and
Checks
... within it we have the three topics presented
sequentially
Daneil: (lost audio, reviewed changes to Unit titles)
Daniel: Any suggestions or comments, especially for Unit 4
<shawn> +1 for probably needing "Standards" in Unit 4 title
Shadi: I wonder about Unit 4, why do we not include "standards" which may be something that people look for. What was the rationale?
<Estella> +1 to use "standards"
Daniel: Because we do not include all of the standards here.
<shawn> -- maybe standards/guidelines
Shawn: I think it is OK to use standards even though we do not include all of them.
<Estella> I can not here anything are you talking?
Howard: What was the previous title?
Daniel: Acessibility Standards and Guidelines
<Estella> Now yes
Estella: I am also in favor of using standards even without the full overview of all of them. It will be good to have it in the title because people will look for them.
Daniel: Yes it was originally in the title in large part for the reason of European interest
Helen: The title in the navigation does not map to the current content. Otherwise I don't have a strong feeling about which term to use - principles, guidelines, standards...
Daniel: Yes the vocabulary can be confusing...
Helen: and could add another one, checklist
<Laura> +1 to Standards
Daniel: Anyone else to comment on this title, any speicic concerns or questions?
Eric: I know the struggle with these terms and think standards in the title is probably useful.
Daniel: And we explain the terms
in context at the very beginning.
... any other comments?
Shadi: The third topic - HandsOn experience of standards, does it need "in practice." Or maybe use "checks" in title?
Daniel: Yes I agree with that.
<shadi> [[Hands-on Accessibility Checks]]
Shawn: A brief background that
this section was just called Easy Checks since that is often
used as a teaching tool. Trying to make it clear however that
the goal is not to go learn EC but to get hands-on
experince.
... that is why they title has changed a bit
Shadi: I think it makes sense that the idea of the title is to make an experiencial lesson of applying standards. But remember this is the intro course and is meant only to give people their first glimpse. May not mean to give a full overview of the entire resource in this intro unit.
Shawn: Agree
<shadi> https://deploy-preview-71--wai-curricula.netlify.com/curricula/1-3/#ideas-for-assessment
Daniel: Previous approach was to tie the assessment lesson to the learning outcomes. I am now trying to suggest activities that will demonstrate learning. Suggest specific type of activity with a brief explanation of what is expected. For those working in higher ed, does this seem more useful?
<Estella> +1
Shadi: Critique was that the
previous suggestions for assessing student learning looked more
like homework.
... so the question now is whether this looks generic enough to
be applied in various contexts while also providing enough of a
framework to do meaningul assessment of student learning.
Estella: Will these be guided
assessment or non-guided. Multiple choice for example are given
in non-guided settings like a MOOC. To which type of classes is
this curriculum intended?
... it is still not clear to m where this will be
implemented?
... it is important because the approach in these different
contexts will be quite different.
Daniel: We hope that the curriculum will be applied in all different contexts. We want to provide a foundation that can be adapted to various settings.
Shadi: We have the intention to make this an open approach, ideas that can be widely applied in many contexts. Do you have concerns abut the approach might not work?
Estella: The problems will be in
appling to a university setting, there is no definition of
hours, credits and those expectations for higher ed.
... sometimes the institute will also need to know more detail
about time deciated to each topic, unit, section. For applying
into a unversity setting, the measure must be number of hours
to earn credits. So what standards are we trying to meet?
Shadi: We did try to assign time or percentage of time originally. But thinking about the various settings and semmester/quarter/workshop etc we decided to remove it. Instead we stepped back and will ask the instructors to do the translation of time spent into credits, etc within their own specific circumstance.
<dmontalvo> ack?
Daniel: We had hours assigned at first and realized we could nt anticipate all the ways it may be used, integrated into other courses and such so have tried to be less specific about time.
Shadi: Wanted to realize that depending on the type of course, student interst etc, it could be taught very differently. As Eric said "a framework for a curriculum"
Howard: I do like the approach of calling these ideas for assessment in order to get people thinking aobut psosibilities. I also like the fact that hours are not assigned and to let the instrucotrs determine focus and duration.
<Howard> I would leave it
Brent: I agree with Howard to leave the time decision to the instructor. In the idea of assessment giving teachers the goal of what students should know without proscribing how they test for that but providing some ideas and approaches to help them.
<Brent> I would leave them
Shawn: I wonder if the effort for us to provide those is worth that. It previously seemed so repetitive to the learning outcomes.It may not be that instrucotrs even will use tem.
<Yatil2k-ipad_> +1 to remove them for now,
Brent: Many trainers or teachers will come up with their own ways to assess student learning. But we have to remember that we have also anticipated that some people may use this who have never taught.
<Estella> +1 to Brent
<Yatil2k-ipad_> +1 to the concept, but ultimately happy with whatever Daniel & the group find appropriate
<Estella> Sorry I lost the audio again
<Brent> +1 to beefing up the guidance on the introduction.
Shadi: Maybe put this in a survey - leave in the assessment ideas or not. I also hear Estella's point that it is not at this time well suited for higher ed. Maybe we need a meta narrative to explain that this is framework and should be used and modified for the specific setting.
<Yatil2k-ipad_> THANK YOU Daniel, for all the work on it, it shapes up great!
Daniel: OK we will soon open a survey for Unite 3 and I will include these and other topics we did not get to at today's meeting. Thank you so much!
<shadi> Daniel++
<shawn> Sharron: ... difficult & complex task - good job, Daniel
<Laura> I agree with Sharron. Great work.
<Estella> Sorry for that, I restarted the computer now I can here everything
Shadi: Thanks so much for all the comments. Wanted to recognize that there is some need for a less formal academic approach. I had some questions to followup with the survey input. There was a question about the repetition between some of the videos. This is due to the fact that we would not expect people to watch the videos sequentially. So how bothersome is it that there is repeition in the
intro and then in the specific resource video?
Brent: The repetition would be a problem if there were to be a compilation like there was in the perspective videos.
Hidde: I think it is good to repeat ourselves in some vidoes since we will nto expect tpeople to sit and watch all these videos and some points need to be made in different places.
<Brent> Also Shadi FYI, for me it was more the repetition of the visuals not the message.
Shawn: I support the idea of having an overview and then separate videos and accepting the idea that there will be repition.
<Estella> +1 to repetition
<Laura> +1 to Shawn
<dmontalvo> +1 to the overview video as it is now
<Estella> Also for easy-to-read standards
<shawn> Sharron: some points are worth repeating. I didn't see an issue with repetition.
Eric: I had some issues with the repetition. You should just have a look of the overview video - this is the one where we should be telling the audience what we are going to teach them, stay with high level points.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say overview not compilation
Eric: I was at some point wondering why this particular point was detailed in the overview. Just need to review to keep things high level.
<Yatil2k-ipad_> I don’t ’t think we _need_ a compilation at this point
Shawn: I think some people may want to watch them all. At some point, let's think about the people who may want to watch them all.
<shawn> [ discussion of whether or not people will want to watch all of them, or not ]
Sharron: I don't agree that there would be much of a use case for that.
<shawn> Shawn: ... not really have a good concept of where & how these videos will be presented
<Brent> Question for Shadi. Was the original purpose of this first set of video work to create a series on Evaluation Videos? Or was it to just create videos about some of our resources to help introduce them?
<shawn> +1 for the videos including the most important info in the resoure itself
<Yatil2k-ipad_> As+
<Yatil2k-ipad_> A+
<Estella> Sorry but I do think that people might like to watch the videos as a compilation on a Saturday night
Shadi: I am trying to balance between promotional and instructional.
Brent: Was the original intent was to create specifically evaluation videos or about all WAI resources?
Shadi: Maybe not embedded on the resource page but easily linked from the resource. The primary use was to introduce a whole variety of resources but have had to reel it back due to the budget. Evaluation was the top priotity.
<shawn> axck me
Eric: As the overview video prompts the interest in the specific resource. Having the overview be quite brief and introductory is ost useful. At this point I thought it ran quite long.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say for example, video should include caveat that tools can't do all checks
Sharron: +1
Shawn: I do think the vidoes should include some improtant instructional content. Like "tools can't do all checks"
Sharron +1
Shadi: I am hearing to keep it
more on the isntructional side rather than promotional, avoid
repetition between the resource videos, make intor a bit more
brief.
... Tagline - "Essential for some, useful for all" Some peole
want to keep and promote the tag line. Some like it and want to
keep and promote that tagline. Others think this set of
resources needs its own tagline.
<Estella> +1 to keep the tagline
Shadi: on the one hand this tagline is catching on, have seen it used in papers and in conference presentations.
Shawn: Should look at using it throughout the site more and it seems to be a good overarching theme. But it is a bit distracting in this context and does not seem relevant.
<Brent> +1 to use the FULL tagline here and in other places.
Daniel: I do like it and should not be distracting. Rather it ties it together with the other videos. common theme.
Estella: I agree with Daniel and Shadi. The tagline reminds us from the UN - nothing about us without us. A good message to keep and reiterate.
<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to comment on
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn look at integrating perspectives tagline throughout site!
<trackbot> Created ACTION-392 - Look at integrating perspectives tagline throughout site! [on Shawn Henry - due 2019-09-13].
<shawn> Sharron: I agree it's a great tagline. And resonates really , really well. But in this context, maybe think of a tagling specific to evalaution. It's a bit "huh, what" in this context.
<shawn> ... lock Shawn in room until she comes up with eval-specific tagline
Eric: We have a tagline claim
that works very well, no
... need to change it.
Sharron: I see Shawn's point that it is not specific to evaluation.
<shawn> Perspective Videos ending = "Visit w3.org/WAI/perspectives for more information on Customizable Text."
Shadi: The end plate. The question is do we just say "for more information," from more information about web accessibility, OR for more information about web accessibility evaluation.
Shawn: Actually the perspective vidoes end by pointing to specifc resources. I think we should do the same here.
<yatil> good
Shawn: link to the eval overview page
<shawn> For the links to "WCAG-EM: Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology", "WCAG-EM Report Tool: Website Accessibility Evaluation Report Generator", and other evaluation resources, visit w3.org/WAI/eval
<shawn> For the links to the Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools List, the Selecting guidance, and other evaluation resources, visit w3.org/WAI/eval
<yatil> [ Why not just “Visit w3.org/WAI/eval for more information about this.” ]
Sharron: +1 to yatil
<shawn> For the link to Easy Checks and other evaluation resources, visit w3.org/WAI/eval
<yatil> [ and I would use w3.org/WAI/evaluation instead and redirect ]
<hdv> [ For more information, see w3.org/WAI/evaluation ]
<dmontalvo> +1 to use the real word
Helen: I was thinking whatever link we do use, it needs to be able to link beneath the video as well, on the static page.
<shawn> [ /WAI/evaluation or /WAI/evaluate or ...]
<shawn> +1 to send to evaluation overview
<Sylvie> Evaluation sounds ok, +1
<Zakim> yatil, you wanted to say shortlink
<shawn> .
Shadi: Using abstract
illustrations so now really showing a browser, using anmation.
Wants to use abstract illustrations of users as well not real
people because don't have capacity to show racial, disability,
gender diversity. Screenshots are not being considered because
that would lock us into English. Drop me any thoughts you might
have about it.
... will be updating the scripts so keep alert for that.
Brent: We can have a weekly survey as you make these revisions.
Shadi: Maybe on Tuesday or so can put a survey up and have people look by Friday
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/
Shawn: I am curious how often people actually go to the current homepage, please visit and say what your reactions is
Hidde: Seems to me it is tightened up a bit and I think it needs more white space
Estella: I like the way it looks but I need more space between sections to prevent seeming crowded and confuisng.
Laura: Yes I have to agree with that, more white space is needed.
<Brent> Top of home page seems crowded to me now.
Shawn: Go to any page on the WAI web site, look at spacing between lines and before and after headings.
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/components/
Laura: I am on the Planning and Managing page, culd be a little less space before the heading. But it can be content dependent.
<Estella> +1 to leave the space
<hdv> +1 to leave at least as much space as there is
<Brent> Here is a page with a lot of text: https://www.w3.org/WAI/business-case/bibliography/
Laura: That is when I looked at the amount of space above the h2s on an overview page, it is not text heavy and space is not needed. But on a content page, like Essential Components, it is text heavy and the space about the h2 seems necessary and provides good guidance for the reader.
Brent: We will post a survey, please be alert to work for this week and I hope everyone has a good weekend. Thanks all!
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/monor/minor/ Succeeded: s/tehy/they/ FAILED: s/teg/the/ Succeeded: s/teh/the/ Succeeded: s/that thi/that this/ Succeeded: s/Unit 5/Unit 4/ Succeeded: s/ide/idea/ Succeeded: s/experincial/experiencial/ Succeeded: s/ It seems so repetitive to the learning outcomes. / It previously seemed so repetitive to the learning outcomes./ Succeeded: s/Dnaiel/Daniel/ Succeeded: s/I find it perfect.// Succeeded: s/about/above/ Default Present: Shawn, Brent, Daniel, Eric, Estella, Helen, Hidde, Laura, Lewis, Shadi, Sharron, Sylvie, Howard Present: Shawn Brent Daniel Eric Estella Helen Hidde Laura Lewis Shadi Sharron Sylvie Howard Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Found Date: 06 Sep 2019 People with action items: shawn WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]