IRC log of tt on 2019-09-05

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:00:15 [trackbot]
Date: 05 September 2019
14:00:20 [nigel]
Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc
14:00:25 [nigel]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
14:00:29 [nigel]
Present: Nigel
14:00:31 [nigel]
Chair: Nigel
14:00:46 [nigel]
Regrets: Andreas, Glenn
14:01:10 [nigel]
Regrets+ Atushi_first_hour
14:01:17 [nigel]
s/Atu/Atsu
14:01:45 [cyril]
cyril has joined #tt
14:02:14 [cyril]
scribe: Cyril
14:02:22 [cyril]
Present: Gary, Cyril, Nigel
14:02:25 [calvaris]
calvaris has joined #tt
14:02:33 [cyril]
chair: Nigel
14:02:51 [cyril]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
14:03:16 [cyril]
Regrets: Andreas, Glenn
14:03:26 [nigel]
Regrets+ Atsushi_first_hour
14:04:26 [nigel]
Regrets+ Pierre_first_hour
14:04:29 [cyril]
Topic: this meeting
14:05:09 [cyril]
nigel: we have webvtt, imsc, tpac and aob, including charter status
14:05:32 [cyril]
... with the absents, I'm not sure we'll cover everything
14:06:25 [cyril]
cyril: I'd like to review the timelines for our deliverables, to set some goals for TPAC
14:07:21 [cyril]
Topic: WebVTT
14:07:56 [cyril]
nigel: the first point is action 51
14:08:15 [cyril]
https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/51
14:08:42 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html#x02 Minutes relating to #51
14:09:20 [cyril]
nigel: it's to make sure the comments raised during the first CfC were raised as issues
14:09:51 [cyril]
gkatsev: I checked all tests that did not have 2 or more passes and created an issue
14:10:03 [cyril]
.... marked with [IR] and there were 7 of them
14:10:22 [cyril]
nigel: I see that was done on July 3rd
14:10:31 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+%5BIR%5D Issues created with [IR]
14:10:44 [cyril]
nigel: is that done then?
14:10:52 [cyril]
gkatsev: yes, I think we can close that
14:11:16 [nigel]
s/Topic: WebVTT/Topic: Check open issues for WebVTT are raised ttwg#51
14:11:32 [cyril]
cyril: was this the only comment during CR
14:11:34 [cyril]
gkatsev: yes
14:12:59 [cyril]
summary: issue can be closed
14:13:07 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
14:16:57 [calvaris]
Xabier
14:17:04 [nigel]
Present+ Xabier_Rodríguez_Calvar
14:18:36 [calvaris]
calvaris@igalia.com
14:19:03 [cyril]
Topic: Discussion snapshot w3c/webvtt#460
14:19:16 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
14:19:47 [cyril]
gkatsev: there is a bunch of changes in the snapshot
14:20:05 [cyril]
... I wanted to go through and categorize them according to the W3C Process document
14:20:16 [cyril]
nigel: which one is the right list?
14:20:40 [cyril]
gkatsev: changes.html
14:20:50 [gkatsev]
-> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gkatsev/webvtt/blob/at-risk-june/archives/2019-09-01/changes.html list of changes
14:21:19 [cyril]
nigel: normally the technical changes would be the substantive one
14:21:35 [cyril]
gkatsev: we can review the at-risk ones
14:22:54 [cyril]
nigel: I'd be interested to a staff view on that
14:23:28 [cyril]
gkatsev: the "make vtt lines be a long" one is changing the WebIDL for the lines property from an unsigned long to a long
14:23:36 [cyril]
nigel: it has 2 GitHub issues
14:23:48 [cyril]
gkatsev: one is the PR and the other one is the issue
14:23:52 [cyril]
... 457 is the issue
14:24:17 [cyril]
... and 461 fixes 457 as well
14:24:49 [cyril]
nigel: the change document lists the github issues, so you might want to change the first one to 457 and remove the editorial dup
14:24:57 [cyril]
gkatsev: yes, I'll do that
14:26:03 [cyril]
nigel: that is indeed substantive
14:26:28 [cyril]
gkatsev: from a process perspective, that is a correction that does not add new features
14:26:46 [cyril]
gkatsev: next one is "Update region lines parsing to round to +/- MAX_VALUE"
14:26:56 [cyril]
... it's based on the current implementation in Safari
14:27:04 [cyril]
... the mozilla people are on board with that change
14:27:16 [cyril]
... it is a correction that does not add new features
14:27:24 [cyril]
nigel: yes, that is not a new feature
14:27:30 [cyril]
... but it is definitely substantive
14:27:45 [cyril]
... it's worth pointing to the issue 467
14:27:59 [cyril]
gkatsev: I'll do that for the at risk ones also
14:28:25 [cyril]
... next one is changing editors
14:28:35 [cyril]
nigel: obviously editorial
14:28:41 [cyril]
... then you have the at risk ones
14:28:49 [cyril]
... and the last was a dup, we discussed it
14:29:07 [cyril]
... so there was no change made for the [IR] issues?
14:29:17 [cyril]
gkatsev: a lot of them are already covered by these changes
14:30:49 [cyril]
[going through the IR issues]
14:31:17 [nigel]
I'm on #465
14:31:58 [cyril]
gkatsev: Safari for this one, the region parser is correct, but the way you interact is not
14:32:06 [cyril]
nigel: are they going to fix that?
14:32:09 [cyril]
gkatsev: I hope so
14:32:19 [cyril]
nigel: I mean during the CR period
14:32:25 [cyril]
... you could get stuck in CR because of this
14:32:40 [cyril]
... one route out could be for Safari to remove the prefix
14:32:55 [cyril]
... another route is to mark it at risk
14:33:02 [cyril]
... another one would be to tweak the test
14:33:21 [cyril]
... on the last one I'm a bit uneasy because we would not be testing the spec
14:33:40 [cyril]
gkatsev: if it's parsing correctly, that means the test should pass
14:34:02 [cyril]
... but it's failing after it's parsing
14:34:23 [cyril]
nigel: we have members from apple in this group
14:34:35 [cyril]
... we should be going to them
14:34:52 [cyril]
... Eric would be a good person
14:35:18 [cyril]
... asking: is this something they might fix in the developer preview
14:35:26 [cyril]
gkatsev: I'll reach out to them
14:35:46 [cyril]
... 463 is similar, weird implementation in Safari
14:36:29 [cyril]
nigel: the resolution for this one is not marked at risk
14:36:35 [cyril]
... so what's our resolution
14:36:45 [cyril]
gkatsev: we should talk to Apple
14:36:56 [nigel]
s/resolution/exit plan
14:36:56 [cyril]
... we could mark regions at risk but removing it would not be good
14:37:31 [cyril]
nigel: depending on their response, we may need to tweak the spec or just wait until they are done with it
14:38:09 [cyril]
nigel: the last one is 464
14:38:13 [cyril]
... entities test failing
14:38:35 [cyril]
... we don't have an exit plan for this issue
14:38:48 [cyril]
... if this continues, do we have any other implementation that would pass?
14:38:56 [cyril]
gkatsev: I think vtt.js may support it
14:39:37 [cyril]
... also we can try doing what we discussed the lines attribute, split up the test in 2 portions
14:39:44 [cyril]
... and say the core part passes
14:39:53 [cyril]
... but the first thing is to see how vtt.js fares
14:40:02 [cyril]
... I could tweak it
14:40:20 [cyril]
nigel: we have a clearer understanding about the snapshot
14:41:08 [cyril]
... there is some action needed because we don't want to go back to CR again
14:41:35 [cyril]
Xabier: when you speak about regions, are they CSS regions?
14:41:43 [cyril]
gkatsev: no, WebVTT regions
14:41:58 [cyril]
nigel: it's a good question, what's the relationship between the 2
14:42:07 [cyril]
calvaris: is there are relationship?
14:42:15 [cyril]
gkatsev: I don't think so
14:44:21 [cyril]
Topic: CfC for new CR?
14:44:38 [cyril]
gkatsev: we just answered it, more work is needed before that
14:44:48 [cyril]
... and worst case we can talk to Apple about that
14:45:03 [cyril]
nigel: is it just Apple? or could it be that support from Firefox or Chrome would help
14:45:24 [cyril]
gkatsev: Chrome just started implemented inline styles, maybe we can convince them to work on regions
14:45:33 [cyril]
... or Microsoft with Chromium+Edge
14:45:50 [cyril]
nigel: anything else on WebVTT?
14:46:41 [cyril]
Topic: TPAC Planning
14:47:04 [cyril]
nigel: we have a number of sub-parts to that agenda item
14:47:27 [cyril]
... the meeting with the Chinese IG
14:47:43 [cyril]
Topic: Request a meeting at TPAC with Chinese IG #60
14:47:44 [nigel]
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/60
14:48:00 [cyril]
nigel: I requested this at the proposal of
14:48:27 [cyril]
... Fuchao got back to us and suggested Friday afternoon
14:48:40 [cyril]
... they want us to join because they are a larger group
14:48:53 [cyril]
... Andreas initially suggested Thursday but that got deleted
14:49:21 [cyril]
... this is to discuss Danmaku
14:49:51 [cyril]
cyril: Is it ging to be the last session on the Friday afternoon
14:49:57 [cyril]
nigel: not clear yet
14:50:17 [cyril]
... the meeting will be in chinese and the essential points will be translated by volunteers
14:50:53 [cyril]
cyril: I would prefer if we would wrap our meeting not with a joint meeting
14:50:58 [cyril]
nigel: so maybe after lunch
14:51:41 [cyril]
... the action is back to me
14:52:11 [cyril]
SUMMARY: the group would like to meet the Chinese IG in the afternoon, preferably not at the end of the day
14:52:26 [nigel]
github-bot, end topic
14:52:43 [cyril]
gkatsev: this will be my first TPAC and I'm interested in the MEdia WG which is also Thursday and Friday
14:52:49 [cyril]
cyril: me too ...
14:53:36 [cyril]
nigel: there are clashes with other groups (accessibility, ...)
14:54:05 [cyril]
... it's difficult to schedule the meeting
14:54:14 [cyril]
... I can't resolve your clash Gary
14:54:58 [cyril]
Topic: Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52
14:55:16 [cyril]
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52
14:56:12 [cyril]
nigel: the list as it stands has a bunch of CSS issues and one TTML one at the moment
14:56:27 [cyril]
... the TTML one is about text-combine
14:56:32 [cyril]
... then shearing
14:56:43 [cyril]
... then equivalent of multiRowAlign
14:57:03 [cyril]
... then about background area with fillLineGap
14:57:18 [cyril]
... and for that one there is a proposed solution
14:57:35 [cyril]
... then padding at start and end of line
14:57:42 [cyril]
... but the issue is closed
14:58:21 [cyril]
... and last one is images with layout information, like Apple Pay logo
14:58:38 [cyril]
... I think there is another one about accessibility
14:59:05 [cyril]
... there is a CSS WG issue which concerns making something invisible on a visual presentation but visible to screen readers
14:59:18 [cyril]
... there seem to be quite a few requirement on this
14:59:43 [cyril]
... CSS WG issue 560
14:59:54 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560 [css-display] create a display property value for visually hiding an element while making it available for AT #560
15:00:42 [cyril]
... and that is connected to an IMSC issue that I raised recently
15:01:09 [cyril]
... to expose burned-in narrative text to a screen reader
15:01:22 [cyril]
... sighted people can see it but we want to put that in a ARIA live region
15:02:17 [cyril]
Present+ Pierre, Glenn
15:02:25 [cyril]
rrsagent, pointer
15:02:25 [RRSAgent]
See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc#T15-02-25
15:03:35 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:03:44 [nigel]
Regrets- Glenn
15:03:50 [nigel]
Regrets+ Glenn_first_hour
15:06:04 [cyril]
pal: we also issue 44 from IMSC
15:06:17 [atsushi]
present+
15:06:27 [cyril]
nigel: it is in the GitHub list
15:06:58 [cyril]
nigel: about TPAC planning, I have an email from Alan, one of the CSS WG chairs
15:07:15 [cyril]
... proposing at 9:30 on Tuesday morning
15:07:21 [cyril]
... I'm going to say yes
15:10:27 [cyril]
nigel: regarding the M&E IG, they listed 2 topics
15:10:38 [cyril]
... but there are lot more topics we could talk about
15:10:51 [cyril]
... live, karaoke, danmaku, ...
15:11:01 [cyril]
... and we could think about MSE and text tracks
15:11:13 [cyril]
... because MSE only supports audio/video
15:11:44 [cyril]
... those are my suggestions
15:11:53 [cyril]
... but we have a limited amount of time
15:12:09 [cyril]
... are there other topics or prioritization views?
15:12:56 [cyril]
cyril: when will the new text track api be discussed
15:13:00 [nigel]
-> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face_to_face_meeting_during_TPAC_2019#16:00_-_17:00_Timed_Text_Working_Group_joint_meeting M&E IG agenda
15:13:04 [cyril]
pal: on wednesday
15:13:32 [cyril]
nigel: there is a request for break out sessions and a request for demo
15:14:05 [cyril]
... do we want to raise the text track api with the M&E IG?
15:14:13 [cyril]
cyril: no
15:14:34 [cyril]
gkatsev: we need to check what is the overlap between the M&E IG, the Media WG and the TTWG
15:15:00 [cyril]
nigel: that's exactly the sort of thing that the M&E IG should discuss, I'll ping Chris
15:16:54 [cyril]
Topic: TPAC Planning - Topics and schedule
15:17:13 [cyril]
nigel: Cyril raised goals at the beginning of this meeting
15:17:30 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
15:17:35 [nigel]
Nigel: Did you have something in mind Cyril?
15:17:46 [nigel]
Cyril: We initially wanted heartbeat publications of our spec and we deviated from that.
15:17:56 [nigel]
.. We still have a goal to publish regularly so we should aim to publish soon
15:18:13 [nigel]
.. TPAC should be the opportunity to really wrap up and work towards publishing as soon as possible.
15:18:21 [nigel]
Nigel: Makes sense to me
15:19:13 [nigel]
Cyril: Maybe a good goal is to agree to publish FPWDs of the specs after TPAC.
15:19:31 [nigel]
Nigel: Yes, there is a publication moratorium around TPAC, but that shouldn't stop us making a resolution.
15:20:06 [cyril]
scribe: Cyril
15:20:18 [cyril]
nigel: we have a list of topics but an empty schedule
15:20:27 [cyril]
... I want to know if there are other topics not listed
15:20:37 [cyril]
... and if there are any constraints
15:26:05 [cyril]
pal: the only constraints I have is that I have to leave at 6pm on Thursday
15:26:13 [cyril]
... I won't be available at all on Friday
15:26:35 [calvaris]
I have to leave now! see you next time (if my agenda allows it)
15:27:54 [cyril]
pal: the embedded font feature should really be closed either before TPAC or at TPAC
15:29:13 [cyril]
nigel: so we should try to do as much as we can on Thursday so that we can join the other groups on Friday
15:29:20 [cyril]
... we could also move WebVTT on Friday
15:29:43 [cyril]
nigel: action on me and gary to come up with an agenda
15:30:24 [nigel]
-> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/67 Issue for Nigel and Gary
15:30:49 [cyril]
nigel: there is an option for demo
15:31:00 [cyril]
... andreas asked for a joint demo from the TTWG
15:32:03 [cyril]
... any question on this demo topic?
15:32:25 [cyril]
Topic: Add support for #font w3c/imsc#485
15:32:33 [cyril]
github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485
15:33:23 [cyril]
nigel: we resolved to support OTF only
15:33:32 [cyril]
... since then a couple of things have come up
15:33:50 [cyril]
... where to list the supported types in a way that can be referenced
15:34:00 [cyril]
... one idea was to use some sort of feature designation
15:34:06 [cyril]
... another is a registry of type
15:34:31 [cyril]
... if we do the feature designation, the question is where would it be
15:34:41 [cyril]
... I suggested that we could do a module for that
15:34:49 [cyril]
glenn: I like that option
15:35:29 [cyril]
... we have already a feature designation for PNG
15:35:38 [cyril]
... in TTML2
15:35:50 [cyril]
nigel: we could potentially move that out of TTML2 and put it somewhere else
15:36:02 [cyril]
... it's a feature at the moment not an extension
15:37:34 [cyril]
-> https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf, font/otf mime type definition
15:38:26 [cyril]
nigel: now that we can pull in media of different types
15:39:02 [cyril]
... one way to constrain what a processor supports is to have a feature designation for that
15:39:27 [cyril]
... it's not core to TTML itself
15:40:29 [cyril]
cyril: are we going to define a feature request for all audio codecs?
15:40:45 [cyril]
nigel: I was suggesting to do it on requests, not pro-actively
15:40:52 [cyril]
... but we can discuss it
15:41:07 [cyril]
pal: my vote is to keep it simple and constrain the list of supported mime types in IMSC
15:41:26 [cyril]
... I don't object to create a module or registry
15:41:38 [cyril]
nigel: so just say in IMSC the following formats are supported
15:41:45 [cyril]
pal: that makes sense
15:42:01 [cyril]
s/that makes sense/yes
15:42:05 [cyril]
nigel: that makes sense
15:42:28 [cyril]
glenn: even in IMSC you need feature designation that match capabilities
15:43:55 [cyril]
... if you were to add support for OTF to #font feature that would be going beyond what #font defines
15:44:13 [cyril]
... either you stick with what we have today or diverge
15:44:27 [cyril]
... right now all features in TTML or IMSC are attached to feature designations
15:44:53 [cyril]
pal: are you saying that the #font feature in TTML2 is purely syntactic support, parsing the font element?
15:45:18 [cyril]
glenn: right now it only requires support for the syntax, no requirement for any font decoder
15:46:11 [cyril]
pal: I'm happy to not define any extension in IMSC and just say the font format we support
15:46:32 [cyril]
... or to define an extension in IMSC that signals specific font support
15:46:39 [cyril]
... or to define an external module
15:46:47 [nigel]
q+ to add an option for a ttp:types element with a ttp:type child (1..*) under profile
15:46:48 [cyril]
... or to define an external registry
15:47:09 [cyril]
... but we need to make a decision
15:47:22 [nigel]
ack nigel
15:47:22 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to add an option for a ttp:types element with a ttp:type child (1..*) under profile
15:47:25 [cyril]
glenn: in my opinion, the best option is to use feature designation
15:47:56 [cyril]
nigel: we could add a new element to the profile element, adding a ttp:types attribute
15:48:41 [cyril]
glenn: you're suggesting a new element
15:48:49 [cyril]
nigel: yes, following the same pattern we have today
15:49:02 [cyril]
glenn: it's worth thinking about it
15:49:17 [cyril]
... in some way it introduces yet another mechanism for defining functional support
15:49:26 [cyril]
... we have feature and extension and we would have a 3rd thing
15:49:36 [cyril]
... but for IMSC there may be shorter options
15:49:58 [cyril]
nigel: the easiest path is simply to list it in the IMSC spec
15:50:08 [cyril]
cyril: I would favor this option
15:51:19 [cyril]
nigel: let's keep discussing that point
15:52:26 [cyril]
on the topic of formats, compressing fonts is an important features
15:52:34 [cyril]
... we should allow for WOFF
15:52:40 [cyril]
... I'm proposing to add support for WOFF
15:54:15 [cyril]
cyril: my point is that OTF is broad, it includes TTF, CFF, SVG outlines
15:54:27 [cyril]
... and also WOFF has a new version WOFF2
15:54:42 [cyril]
pal: I'm happy as long as we can feedback from implementers
15:56:59 [cyril]
cyril: is there an option where we do not specify in IMSC and let applications specify it
15:57:07 [cyril]
pal: maybe a minimum
15:57:13 [cyril]
... and not preclude other types
16:00:15 [cyril]
glenn: we could also mandate support for specific open source fonts
16:03:38 [atsushi]
> The deadline for responses is 23:59, Boston time on 2019-09-10.
16:04:32 [cyril]
Topic: next meeting
16:04:47 [cyril]
nigel: we will not have a meeting next week, our next meeting will be at TPAC
16:05:35 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
16:05:47 [nigel]
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we got through a lot today. See you in Japan! [adjourns meeting]
16:05:50 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:22:06 [nigel]
s/MEdia WG /Media WG
16:22:22 [nigel]
s/resolve your clash Gary/resolve your clash Gary!
16:24:37 [nigel]
s|https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf,|https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf
16:25:47 [nigel]
s/on the topic of formats, compressing fonts/.. on the topic of formats, compressing fonts
16:25:54 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:27:27 [nigel]
i/> The deadline/Topic: TTWG Charter review
16:27:51 [nigel]
i/> The deadline/Nigel: Please remind your AC rep to vote. When is the deadline Atsushi?
16:27:53 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:28:25 [nigel]
scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:28:30 [nigel]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
18:11:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt