IRC log of silver-conf on 2019-09-03

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22:43:08 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-silver-conf-irc
22:43:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
22:43:10 [Zakim]
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22:43:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference
22:43:12 [trackbot]
Date: 03 September 2019
22:45:22 [jeanne]
agenda+ measures and their rubrics
22:45:22 [jeanne]
agenda+ spreadsheet that tests the different measures
22:46:45 [jeanne]
chair: jeanne
22:56:55 [janina]
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23:03:24 [AngelaAccessForAll]
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23:03:33 [AngelaAccessForAll]
present+
23:04:09 [pkorn_]
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23:04:09 [jeanne]
present+
23:04:17 [pkorn_]
present+
23:05:25 [janina]
present+
23:05:26 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 1
23:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "measures and their rubrics" taken up [from jeanne]
23:05:42 [janina]
scribe: janina
23:06:02 [janina]
jeanne: Took action to list measures we could put in a spread sheet to see how they compare
23:07:13 [jeanne]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MqSvCiPqZzkO09mxz-K7IP-U74dFX8dLeHX1XmFZt4Y/edit# -> list of measures
23:07:27 [janina]
jeanne: Not yet finished
23:08:03 [janina]
jeanne: Trying to identify the various measures we've been discussing
23:09:10 [janina]
jeanne: Mined vpats for SCs
23:09:47 [pkorn_]
q+
23:10:22 [janina]
jeanne: We need to figure out how each measuring approach provides scores
23:10:45 [janina]
jeanne: impact, reach, inclusion of pwds
23:10:57 [janina]
jeanne: and the measurements of investment in a11y
23:12:05 [janina]
jeanne: "spirit" defined as engagement of pwds, and processes to improve products/sites
23:13:06 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
23:13:06 [Zakim]
Present: AngelaAccessForAll, jeanne, pkorn_, janina
23:13:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pkorn_, AngelaAccessForAll, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, trackbot
23:13:58 [janina]
pkorn: Should we describe challenges before we develop scoring?
23:14:30 [janina]
jeanne: Sounds good. Note discussing Issue #3
23:14:43 [janina]
jeanne: End of last week's mtg
23:15:22 [janina]
jeanne: Did the expirimental numbers provide results that reflect what we expect? We did this a year ago, have things changed
23:16:18 [janina]
pkorn: Relates to measures of investment reflects expectation on effort to achieve
23:18:00 [janina]
jeanne: Had research info ... Are you asking independent? Or in the group?
23:18:24 [janina]
pkorn: Thinking it might be useful to describe challenges the SCs pose
23:18:59 [janina]
pkorn: Or do I misunderstand spread sheet intent?
23:19:21 [janina]
jeanne: We were measuring severity, ease of implementation, ease of testing, a few others last year
23:20:15 [janina]
jeanne: ranked according to criteria such as auto testability, requires human eval, etc
23:20:40 [janina]
jeanne: We learned severity didn't work because everything was priority #1 for some pwd group or other
23:21:55 [janina]
jeanne: I have a different idea re "spirit of a11y" but want to fairly represent the proposer first ...
23:22:09 [pkorn_]
q-
23:23:37 [janina]
janina: Think the spirit items have a place somewhere, but not sure how much
23:23:47 [janina]
pkorn: Not sure how it actually fits
23:23:58 [AngelaAccessForAll]
+1 to what you both said
23:24:15 [janina]
jeanne: Agree it's not a thing you can measure
23:24:38 [janina]
pkorn: Also wonder whether it's too early to put scoring values
23:24:55 [janina]
pkorn: Maybe we first need to define the value of these, before grading them
23:25:17 [AngelaAccessForAll]
+1 makes sense to me
23:25:36 [AngelaAccessForAll]
(Apologies; I'm unable to speak right now.)
23:26:11 [AngelaAccessForAll]
Thanks, Janina!
23:26:22 [AngelaAccessForAll]
:-)
23:26:59 [pkorn_]
q+
23:27:04 [janina]
jeanne: Effectiveness had some interest potential -- effectiveness of the method or the technique--how good is the method, now how well implemented
23:27:42 [janina]
jeanne: e.g. some SC better with ARIA than HTML -- or maybe vice versa
23:28:20 [janina]
jeanne: We want to identify best, not just easiest techniques
23:31:39 [janina]
jpkorn: Measuring effectiveness of techniques seems troubling
23:32:15 [janina]
pkorn: Esp if no pre-existing guidance on which is preffered and why; guidance on how and why
23:32:20 [AngelaAccessForAll]
Perhaps we need to be careful in what we prescribe in our techniques documentation?
23:36:26 [janina]
jeanne: Don't think we could do effectiveness in the spread sheet ...
23:36:53 [janina]
jeanne: Customization was the next point ...
23:38:03 [janina]
janina: Asks whether "customization" is what APA is calling "personalization."
23:38:05 [AngelaAccessForAll]
Is customization equal to spirit of accessibility or is it one factor that supports the spirit of accessibility? I would think it's the latter.
23:40:06 [janina]
jeanne: Reading from the doc ... useful when needs conflict; and solutions aren't necessarily on authoring
23:49:00 [janina]
[discussion whether we're identifying anything we would measure on an SC by SC basis]
23:50:32 [janina]
pkorn: Suggesting something a little different ...
23:50:51 [janina]
pkorn: To look at what the challenging SCs are when viewed through a conformance lens
23:51:12 [janina]
pkorn: e.g. what makes SC X easier or more challenging to measure
23:52:06 [janina]
pkorn: quantity, complexity, dynamism of content ...
23:52:33 [janina]
pkorn: issues of scale which are independent of scale, and some exaserbated by scale
23:52:54 [janina]
pkorn: Offering to draft something for the group to consider
23:53:03 [janina]
jeanne: That would be very helpful
23:53:52 [janina]
jeanne: We decided we want to base our approach on data, so providing us data would be very helpful
23:54:19 [janina]
pkorn: Hadn't thought of it as data focus, as opposed to informed from painful experience, but sure
23:54:26 [janina]
jeanne: painful experience is also data
23:54:35 [janina]
pkorn: Not just an opinion out of the blue
23:55:04 [janina]
pkorn: We can talk about what data best supports when we have something to show as a concept
23:55:31 [janina]
jeanne: some of our research data is opinion, but it's froma different background than our wg
23:56:02 [janina]
jeanne: e.g. we talked to lawyers, they want a transparent conformance -- why is this A and this AA -- the judge asks, and they don't have an answer
23:56:26 [janina]
jeanne: So we wanted to get away from the A/AA/AAA valuations