IRC log of me on 2019-09-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:55:31 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-me-irc
- 13:57:48 [tidoust]
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- 13:58:16 [kaz]
- Meeting: Media and Entertainment IG
- 13:59:53 [tidoust]
- present+ Francois_Daoust
- 14:00:09 [kaz]
- present+ Chris_Needham, Kaz_Ashimura, Takahiro_Kumekawa, Barbara_Hochgesang
- 14:00:13 [kaz]
- present+ Garrett_Singer
- 14:01:21 [Barbara_H]
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- 14:01:38 [kaz]
- Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2019Aug/0004.html
- 14:01:42 [GregFreedman]
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- 14:01:58 [kaz]
- present+ Will_Law
- 14:02:10 [kaz]
- present+ Steve_Morris
- 14:02:22 [RobSmith]
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- 14:03:23 [kaz]
- present+ Greg_Feedman
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- 14:04:06 [igarashi]
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- 14:04:09 [kaz]
- cpn: check if it's ok to record the call as usual
- 14:04:09 [kaz]
- (no objection)
- 14:04:34 [kaz]
- (kaz starts recording on WebEx)
- 14:05:04 [nigel]
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- 14:05:16 [kaz]
- topic: Workshop on Web Games - Francois
- 14:05:25 [kaz]
- present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi
- 14:05:33 [kaz]
- Chair: Chris, Igarashi
- 14:05:45 [cpn]
- scribenick: cpn
- 14:06:08 [kaz]
- present+ Kazuhiro_Hoya
- 14:06:11 [cpn]
- Francois: The goal is to report from the workshop in June around web games
- 14:06:31 [cpn]
- ... W3C runs workshops as a way to investigate a new space or problem, as a starting point for further discussion
- 14:06:54 [cpn]
- ... We looked at web games as a whole, how web technology can be used to develop web games to day, and what new technologies could be useful
- 14:07:02 [nigel]
- Present+ Nigel
- 14:07:07 [cpn]
- ... I'll report on the outcomes from the event.
- 14:07:14 [cpn]
- ... There's a published report online
- 14:07:41 [cpn]
- ... I'll skim over the less relevant topics from our group's perspective
- 14:08:06 [cpn]
- ... There are some use cases that are related, some use cases from gaming are also useful from a streaming perspective
- 14:08:40 [cpn]
- ... We had a previous workshop on games in 2011, wanted to check on progress. Lots of new technologies emerged and standardised
- 14:09:13 [cpn]
- ... Web games create new paradigms not in the native world. There's no install, open a URL and start the experience
- 14:09:31 [cpn]
- ... Native games involve possibly large installation for all the assets
- 14:10:03 [cpn]
- ... WebAssembly is very popular, allows cross compilation of games from C++ or Rust into a package that can be run in the browser
- 14:10:18 [cpn]
- ... The interaction with web APIs is an intersting question here.
- 14:10:45 [cpn]
- ... Recent announcements around cloud gaming. The game is run in the cloud on high-end servers with plenty of CPU, GPU, memory power
- 14:11:26 [cpn]
- ... The result is streamed to an end device, can be lower-end. Provided the client can send input events to the cloud, can provide gaming experiences without requiring features on the client
- 14:11:59 [cpn]
- ... New environments such as Facebook Instant games etc, a hosted environment where web technologies can be used
- 14:12:05 [cpn]
- Topic: Threading
- 14:12:45 [cpn]
- Francois: Useful for 3D rendering, but it was highlighted a specific need. When you want to render 3D content, or 3D media rendering, there's a scene graph
- 14:13:19 [cpn]
- ... Before you can send commands to the GPU to render, you need to process the graph in various ways, e.g., frustrum culling. This needs to happen on the CPU not the GPU.
- 14:13:48 [cpn]
- ... It can be parallelised, but hard to do on the web, as Workers use message passing, they can share unstructured memory using SharedArrayBuffer
- 14:14:01 [cpn]
- ... This was removed from browsers after Spectre and Meltdown
- 14:14:12 [cpn]
- ... It's coming back, should be supported by all browsers
- 14:14:25 [kaz]
- present+ Narifumi_Iwamoto
- 14:14:38 [cpn]
- ... Can't share a structured object with the worker, must serialize and then deserialize it
- 14:14:45 [cpn]
- .... Doing that 60 or 100 times per second doesn't work
- 14:15:08 [cpn]
- ... So a way to share structured data across threads is needed. Requires going deep into JavaScript-land, which is a single threaded model
- 14:15:18 [cpn]
- ... It's a need that was pushed by many people
- 14:15:50 [cpn]
- ... Another need is to start a worker via a file. It would be much more useful to be able to start workers using a function that inherits the calling scope
- 14:16:12 [kaz]
- cpn: brief question
- 14:16:18 [kaz]
- ... what was the conclusion from the workshop?
- 14:16:26 [kaz]
- ... design constraints for workers
- 14:16:46 [cpn]
- scribenick: cpn
- 14:16:56 [kaz]
- i/brief/scribenick: kaz/
- 14:17:30 [cpn]
- Francois: I believe it was done this was as it was easier. For a worker to take a function, you need to specify what gets inherited, e.g., shared memory, so it's not as easy as adding a new method to Workers
- 14:17:45 [cpn]
- ... But it's not impossible
- 14:18:24 [cpn]
- ... Another topic discussed was WebAssembly, the main issue that could be improved from a game perspective is calling Web APIs from WASM code is inefficient right now.
- 14:18:55 [cpn]
- ... Consider a game engine that uses C or C++ such as Unity or Unreal Engine for example. It's hard to integrate with web APIs efficiently from the C++ code.
- 14:19:24 [cpn]
- ... Another problem is around debugging. Once your C++ code is compiled to WASM, it's hard to debug the C++ that's running in the browser as WASM.
- 14:19:51 [cpn]
- ... Luke Wagner presented the Web Assembly Bindings document. it's now called the Interface Types proposal. I won't go into details here.
- 14:20:01 [cpn]
- ... This would make calling web APIs more efficient.
- 14:20:25 [cpn]
- ... There's also Dwarf for Web Assembly debugging, using usual toolchains
- 14:20:47 [cpn]
- Topic: 3D rendering
- 14:21:24 [cpn]
- Francois: On the web, this is not on par with native. WebGL is old, misses functions that would improve rendering, and is less performant
- 14:21:59 [cpn]
- ... There are different texture formats supported by chipsets. The WebGPU API provides a common abstraction over different hardware.
- 14:22:23 [cpn]
- ... There's an active CG working on this, will transition to WG. One issue before that can happen is choice of shading language.
- 14:22:31 [kaz]
- [FYI, Francois' slides are available at: https://www.w3.org/2019/Talks/fd-games-workshop/report.html ; I'll move the URL at the top of the minutes later ]
- 14:22:41 [cpn]
- ... Two main contenders, and some disagreement on which to choose, so it's an ongoing discussion.
- 14:23:02 [kaz]
- s/... Two/Francois: Two/
- 14:23:30 [cpn]
- ... A presentation from the Khronos Group on glTF. There's a discussion there on compressed texture transmission format, a common format that can be supported across platforms.
- 14:23:48 [cpn]
- ... This is good news for developers, to avoid having to ship different texture formats for their models.
- 14:24:14 [cpn]
- ... Should there be a 3D scene element on the web? It's been in the air for years, without leading to anything.
- 14:24:34 [cpn]
- ... The workshop helped trigger discussion in the Immersive Web CG on glTF
- 14:25:25 [cpn]
- ... For accesibility of 3D scenes, need semantic information, there's joint work that could happen between Khronos Group and W3C
- 14:26:13 [cpn]
- ... Web games are no-install experience. But still need to load assets before playing. 20% of players give up if there's a 10 megabyte download
- 14:26:25 [cpn]
- ... There's a need to address the loading process differently on the web.
- 14:27:13 [cpn]
- ... Storing assets locally, but restrictions make it hard to store permanently on the device, e.g., high scores, vs a cache for game assets that could be downloaded again if needed
- 14:27:51 [cpn]
- ... Discussion at the workshop suggested not much needs to change for the loading experience. It's more about educating games developers about downloading things in the background, and postponing downloads
- 14:27:58 [igarashi]
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- 14:28:02 [kaz]
- present+ Jonh_Luther, Peter_Thatcher
- 14:28:35 [cpn]
- ... For storage, an idea is to allow multiple packets per origin. A difficulty is how to make the user aware of what's going on, what's permanent and what isn't
- 14:28:53 [cpn]
- Topic: Accessibility
- 14:29:29 [cpn]
- Francois: Games are meant to be challenging, so games are inaccessible by definition in some way. No one recipe to follow for a11y in games.
- 14:29:39 [cpn]
- ... The technique would vary from game to game.
- 14:30:11 [kaz]
- q+ to suggest we think about WoT as a possible tool for accessibility
- 14:30:22 [cpn]
- ... Some questions remain, e.g., how to provide semantic information to assistive technology when there's no DOM, i.e., when using <canvas> which is an opaque set of pixels
- 14:30:52 [cpn]
- ... Problematic when the code is not JavaScript, cross compiled from C++, how to provide the semantic information from C++ code?
- 14:31:46 [cpn]
- Kaz: There's standardisation work on WoT to extend the capability of web applications to devices such as Amazon Alexa, could be of interest
- 14:31:47 [kaz]
- ack k
- 14:31:47 [Zakim]
- kaz, you wanted to suggest we think about WoT as a possible tool for accessibility
- 14:32:37 [cpn]
- Francois: We discussed the devices that people with motor impairment could be using, accessible input devices, what are the consequences for game design?
- 14:33:06 [cpn]
- ... There's an incubation in WICG called the Accessibiltiy Object Model (AOM), it's a way to expose semantic information when there's no DOM
- 14:33:40 [cpn]
- ... Combined with the WebIDL binding proposal, could be a way to integrate with C++ - the two things in combination could be useful to address a11y questions.
- 14:33:41 [kaz]
- q+
- 14:34:08 [cpn]
- ... There are a11y guidelines available, presented by Ian Hamilton and Matthew from The Paciello Group
- 14:34:51 [cpn]
- Kaz: Also, personal and privacy information. It might make sense to have some joint discussion at TPAC on these related topics.
- 14:34:57 [kaz]
- ack k
- 14:35:34 [cpn]
- Francois: Matthew is going to follow up in the APA WG, this is a logical place to discuss
- 14:35:37 [cpn]
- Topic: Audio
- 14:36:13 [cpn]
- Francois: There are lots of C and C++ audio libraries, professional code, used in native games for audio effects etc.
- 14:36:38 [cpn]
- ... This code is hard to port to the web, because the Web Audio model doesn't work well. There's a lack of a low level audio input/output API
- 14:37:21 [cpn]
- ... To support this, need better threading support, and there's a proposal in the Audio CG from Google: Audio Device Client for low level I/O
- 14:37:31 [cpn]
- ... This would help with porting of existing code to the web
- 14:37:39 [cpn]
- Topic: Gamepad support
- 14:38:33 [cpn]
- Francois: The Gamepad API has not made progress recently. Buttons may be exposed differently to the browser, so there's a combinatorial explosion to understand which button was pressed.
- 14:39:24 [cpn]
- ... Controllers have modern features, touch surfaces, light indicators. You cloud make the gamepad blink the lights to indicate which one to use.
- 14:39:49 [cpn]
- ... Also haptics support. These modern features link to the immersive world, there are advanced VR controllers.
- 14:40:18 [cpn]
- ... Want to finalise the first version of the Gamepad API, close the exsting issues, then start work on a v2 API to support the modern features.
- 14:40:31 [cpn]
- Topic: Inputs
- 14:41:05 [cpn]
- Francois: For cloud gaming, need to send inputs to the cloud for rendering. Input events are aligned to rAF for scheduling
- 14:41:47 [cpn]
- ... This isn't suitable for cloud gaming. All input events need to go through the main thread, leads to congestion issues, helpful to process some events in a worker
- 14:42:06 [cpn]
- ... Mouse events are accelerating and in FPS games, it makes it hard to make precise movements
- 14:42:27 [cpn]
- ... There's a Google proposal for Input to Workers and Worklets
- 14:43:00 [cpn]
- ... Also raw events, to get events as soon as possible. Evaluating whether the cost is worth it
- 14:43:09 [cpn]
- ... Also accelerated mouse events
- 14:43:30 [cpn]
- Topic: Streaming
- 14:44:08 [cpn]
- Francois: Problem with WebRTC solution is that you can't fine tune the encoding/decoding parameters, also congestion control
- 14:44:39 [cpn]
- ... Two ideas discussed, WebTransport based on QUIC, a UDP version of websockets. Allows developers to write their own congestion control
- 14:45:18 [cpn]
- ... Incubated in WICG. Also the WebCodecs proposal, not yet in WICG, needs support. This would expose the encoding and decoding capabilities of the browser.
- 14:45:34 [cpn]
- Topic: Hosted apps
- 14:46:03 [cpn]
- Francois: Some APIs might not be available in hosted environemnts, and some APIs are specific to hosted environments
- 14:46:26 [cpn]
- ... Different companies have different hosted environments. Could be beneficial to converge these
- 14:46:41 [cpn]
- Topic: Discoverability and Monetisation
- 14:47:32 [cpn]
- Francois: Easy for things to disappear on the web. Metadata formats, such as schema.org, for game capabilities: categories, input controllers, offline support, what monetization schemes does it implement?
- 14:48:00 [cpn]
- ... Monetization on the web is broader than games. Watching ads to add features to the game
- 14:48:19 [cpn]
- ... Micro-transaction proposal in WICG
- 14:48:41 [cpn]
- Topic: Next steps
- 14:49:25 [cpn]
- Francois: Agreement for further activities, could be a new IG. Could it fit in scope for the M&E IG, maybe as a new TF in the IG?
- 14:49:46 [cpn]
- ... It's a different topic for this IG. Is there enough support for some new activity?
- 14:50:04 [cpn]
- Topic: TPAC breakouts
- 14:50:55 [cpn]
- Francois: There's one on mini-apps, hosted environments. Also WebTransport and WebCodecs, and WebGPU. A 3D HTML element, from someone not at the workshop
- 14:51:04 [cpn]
- ... and the Input for Workers/Worklets
- 14:51:23 [cpn]
- ... The Audio WG will meet, and WebApps WG will talk about the Gamepad API
- 14:51:40 [Barbara_H]
- Latency is a key challenge. What about a discussion at the Networking IG?
- 14:51:56 [kaz]
- q+ to suggest we think about WoT, DID (and possibly DAS) as well for TPAC
- 14:52:11 [RobSmith]
- q+
- 14:52:24 [cpn]
- Barbara: So latency is key. Could discuss at the Web and Networks IG?
- 14:52:43 [cpn]
- Francois: Good point, yes.
- 14:53:38 [cpn]
- Barbara: Is it this group, or another group? We'd need to look at the gaming model segmentation, the needs of a high end dedicated gamer vs casual gamers
- 14:54:24 [cpn]
- ... Dedicated gaming segment will grow, have different expectations. The casual gaming segment is growing. Need to consider from a business perspective
- 14:54:50 [cpn]
- Francois: We struggled to get AAA producers to the workshop
- 14:55:11 [cpn]
- ... The see the web as an important platform, but they're not prioritising it
- 14:55:30 [cpn]
- ... Then there are the indie game developers, more keen on web technology, for reach
- 14:56:16 [cpn]
- Barbara: About machine learning, games will be impacted in the future by this, it's a common theme
- 14:56:36 [cpn]
- ... Another thing to monitor going forward
- 14:57:30 [kaz]
- q?
- 14:57:38 [kaz]
- q- later
- 14:58:00 [cpn]
- Will: WebRTC was passed over in terms of improvements. It has a huge penetration now, allowing FEC or congestion control could be good improvements
- 14:59:46 [cpn]
- Peter: The work on WebCodec and WebTransport originated from WebRTC, to provide more control to web apps
- 15:00:22 [kaz]
- cpn: good topic for TPAC
- 15:00:32 [kaz]
- ... also after TPAC some more discussion
- 15:00:49 [kaz]
- ... we can follow up offline including Web Codec, etc.
- 15:00:57 [kaz]
- i/good/scribenick: kaz/
- 15:01:31 [kaz]
- rob: there is an animation package named Blenda
- 15:01:39 [kaz]
- ... basically for film animation
- 15:01:52 [cpn]
- scribenick: cpn
- 15:01:57 [kaz]
- ... would be great for gaming people to think about that kind of package
- 15:02:29 [cpn]
- Rob: There's an open source animation package called Blender, a great idea they had was to create open projects, films or animations that are community sourced. Could be a good idea to involve the gaming community. It would highlight any weaknesses or problems, get buy-in from the community
- 15:03:22 [kaz]
- s/... would be great for gaming people to think about that kind of package//
- 15:03:28 [kaz]
- s/... basically for film animation//
- 15:03:36 [kaz]
- s/rob: there is an animation package named Blenda//
- 15:03:46 [cpn]
- ... At the end you'd have the system, with examples of how to use it. It would help with the hard-core vs casual argument, which areas it would support well, can you produce a 3D shooter due to latency issues?
- 15:03:57 [cpn]
- ... Would save effort on things that wouldn't work
- 15:03:59 [RobSmith]
- https://cloud.blender.org/open-projects
- 15:04:31 [kaz]
- q?
- 15:04:37 [kaz]
- ack rob
- 15:04:58 [kaz]
- cpn: what would be the supporting from the organization at the workshop?
- 15:05:06 [kaz]
- ... are their enough organizations there?
- 15:05:12 [kaz]
- ... creating a TF, IG, etc.
- 15:05:45 [kaz]
- fd: some of the participants were interested
- 15:06:17 [kaz]
- ... need to find one or two who would drive the discussion
- 15:07:38 [cpn]
- ... I'm talking mainly with people at Facebook, could be a good first company with an incentive to push an activity, no commitment yet
- 15:07:55 [kaz]
- i/I'm/scribenick: cpn/
- 15:08:04 [cpn]
- ... If you're interested to help, please get in touch?
- 15:08:30 [kaz]
- i/what would/scribenick: kaz/
- 15:09:30 [kaz]
- s/from the organization/from the organizations/
- 15:09:33 [cpn]
- ... An IG is harder to create, needs a scope and charter. A TF is more lightweight, is it a good idea to create in the M&E IG. Some of the topics are foreign to this group?
- 15:09:38 [kaz]
- ack k
- 15:09:38 [Zakim]
- kaz, you wanted to suggest we think about WoT, DID (and possibly DAS) as well for TPAC
- 15:10:07 [cpn]
- Kaz: I agree with other comments made here, and want to suggest having joint discussion with WoT, DID, DAS at TPAC
- 15:10:28 [kaz]
- cpn: good opportunity to have discussion
- 15:10:40 [kaz]
- ... having people to lead the activity is the key
- 15:11:03 [kaz]
- ... very happy to participate in the discussion
- 15:11:09 [kaz]
- cpn: makes sense
- 15:11:19 [kaz]
- i/good opportunity/scribenick: kaz/
- 15:11:24 [kaz]
- topic: TPAC f2f
- 15:11:36 [kaz]
- cpn: our meeting will be on Monday, Sep. 16
- 15:11:43 [kaz]
- ... the agenda is taking shape
- 15:11:51 [kaz]
- ... joint meeting with second screen, etc.
- 15:12:19 [kaz]
- ... accessibility on captioning
- 15:12:29 [kaz]
- ... and we have open discussion during afternoon
- 15:12:35 [kaz]
- ... next step for media on web
- 15:12:53 [kaz]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/Face_to_face_meeting_during_TPAC_2019#Agenda_Monday_16_September_2019 TPAC agenda
- 15:13:07 [kaz]
- cpn: good opportunity for the MEIG to look ahead the use cases
- 15:13:17 [kaz]
- ... further development of media on the Web
- 15:13:26 [kaz]
- ... look forward to discussion with you all
- 15:13:46 [kaz]
- ... if you can't make the meeting in person, please join remotely
- 15:13:57 [kaz]
- ... Francois mentioned breakouts on Wednesday
- 15:14:12 [kaz]
- ... planning to have some more on media as well
- 15:14:17 [kaz]
- ... would be a good meeting
- 15:14:29 [kaz]
- ... that's all I wanted to mention
- 15:14:33 [kaz]
- ... anything else?
- 15:14:45 [kaz]
- (none)
- 15:14:47 [tidoust]
- -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019/SessionIdeas#Proposed_sessions Proposed breakout sessions at TPAC
- 15:14:51 [kaz]
- cpn: thanks for joining
- 15:15:09 [kaz]
- ... and thank you for reporting, Francois
- 15:15:33 [kaz]
- kaz: Next call on Oct. 8?
- 15:15:37 [kaz]
- cpn: I'll be away
- 15:15:53 [kaz]
- ... will talk with the co-Chairs
- 15:16:15 [kaz]
- ... also will talk with Peter about the topics
- 15:16:35 [kaz]
- [adjourned]
- 15:16:41 [kaz]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 15:16:47 [kaz]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 15:16:47 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-me-minutes.html kaz
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