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14:00:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:00:15 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2019
14:00:20 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc
14:00:25 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
14:00:29 <nigel> Present: Nigel
14:00:31 <nigel> Chair: Nigel
14:00:46 <nigel> Regrets: Andreas, Glenn
14:01:10 <nigel> Regrets+ Atushi_first_hour
14:01:17 <nigel> s/Atu/Atsu
14:01:45 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
14:02:14 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
14:02:22 <cyril> Present: Gary, Cyril, Nigel
14:02:25 <calvaris> calvaris has joined #tt
14:02:33 <cyril> chair: Nigel
14:02:51 <cyril> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/61
14:03:16 <cyril> Regrets: Andreas, Glenn
14:03:26 <nigel> Regrets+ Atsushi_first_hour
14:04:26 <nigel> Regrets+ Pierre_first_hour
14:04:29 <cyril> Topic: this meeting
14:05:09 <cyril> nigel: we have webvtt, imsc, tpac and aob, including charter status
14:05:32 <cyril> ... with the absents, I'm not sure we'll cover everything
14:06:25 <cyril> cyril: I'd like to review the timelines for our deliverables, to set some goals for TPAC
14:07:21 <cyril> Topic: WebVTT
14:07:56 <cyril> nigel: the first point is action 51
14:08:15 <cyril> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/51
14:08:42 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/2019/06/27-tt-minutes.html#x02 Minutes relating to #51
14:09:20 <cyril> nigel: it's to make sure the comments raised during the first CfC were raised as issues
14:09:51 <cyril> gkatsev: I checked all tests that did not have 2 or more passes and created an issue
14:10:03 <cyril> .... marked with [IR] and there were 7 of them
14:10:22 <cyril> nigel: I see that was done on July 3rd
14:10:31 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+%5BIR%5D Issues created with [IR]
14:10:44 <cyril> nigel: is that done then?
14:10:52 <cyril> gkatsev: yes, I think we can close that
14:11:16 <nigel> s/Topic: WebVTT/Topic: Check open issues for WebVTT are raised ttwg#51
14:11:32 <cyril> cyril: was this the only comment during CR
14:11:34 <cyril> gkatsev: yes
14:12:59 <cyril> summary: issue can be closed
14:13:07 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
14:16:57 <calvaris> Xabier
14:17:04 <nigel> Present+ Xabier_Rodríguez_Calvar
14:18:36 <calvaris> calvaris@igalia.com
14:19:03 <cyril> Topic: Discussion snapshot w3c/webvtt#460
14:19:16 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
14:19:47 <cyril> gkatsev: there is a bunch of changes in the snapshot
14:20:05 <cyril> ... I wanted to go through and categorize them according to the W3C Process document
14:20:16 <cyril> nigel: which one is the right list?
14:20:40 <cyril> gkatsev: changes.html
14:20:50 <gkatsev> -> https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/gkatsev/webvtt/blob/at-risk-june/archives/2019-09-01/changes.html list of changes
14:21:19 <cyril> nigel: normally the technical changes would be the substantive one
14:21:35 <cyril> gkatsev: we can review the at-risk ones
14:22:54 <cyril> nigel: I'd be interested to a staff view on that
14:23:28 <cyril> gkatsev: the "make vtt lines be a long" one is changing the WebIDL for the lines property from an unsigned long to a long
14:23:36 <cyril> nigel: it has 2 GitHub issues
14:23:48 <cyril> gkatsev: one is the PR and the other one is the issue
14:23:52 <cyril> ... 457 is the issue
14:24:17 <cyril> ... and 461 fixes 457 as well
14:24:49 <cyril> nigel: the change document lists the github issues, so you might want to change the first one to 457 and remove the editorial dup
14:24:57 <cyril> gkatsev: yes, I'll do that
14:26:03 <cyril> nigel: that is indeed substantive
14:26:28 <cyril> gkatsev: from a process perspective, that is a correction that does not add new features
14:26:46 <cyril> gkatsev: next one is "Update region lines parsing to round to +/- MAX_VALUE"
14:26:56 <cyril> ... it's based on the current implementation in Safari
14:27:04 <cyril> ... the mozilla people are on board with that change
14:27:16 <cyril> ... it is a correction that does not add new features
14:27:24 <cyril> nigel: yes, that is not a new feature
14:27:30 <cyril> ... but it is definitely substantive
14:27:45 <cyril> ... it's worth pointing to the issue 467
14:27:59 <cyril> gkatsev: I'll do that for the at risk ones also
14:28:25 <cyril> ... next one is changing editors
14:28:35 <cyril> nigel: obviously editorial
14:28:41 <cyril> ... then you have the at risk ones
14:28:49 <cyril> ... and the last was a dup, we discussed it
14:29:07 <cyril> ... so there was no change made for the [IR] issues?
14:29:17 <cyril> gkatsev: a lot of them are already covered by these changes
14:30:49 <cyril> [going through the IR issues]
14:31:17 <nigel> I'm on #465
14:31:58 <cyril> gkatsev: Safari for this one, the region parser is correct, but the way you interact is not
14:32:06 <cyril> nigel: are they going to fix that?
14:32:09 <cyril> gkatsev: I hope so
14:32:19 <cyril> nigel: I mean during the CR period
14:32:25 <cyril> ... you could get stuck in CR because of this
14:32:40 <cyril> ... one route out could be for Safari to remove the prefix
14:32:55 <cyril> ... another route is to mark it at risk
14:33:02 <cyril> ... another one would be to tweak the test
14:33:21 <cyril> ... on the last one I'm a bit uneasy because we would not be testing the spec
14:33:40 <cyril> gkatsev: if it's parsing correctly, that means the test should pass
14:34:02 <cyril> ... but it's failing after it's parsing
14:34:23 <cyril> nigel: we have members from apple in this group
14:34:35 <cyril> ... we should be going to them
14:34:52 <cyril> ... Eric would be a good person
14:35:18 <cyril> ... asking: is this something they might fix in the developer preview
14:35:26 <cyril> gkatsev: I'll reach out to them
14:35:46 <cyril> ... 463 is similar, weird implementation in Safari
14:36:29 <cyril> nigel: the resolution for this one is not marked at risk
14:36:35 <cyril> ... so what's our resolution
14:36:45 <cyril> gkatsev: we should talk to Apple
14:36:56 <nigel> s/resolution/exit plan
14:36:56 <cyril> ... we could mark regions at risk but removing it would not be good
14:37:31 <cyril> nigel: depending on their response, we may need to tweak the spec or just wait until they are done with it
14:38:09 <cyril> nigel: the last one is 464
14:38:13 <cyril> ... entities test failing
14:38:35 <cyril> ... we don't have an exit plan for this issue
14:38:48 <cyril> ... if this continues, do we have any other implementation that would pass?
14:38:56 <cyril> gkatsev: I think vtt.js may support it
14:39:37 <cyril> ... also we can try doing what we discussed the lines attribute, split up the test in 2 portions
14:39:44 <cyril> ... and say the core part passes
14:39:53 <cyril> ... but the first thing is to see how vtt.js fares
14:40:02 <cyril> ... I could tweak it
14:40:20 <cyril> nigel: we have a clearer understanding about the snapshot
14:41:08 <cyril> ... there is some action needed because we don't want to go back to CR again
14:41:35 <cyril> Xabier: when you speak about regions, are they CSS regions?
14:41:43 <cyril> gkatsev: no, WebVTT regions
14:41:58 <cyril> nigel: it's a good question, what's the relationship between the 2
14:42:07 <cyril> calvaris: is there are relationship?
14:42:15 <cyril> gkatsev: I don't think so
14:44:21 <cyril> Topic: CfC for new CR?
14:44:38 <cyril> gkatsev: we just answered it, more work is needed before that
14:44:48 <cyril> ... and worst case we can talk to Apple about that
14:45:03 <cyril> nigel: is it just Apple? or could it be that support from Firefox or Chrome would help
14:45:24 <cyril> gkatsev: Chrome just started implemented inline styles, maybe we can convince them to work on regions
14:45:33 <cyril> ... or Microsoft with Chromium+Edge
14:45:50 <cyril> nigel: anything else on WebVTT?
14:46:41 <cyril> Topic: TPAC Planning
14:47:04 <cyril> nigel: we have a number of sub-parts to that agenda item
14:47:27 <cyril> ... the meeting with the Chinese IG
14:47:43 <cyril> Topic: Request a meeting at TPAC with Chinese IG #60
14:47:44 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/60
14:48:00 <cyril> nigel: I requested this at the proposal of
14:48:27 <cyril> ... Fuchao got back to us and suggested Friday afternoon
14:48:40 <cyril> ... they want us to join because they are a larger group
14:48:53 <cyril> ... Andreas initially suggested Thursday but that got deleted
14:49:21 <cyril> ... this is to discuss Danmaku
14:49:51 <cyril> cyril: Is it ging to be the last session on the Friday afternoon
14:49:57 <cyril> nigel: not clear yet
14:50:17 <cyril> ... the meeting will be in chinese and the essential points will be translated by volunteers
14:50:53 <cyril> cyril: I would prefer if we would wrap our meeting not with a joint meeting
14:50:58 <cyril> nigel: so maybe after lunch
14:51:41 <cyril> ... the action is back to me
14:52:11 <cyril> SUMMARY: the group would like to meet the Chinese IG in the afternoon, preferably not at the end of the day
14:52:26 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
14:52:43 <cyril> gkatsev: this will be my first TPAC and I'm interested in the MEdia WG which is also Thursday and Friday
14:52:49 <cyril> cyril: me too ...
14:53:36 <cyril> nigel: there are clashes with other groups (accessibility, ...)
14:54:05 <cyril> ... it's difficult to schedule the meeting
14:54:14 <cyril> ... I can't resolve your clash Gary
14:54:58 <cyril> Topic: Discussion points for CSS WG at TPAC 2019 #52
14:55:16 <cyril> github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/52
14:56:12 <cyril> nigel: the list as it stands has a bunch of CSS issues and one TTML one at the moment
14:56:27 <cyril> ... the TTML one is about text-combine
14:56:32 <cyril> ... then shearing
14:56:43 <cyril> ... then equivalent of multiRowAlign
14:57:03 <cyril> ... then about background area with fillLineGap
14:57:18 <cyril> ... and for that one there is a proposed solution
14:57:35 <cyril> ... then padding at start and end of line
14:57:42 <cyril> ... but the issue is closed
14:58:21 <cyril> ... and last one is images with layout information, like Apple Pay logo
14:58:38 <cyril> ... I think there is another one about accessibility
14:59:05 <cyril> ... there is a CSS WG issue which concerns making something invisible on a visual presentation but visible to screen readers
14:59:18 <cyril> ... there seem to be quite a few requirement on this
14:59:43 <cyril> ... CSS WG issue 560
14:59:54 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/560 [css-display] create a display property value for visually hiding an element while making it available for AT #560
15:00:42 <cyril> ... and that is connected to an IMSC issue that I raised recently
15:01:09 <cyril> ... to expose burned-in narrative text to a screen reader
15:01:22 <cyril> ... sighted people can see it but we want to put that in a ARIA live region
15:02:17 <cyril> Present+ Pierre, Glenn
15:02:25 <cyril> rrsagent, pointer
15:02:25 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-irc#T15-02-25
15:03:35 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:03:44 <nigel> Regrets- Glenn
15:03:50 <nigel> Regrets+ Glenn_first_hour
15:06:04 <cyril> pal: we also issue 44 from IMSC
15:06:17 <atsushi> present+
15:06:27 <cyril> nigel: it is in the GitHub list
15:06:58 <cyril> nigel: about TPAC planning, I have an email from Alan, one of the CSS WG chairs
15:07:15 <cyril> ... proposing at 9:30 on Tuesday morning
15:07:21 <cyril> ... I'm going to say yes
15:10:27 <cyril> nigel: regarding the M&E IG, they listed 2 topics
15:10:38 <cyril> ... but there are lot more topics we could talk about
15:10:51 <cyril> ... live, karaoke, danmaku, ...
15:11:01 <cyril> ... and we could think about MSE and text tracks
15:11:13 <cyril> ... because MSE only supports audio/video
15:11:44 <cyril> ... those are my suggestions
15:11:53 <cyril> ... but we have a limited amount of time
15:12:09 <cyril> ... are there other topics or prioritization views?
15:12:56 <cyril> cyril: when will the new text track api be discussed
15:13:00 <nigel> -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face_to_face_meeting_during_TPAC_2019#16:00_-_17:00_Timed_Text_Working_Group_joint_meeting M&E IG agenda
15:13:04 <cyril> pal: on wednesday
15:13:32 <cyril> nigel: there is a request for break out sessions and a request for demo
15:14:05 <cyril> ... do we want to raise the text track api with the M&E IG?
15:14:13 <cyril> cyril: no
15:14:34 <cyril> gkatsev: we need to check what is the overlap between the M&E IG, the Media WG and the TTWG
15:15:00 <cyril> nigel: that's exactly the sort of thing that the M&E IG should discuss, I'll ping Chris
15:16:54 <cyril> Topic: TPAC Planning - Topics and schedule
15:17:13 <cyril> nigel: Cyril raised goals at the beginning of this meeting
15:17:30 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:17:35 <nigel> Nigel: Did you have something in mind Cyril?
15:17:46 <nigel> Cyril: We initially wanted heartbeat publications of our spec and we deviated from that.
15:17:56 <nigel> .. We still have a goal to publish regularly so we should aim to publish soon
15:18:13 <nigel> .. TPAC should be the opportunity to really wrap up and work towards publishing as soon as possible.
15:18:21 <nigel> Nigel: Makes sense to me
15:19:13 <nigel> Cyril: Maybe a good goal is to agree to publish FPWDs of the specs after TPAC.
15:19:31 <nigel> Nigel: Yes, there is a publication moratorium around TPAC, but that shouldn't stop us making a resolution.
15:20:06 <cyril> scribe: Cyril
15:20:18 <cyril> nigel: we have a list of topics but an empty schedule
15:20:27 <cyril> ... I want to know if there are other topics not listed
15:20:37 <cyril> ... and if there are any constraints
15:26:05 <cyril> pal: the only constraints I have is that I have to leave at 6pm on Thursday
15:26:13 <cyril> ... I won't be available at all on Friday
15:26:35 <calvaris> I have to leave now! see  you next time (if my agenda allows it)
15:27:54 <cyril> pal: the embedded font feature should really be closed either before TPAC or at TPAC
15:29:13 <cyril> nigel: so we should try to do as much as we can on Thursday so that we can join the other groups on Friday
15:29:20 <cyril> ... we could also move WebVTT on Friday
15:29:43 <cyril> nigel: action on me and gary to come up with an agenda
15:30:24 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/67 Issue for Nigel and Gary
15:30:49 <cyril> nigel: there is an option for demo
15:31:00 <cyril> ... andreas asked for a joint demo from the TTWG
15:32:03 <cyril> ... any question on this demo topic?
15:32:25 <cyril> Topic: Add support for #font w3c/imsc#485
15:32:33 <cyril> github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/485
15:33:23 <cyril> nigel: we resolved to support OTF only
15:33:32 <cyril> ... since then a couple of things have come up
15:33:50 <cyril> ... where to list the supported types in a way that can be referenced
15:34:00 <cyril> ... one idea was to use some sort of feature designation
15:34:06 <cyril> ... another is a registry of type
15:34:31 <cyril> ... if we do the feature designation, the question is where would it be
15:34:41 <cyril> ... I suggested that we could do a module for that
15:34:49 <cyril> glenn: I like that option
15:35:29 <cyril> ... we have already a feature designation for PNG
15:35:38 <cyril> ... in TTML2
15:35:50 <cyril> nigel: we could potentially move that out of TTML2 and put it somewhere else
15:36:02 <cyril> ... it's a feature at the moment not an extension
15:37:34 <cyril> -> https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf, font/otf mime type definition
15:38:26 <cyril> nigel: now that we can pull in media of different types
15:39:02 <cyril> ... one way to constrain what a processor supports is to have a feature designation for that
15:39:27 <cyril> ... it's not core to TTML itself
15:40:29 <cyril> cyril: are we going to define a feature request for all audio codecs?
15:40:45 <cyril> nigel: I was suggesting to do it on requests, not pro-actively
15:40:52 <cyril> ... but we can discuss it
15:41:07 <cyril> pal: my vote is to keep it simple and constrain the list of supported mime types in IMSC
15:41:26 <cyril> ... I don't object to create a module or registry
15:41:38 <cyril> nigel: so just say in IMSC the following formats are supported
15:41:45 <cyril> pal: that makes sense
15:42:01 <cyril> s/that makes sense/yes
15:42:05 <cyril> nigel: that makes sense
15:42:28 <cyril> glenn: even in IMSC you need feature designation that match capabilities
15:43:55 <cyril> ... if you were to add support for OTF to #font feature that would be going beyond what #font defines
15:44:13 <cyril> ... either you stick with what we have today or diverge
15:44:27 <cyril> ... right now all features in TTML or IMSC are attached to feature designations
15:44:53 <cyril> pal: are you saying that the #font feature in TTML2 is purely syntactic support, parsing the font element?
15:45:18 <cyril> glenn: right now it only requires support for the syntax, no requirement for any font decoder
15:46:11 <cyril> pal: I'm happy to not define any extension in IMSC and just say the font format we support
15:46:32 <cyril> ... or to define an extension in IMSC that signals specific font support
15:46:39 <cyril> ... or to define an external module
15:46:47 <nigel> q+ to add an option for a ttp:types element with a ttp:type child (1..*) under profile
15:46:48 <cyril> ... or to define an external registry
15:47:09 <cyril> ... but we need to make a decision
15:47:22 <nigel> ack nigel
15:47:22 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to add an option for a ttp:types element with a ttp:type child (1..*) under profile
15:47:25 <cyril> glenn: in my opinion, the best option is to use feature designation
15:47:56 <cyril> nigel: we could add a new element to the profile element, adding a ttp:types attribute
15:48:41 <cyril> glenn: you're suggesting a new element
15:48:49 <cyril> nigel: yes, following the same pattern we have today
15:49:02 <cyril> glenn: it's worth thinking about it
15:49:17 <cyril> ... in some way it introduces yet another mechanism for defining functional support
15:49:26 <cyril> ... we have feature and extension and we would have a 3rd thing
15:49:36 <cyril> ... but for IMSC there may be shorter options
15:49:58 <cyril> nigel: the easiest path is simply to list it in the IMSC spec
15:50:08 <cyril> cyril: I would favor this option
15:51:19 <cyril> nigel: let's keep discussing that point
15:52:26 <cyril> on the topic of formats, compressing fonts is an important features
15:52:34 <cyril> ... we should allow for WOFF
15:52:40 <cyril> ... I'm proposing to add support for WOFF
15:54:15 <cyril> cyril: my point is that OTF is broad, it includes TTF, CFF, SVG outlines
15:54:27 <cyril> ... and also WOFF has a new version WOFF2
15:54:42 <cyril> pal: I'm happy as long as we can feedback from implementers
15:56:59 <cyril> cyril: is there an option where we do not specify in IMSC and let applications specify it
15:57:07 <cyril> pal: maybe a minimum
15:57:13 <cyril> ... and not preclude other types
16:00:15 <cyril> glenn: we could also mandate support for specific open source fonts
16:03:38 <atsushi> > The deadline for responses is 23:59, Boston time on 2019-09-10.
16:04:32 <cyril> Topic: next meeting
16:04:47 <cyril> nigel: we will not have a meeting next week, our next meeting will be at TPAC
16:05:35 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:05:47 <nigel> Nigel: Thanks everyone, we got through a lot today. See you in Japan! [adjourns meeting]
16:05:50 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:22:06 <nigel> s/MEdia WG /Media WG
16:22:22 <nigel> s/resolve your clash Gary/resolve your clash Gary!
16:24:37 <nigel> s|https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf,|https://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/font/otf
16:25:47 <nigel> s/on the topic of formats, compressing fonts/.. on the topic of formats, compressing fonts
16:25:54 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:27:27 <nigel> i/> The deadline/Topic: TTWG Charter review
16:27:51 <nigel> i/> The deadline/Nigel: Please remind your AC rep to vote. When is the deadline Atsushi?
16:27:53 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:28:25 <nigel> scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:28:30 <nigel> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/05-tt-minutes.html nigel
18:11:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt