IRC log of web-networks on 2019-09-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:10:39 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/04-web-networks-irc
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- 13:26:07 [dom]
- Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-networks-ig/2019Aug/0004.html
- 13:26:15 [dom]
- Chairs: Sudeep, DanD, Song
- 13:26:34 [dom]
- Meeting: Web & Networks IG teleconference
- 13:26:43 [dom]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 13:57:48 [sudeep_]
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- 14:01:00 [dom]
- Present+ Dom, DanD, Sudeep, Song, YajunChen, Xiaowei, Picky
- 14:03:40 [cpn]
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- 14:04:53 [dom]
- Present+ Jonas_Svennebring
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- Sudeep: [reviewing agenda]
- 14:05:40 [dom]
- ... we will present the TPAC agenda on which we're seeking feedback
- 14:06:19 [cpn]
- present+ Chris_Needham
- 14:06:52 [dom]
- ... we will then discuss a use case, with a particular illustration from an Intel team, who will also give a more in-depth presentation during TPAC
- 14:07:36 [dom]
- Topic: TPAC Agenda
- 14:08:06 [dom]
- Dan: TPAC is very close - it's important to focus on the topics we're trying to cover
- 14:08:17 [dom]
- ... we will be meeting on Tuesday from 8:30am to 5pm
- 14:08:43 [dom]
- ... we would start at 8:30 with logistics, intros, some background and concrete references that Dom will be presenting
- 14:09:04 [dom]
- ... then we'll have a break - always great opportunity for informal discussions during TPAC
- 14:09:30 [dom]
- ... then we'll dive into guiding principles for the "hint framework" - going into examples and spending some time analyzing what worked and doesn't
- 14:09:53 [dom]
- ... then Song will cover an update on liaisons
- 14:10:19 [dom]
- ... then lunch, after which we'll get our guest speaker session with an Intel team presenting a more detailed explanation of the solutions they've been working on
- 14:10:34 [dom]
- ... that could form the basis for an API
- 14:10:52 [dom]
- ... after the afternoon break, we have more use cases review - we're looking for input and feedback from participants on how to drive this effectively
- 14:11:31 [dom]
- ... we will have many opportunities to touch upon use cases throughout the day, but we want to take advantage of the F2F to go into more details in these use cases
- 14:13:15 [dom]
- ... we will have IG members, observers - it's a good opportunity for a dialog
- 14:13:16 [dom]
- q+
- 14:13:55 [cpn]
- scribenick: cpn
- 14:14:35 [cpn]
- Dom: We have 50 observers registered, which is a good sign, but unlikely they'll all come. We'd need to take into account the size of the group
- 14:15:28 [cpn]
- Dan: We can use sticky notes to gather ideas for discussion. Then we can combine the ideas, or work from the prepared agenda. We should be open to suggestions from members and observers.
- 14:16:12 [cpn]
- ... It's important to have a bi-directional communication, not just have presentations
- 14:17:00 [dom]
- scribenick: dom
- 14:17:01 [dom]
- cpn: in the Media & Entertainment IG, we've dedicated to a "look-ahead" session for new use cases & requirements
- 14:17:17 [dom]
- ... one of the tools that we will be using is a flipchart to keep track of ideas as they emerge
- 14:17:28 [dom]
- ... inviting people to share their thoughts on unaddressed use cases
- 14:17:52 [dom]
- ... it is a challenge - not everybody has something to contribute, many people will be observing rather than contributing
- 14:18:11 [dom]
- ... in that situation, it's up to the chairs of the group to really to come with your own ideas to seed the conversation
- 14:18:28 [dom]
- Dan: agree that we'll need to stimulate the dialog
- 14:18:52 [dom]
- ... the idea of having sticky notes to keep track of ideas as they come up would be useful
- 14:18:57 [dom]
- ... even if we can't review them all
- 14:19:05 [dom]
- ... we'll have to make sure we have the right logistics
- 14:19:31 [dom]
- ... I really want this to be a two-way communications
- 14:19:41 [dom]
- ... although I expect it will be hard to break the ice
- 14:19:52 [dom]
- Sudeep: assuming we identify new requirements out of this session
- 14:20:12 [dom]
- ... would it make sense to schedule a follow-on breakout session to look at how to addressing that requirement
- 14:20:16 [cpn]
- q+
- 14:20:19 [dom]
- ... q-
- 14:20:21 [dom]
- q-
- 14:20:33 [dom]
- ... to get feedback on what we would have identified
- 14:20:43 [dom]
- cpn: I would strongly recommend that you do that
- 14:20:54 [dom]
- ... I hope that the session grid will have space
- 14:21:04 [dom]
- ... we've done that often with the Media & Entertainment IG
- 14:21:27 [dom]
- Dan: For the Wednesday session, the door is open for ideas
- 14:21:41 [dom]
- ... this year the suggestion for sessions are collected ahead of time
- 14:21:45 [dom]
- ... we could place a stakeholder
- 14:21:57 [cpn]
- q-
- 14:22:16 [dom]
- ... Getting back to the agenda, I think it's worth injecting a 5-10 minutes early in the morning to explain this process
- 14:24:53 [dom]
- Present+ Jon_Devlin
- 14:24:57 [dom]
- q+ songfeng
- 14:25:25 [dom]
- Sudeep: we will have remote participation enabled for TPAC if you can't make it to the meeting
- 14:26:44 [dom]
- DanD: on another note: lunch is a good opportunity for informal discussions
- 14:27:50 [dom]
- Topic: Use case: Network Link Performance Prediction
- 14:28:43 [dom]
- Topic: Liaisons
- 14:28:45 [zkis]
- present+ Zoltan_Kis
- 14:29:20 [dom]
- [Presenting slides: Status in liaison organizations and topics for TPAC]
- 14:29:40 [dom]
- Song: first, some background on existing activity in W3C
- 14:29:58 [dom]
- ... Network information API is defined in the WICG
- 14:30:05 [dom]
- ... last updated last February
- 14:30:26 [dom]
- ... The API enables Web apps to access info about the network status (e.g. wifi, wirless, bluetooth connection)
- 14:30:35 [dom]
- ... Second, WebXR - discussed in the Immersive Web WG
- 14:30:42 [dom]
- ... pretty active ongoing work
- 14:31:28 [dom]
- ... WebRTC is one of the most important WG in the org, nearly done
- 14:31:58 [dom]
- ... Web of Things Architecture, in CR, last modified in May - IoT has strong links to networking
- 14:32:22 [dom]
- ... In terms of candidate items for TPAC
- 14:32:41 [dom]
- ... 5G Network Slicing - network slicing divides networks in multiple virtual networks based on app requirements
- 14:33:40 [dom]
- ... we're trying to establish a liaison with the relevant group
- 14:34:03 [dom]
- ... Edge computing enables integrating network, computing, storage in nodes
- 14:34:13 [dom]
- ... operators have developed their own edge computing APIs
- 14:34:39 [dom]
- ... China Mobile has a Web MEC API proposal with several scenarios
- 14:35:48 [dom]
- ... (face detection, WoT, Edge caching for UHD service)
- 14:36:05 [dom]
- ... it works with MECNodeService to which one can register and then send requests
- 14:36:43 [dom]
- ... Because Edge Computing is pretty important for apps in new networks (e.g. 5G), some operators have defined their own APIs already
- 14:37:26 [dom]
- ... we're looking at liaisons to ETSI & 3GPP who have defined set of APIs (incl location, bandwidth management, radio network)
- 14:38:21 [dom]
- ... Real-time network adoption is another interesting area of interest
- 14:38:31 [dom]
- ... based on mobile throughput guidance information
- 14:39:12 [dom]
- ... Cloud gaming needs further thinking
- 14:39:50 [dom]
- ... Best network selection - how to determine which link to use - related to network slicing
- 14:40:33 [dom]
- dom: will you give a more in-depth presentation on Web MEC?
- 14:40:48 [dom]
- Song: this is still a very early stage proposal
- 14:41:41 [dom]
- ... we're still working on modifying it - once we're done, we will be able to share more
- 14:42:54 [dom]
- Picky: on your slide on MEC - how does this intersect with 5G data plans
- 14:44:25 [dom]
- Song: let's revisit that offline
- 14:44:26 [dom]
- Topic: Use case: Network Link Performance Prediction
- 14:44:37 [dom]
- -> https://github.com/w3c/web-networks/files/3554137/Intel.LPP.-.W3C.Web.n.Networking.IG.r1.0.pdf Network Link Performance Prediction
- 14:44:59 [dom]
- Sudeep: Jonas and Jon are IG participants from Intel
- 14:45:13 [dom]
- ... they've been working on topics that are overlapping with some of our discussions esp around hints
- 14:45:23 [dom]
- ... they'll give us some introduction to their work to stimulate our discussions
- 14:45:30 [dom]
- Jonas: we will be in TPAC
- 14:45:41 [dom]
- ... The work was stimulated by 5G
- 14:46:01 [dom]
- ... 5G brings better performance, but also more variation within networks
- 14:46:50 [dom]
- ... as we're moving towards edge compute, this creates also more variation
- 14:47:01 [dom]
- ... edge can mean many different things which induce many different behaviors
- 14:47:39 [dom]
- ... Networks are "best effort" today - we have been interested in seeing how we can make them more deterministic and to better inform app of their network environment
- 14:48:24 [dom]
- ... We've been investigating network link performance prediction - not in a Web-specific context
- 14:48:52 [dom]
- ... one starting point is that we don't want to control apps - hence the "hints" approach that matched what has been discussed in the IG
- 14:49:02 [dom]
- ... we're looking both at current and future link performance
- 14:49:17 [dom]
- ... along a number of parameters: bandwidth, latency, cell load and more
- 14:49:44 [dom]
- ... a typical example where this is relevant: if you're driving your car, you may going between a macro cell with low load then high load and back to low
- 14:49:57 [dom]
- ... a network-aware app could pre-fetch data to take these expected changes into account
- 14:50:05 [dom]
- ... e.g. in a video streaming context
- 14:50:21 [dom]
- ... the same could be applied to coverage gaps
- 14:50:47 [dom]
- ... We've also looking at the challenge of mmWave which have very small coverage and very high throughput
- 14:50:58 [dom]
- ... there are other cases where this applies, but these are the key areas
- 14:51:13 [dom]
- ... We're making these links prediction as a service on the side
- 14:51:29 [dom]
- ... it's transparent from a client/service perspective, available to both
- 14:51:55 [dom]
- ... the point here is that it should be agnostic to cloud or edge
- 14:52:05 [dom]
- ... we're also not touching the data streams itself
- 14:52:20 [dom]
- ... it would typically deployed in the operators network and then fetched from client or server
- 14:52:50 [dom]
- ... in TPAC we will dive in more details in terms of the predictions are generated, and how they could be exposed in Web apps, in browsers, in servers
- 14:53:10 [dom]
- ... We have a number of use cases that illustrate how the predictions could be used
- 14:53:33 [dom]
- ... A simple case is media streaming - you need to look at the value add across the various network stakeholders
- 14:53:47 [dom]
- ... There is a benefit here to the end user, to the content provider and to the operator
- 14:54:09 [dom]
- ... in media streaming, this means less buffer delays for real-time media
- 14:54:42 [dom]
- ... for non-real time streams, it helps reduce the amount of data transmission in the network
- 14:54:54 [dom]
- ... we will cover these additional use cases in TPAC as well
- 14:55:22 [dom]
- ... We're very interested in getting feedback and reactions
- 14:56:21 [dom]
- dom: very exciting! looking forward to hear more at TPAC
- 14:56:51 [dom]
- sudeep: note relationship to the "smart offline download" use case
- 14:58:50 [dom]
- dom: agreed - the notion of "gap coverage" can be well related to the notion of cost/cell load
- 14:59:26 [dom]
- jonas: we're looking at usage behaviors to inform our research on utilizing this
- 14:59:49 [dom]
- sudeep: there will also be a demo during TPAC?
- 15:00:18 [dom]
- jonas: one keep example is media streaming; next will be cloud gaming which is more driven by server-side prediction
- 15:00:35 [dom]
- ... we will be present a cloud-gaming set up to show the benefits of link prediction
- 15:00:47 [dom]
- ... we will show also media streaming with and without link prediction
- 15:01:06 [dom]
- cpn: where will the demos be?
- 15:01:17 [dom]
- sudeep: there is demo slot on Wednesday
- 15:01:32 [dom]
- cpn: I'll mention it to the Media IG
- 15:02:09 [dom]
- Sudeep: the slides that were presented are available on github - the discussion can continue there
- 15:02:15 [dom]
- ... we will continue this discussion at TPAC
- 15:02:23 [dom]
- ... we will share the Webex details for the meeting there
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- RRSAgent, draft minutes
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- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/04-web-networks-minutes.html dom
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- i/Meeting:/ScribeNick: dom
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