IRC log of aria-apg on 2019-09-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:03:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:03:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-aria-apg-irc
18:03:17 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:03:26 [CurtBellew]
CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
18:03:34 [mck]
MEETING: Spetember 3, 2019 Authoring Practices Task Force Telecon
18:03:41 [mck]
CHAIR: Matt King
18:03:45 [MarkMccarthy]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:03:50 [mck]
rrsagent, make log public
18:03:50 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:03:54 [MarkMccarthy]
present+
18:03:59 [mck]
present+ Matt_King
18:04:06 [mck]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-aria-apg-minutes.html mck
18:04:20 [MarkMccarthy]
scribe: MarkMccarthy
18:05:18 [carmacleod]
present+
18:07:16 [Jemma]
present+ Jemma
18:07:21 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-3,-2019-Meeting
18:07:32 [MarkMccarthy]
Agenda link is above
18:08:01 [mck]
Agenda link: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-3%2C-2019-Meeting
18:09:09 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: [going through agenda for the day]
18:09:35 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: any additions? we have some room today
18:09:42 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: Future meeting agendas
18:10:13 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we will have a meeting next week Sept 10, but APG will not meet online on Sept 17. Only at TPAC
18:10:40 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: On Sept 24, there's not really a reason not to have a meeting, just need to make sure agenda etc. is prepared before going to Japan for TPAC
18:11:00 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: if anyone has agenda topics for Sept 24, please submit them
18:11:29 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: hopefully we'll get some of Sarah's things covered by then
18:12:12 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: our meeting in Japan next week will run from about 5p-2a Pacific Time
18:12:25 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: Eastern time, 8p-5a
18:13:03 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: I'll go through other things for ARIA WG on thursday, if there's things people for sure want to dial in for and need flexibility, let us know asap
18:13:17 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: Third Working Draft Milestone
18:13:28 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/10
18:13:36 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: there's a link to the draft [above]
18:13:53 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we're about 50% done with the milestone!
18:14:04 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: looking at the list, jamesn and I did some work on the first thing on the list
18:14:24 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: what's weird is that our changing the HTML structure broke the keyboard listeners
18:14:31 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: what'd you change?
18:14:39 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: i added a group around them
18:14:50 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: basically nested in a list structure, they're grouped now
18:15:09 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: probably looking for specific child nodes, if it's deeper, maybe that's the issue. i can look
18:15:19 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: that'd be good, I can't really see why it'd be an issue
18:15:24 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: okay, what branch?
18:15:29 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: it's at the top of the PR list
18:15:41 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1160
18:15:41 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: I was confused why you wanted it merged into 1.1 master, mck
18:15:55 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we can talk about that separately in an editors call, maybe
18:16:07 [siri]
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18:16:10 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: master is now going to be 1.2 stuff except changelogs etc.
18:16:18 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: so this is a 1.2 issue then, right?
18:16:31 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: yes; we have a 1.1 branch if we need, but i'm pretty sure we're done with that
18:16:35 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: okay
18:16:56 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: i want the editors draft to reflect our recent work, but we can't merge everything into master without messing up some things
18:17:08 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: jongund, it's PR 1160
18:17:10 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: I got it
18:17:18 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: thanks!
18:17:23 [Sarah_Higley]
There's a number of firstElementChild selectors in the menubar JS, guessing that's the root cause: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/blob/master/examples/menubar/menubar-1/js/MenubarLinks.js#L58
18:17:30 [Sarah_Higley]
(also used in menubar-2)
18:17:39 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: carmacleod made a bunch of progress on the next item, hopefully i'll get to it today
18:17:59 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: why's this a dependency for 1.2? this is now merging the changes that were already made?
18:18:16 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: there was something that wasn't consistent - carmacleod can you explain?
18:18:31 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: firstly, the files with _IDL are only in the 1.2 branch, so that's where I had to work
18:18:34 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that's fine
18:18:54 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: the only changes I did were to button_IDL.html and button_IDL.js
18:19:25 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i only took the setting of attrs out of HTML; the elements were created there and set with role and aria-pressed
18:19:33 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: now that's being done in JS
18:19:39 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: I made comments on what I did
18:20:07 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: the other code was there, but I added comments. and I spruced up the comment at the top of the HTML file to say it's simple as possible, etc.
18:20:21 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: and I deleted some things that weren't relevant
18:20:45 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: question for mck - I put aria-hidden=true on the SVG in the mute button. i thought it was better. thoughts?
18:21:16 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: shouldn't that be role=presentation or something? Why hidden? isn't it redundant?
18:21:28 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: it's a child of the button, so should be presentatioal because of that?
18:21:40 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: if it had a text equivalent, it should render, but otherwise...
18:21:52 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: it should be role=none because it's a child?
18:21:58 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: unless it has an equivalent
18:22:09 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: either way you'd want it ignored and non focusable
18:22:16 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: why would it be focusable?
18:22:18 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: IE11
18:22:26 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: IE11 makes SVG focusable?
18:22:29 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: yep! yay...
18:23:03 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so... instead of aria-hidden, wouldn't role=none be better? if it's not being totally ignored ,that's the preferred technique?
18:23:25 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: okay, but isn't it role=none by defualt, because it's a button?
18:23:30 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: it's a link with role=button
18:24:04 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: I can delete aria-hidden if need be
18:24:11 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we should use role=none
18:24:26 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i can try it and see what the screen readers do, but aria-hidden seems to have the desired result
18:24:39 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: otherwise it tries to read the name of the SVG file
18:24:44 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: weird...
18:24:56 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: yeah, tell JAWS and NVDA about it
18:25:14 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so for guidance, maybe let's say it's a last resort technique and shouldn't be overused
18:25:21 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: it can have severe consequences
18:25:56 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: I Feel like we should avoid and minimize the use of aria-hidden when we can, if the group agrees
18:26:00 [MarkMccarthy]
MarkMccarthy: +1
18:26:17 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: well =presentation on an image should hide the image, but... maybe SVG is weird
18:26:19 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: it is
18:26:39 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: would =none or =presentation prevent a screen reader from stepping into the SVG?
18:26:53 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: because of that, I'd prefer aria-hidden
18:27:00 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: to allow traversal for text nodes?
18:27:04 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: yeah
18:27:22 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: hmm. so when we say children presentational is true, is it implicit or explict?
18:27:36 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: if browsers don't base on the role, a browser bug? maybe that's not an APG issue
18:27:45 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: jamesn do you know?
18:27:52 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: it's only an aria role
18:28:01 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so it should still be honored
18:28:04 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i'd think
18:28:11 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: that may not stop IE exposing the SVG
18:28:16 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: true
18:28:36 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: it wasn't IE though, it was CHrome and the others where JAWS was tryign to read the name of the file
18:28:42 [MarkMccarthy]
s/tryign/trying
18:29:03 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: the sublink of the SVG changes from mute to sound, and the screen reader would read the wrong information
18:29:21 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: if it's a JAWS bug, I don't want to hide a bug...
18:29:43 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: should we discuss this as part of _IDL ex or the main button ex? should we change both?
18:29:54 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: if we're discussing it, we need to change both, which I already did
18:30:21 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: i just want to know if role=presentation does nothing. does this group think it's a bug in our code or the screen readers?
18:30:36 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: is it a bug though? role=presentation strips the role, but the other info is still presented
18:30:52 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: in accname calc, it doesn't matter, right bgaraventa?
18:30:59 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: yeah, but this doesn't have text in it
18:31:10 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: is the filename interpreted as text in an SVG?
18:31:50 [MarkMccarthy]
present+ BGaraventa
18:32:11 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: a presentational role in an SVG wouldn't do much because any text inside it would still be exposed
18:32:22 [jamesn]
<svg aria-hidden="true" focusable="false">
18:32:22 [jamesn]
<use xlink:href="images/mute.svg#icon-sound"></use>
18:32:22 [jamesn]
</svg>
18:32:35 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so if there's no textual content, the screen reader doesn't present anything?
18:33:17 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: well, it's a different naming calculation. if something was in a description it'd come through, but if it had a label, it's a probably
18:33:32 [siri]
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18:33:33 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: either way, role=presentation on it shouldn't interfere
18:33:52 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: by the way, this is an SVG child we're talking about. the use href
18:34:03 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: I'm not familiar with that, unfortunately
18:34:37 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: I'm just saying role=presentation or =none on the SVG won't have an effect on the child, whereas aria-hidden kills the whole thing
18:34:50 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so maybe this is a good example to explain -when- to use aria-hidden appropriately
18:35:13 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: like a specific, good use of -hidden. this doesn't promote overuse, but rather is specific to the issue
18:35:31 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: just want to make sure we're providing the best guidance. okay, let's stick with aria-hidden then
18:36:21 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: I'm not sure who's working on the naming spec for some of these things we're talking about, but it's being worked on
18:36:57 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: anything else for third milestone review? [laughs]
18:37:17 [Jemma]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma
18:37:17 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: seems like everything else in there is pretty quiet in there
18:37:48 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: okay cool, this is looking good. we don't necessarily need all of this ready for the WD jamesn
18:38:13 [MarkMccarthy]
jamesn: yep it's good. essentially, group for listbox, meter, row/colindex won't go in
18:38:33 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: suggesting we skip to tooltips if nothing for tab
18:38:37 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: I do
18:38:37 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: Tab carousel example
18:38:53 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: should the tabpanel take focus? right now it does, but it feels like an extra tab stop
18:39:10 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: jongund?
18:39:19 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: that's what the tabpanel design pattern says
18:39:22 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: where?
18:39:38 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: it's optional, when the tabpanel is static and has no interactive content or that content is at the bottom
18:39:40 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: let me look
18:39:50 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: not in the pattern, maybe the example
18:40:00 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: the example has a tab stop on the panel
18:40:18 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: it's in the test cases for tabpanel, but i can change the tests
18:40:23 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: no, i'd rather not
18:40:30 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: only if we all think it's a good idea
18:41:12 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: is there a way to test individual files now? seems I can only test directories
18:41:22 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that's a good question, i'm not sure
18:41:25 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: used to be able
18:41:33 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: fixable if broken, we'll check into it later
18:41:59 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: in any case, tabpanel shouldn't be a required part of the pattern, so not required here. question now is, should the tabpanel be focusable?
18:42:22 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: I didn't have it focusable until I did the tests valerie wrote, where there were errors thrown. then I added the focus
18:42:25 [Sarah_Higley]
@jongund running `ava test/tests/path/to/file.js` isn't working to test a specific file?
18:42:50 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: I would prefer to have a tabindex on the panel, so a screen reader user doesn't miss anything and they can choose how to interact
18:42:59 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that's assuming someone is tabbing though
18:43:37 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: if there's no focusable element inside the panel, i'd prefer to have it so I know I'm starting to interact with it
18:43:45 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: in this case there's links inside all of them etc.
18:44:05 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: but if someone uses this code and there's nothing inside, that might be an issue
18:44:11 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: yeah, there's nothing in the pattern
18:44:15 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: only in the examples
18:44:21 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: sounds like an issue to address
18:44:34 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: we should probably say something in the pattern, either optional or required
18:44:41 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: nothing in the spec either
18:44:47 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i can open an issue
18:44:50 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that'd be great
18:45:01 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: should I take it out? or leave it in?
18:45:30 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we don't want to do stuff here if it's not something good for usability - siri?
18:45:58 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: I wouldn't keep it as optional, i'd prefer always having the tabindex.
18:46:47 [MarkMccarthy]
siri: in my opinion, i'd prefer to have it on the tabpanel
18:47:12 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: speaking as a screen reader, it seems extra to me, but i'll defer to group
18:47:39 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: issue with the slider here, the images are a link, but sometimes they might not be. so, possible you can miss content if you tab through things
18:47:47 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: everyone's different, yeah
18:48:12 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: might see it if you're reviewing, but not tabbing. but if you're tabbing, maybe youre not looking for interactive content
18:48:21 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: i guess the real issue is consistency
18:48:44 [MarkMccarthy]
BGaraventa: I recommend you make it focusable, if there's no interactive elements in it and so people don't miss it
18:48:51 [MarkMccarthy]
s/you make/to make
18:48:59 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i'll open an issue to add that advice to the pattern
18:49:14 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: so it'll be required or optional?
18:49:26 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: probably required, and keep it on this example
18:49:31 [MarkMccarthy]
jongund: yep, planned on it
18:49:36 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: Tooltip conflict
18:50:20 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: in summary - this is about specific language
18:50:54 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: i think the issue is that our language doesn't say anything about mouse hovered on a tooltip; that we don't generally provide mouse guidance in APG patterns
18:51:08 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: is this an actual conflict? should we change the wording? or say it's not an issue?
18:51:35 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: tooltip is REALLY complicated. mouse is integral to using tooltips, mostly, but depends. it's not something I've been easily able to resolve
18:51:55 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: I'd be in favor of adding wording about mouse behavior for tooltips, becasue it's easy to get that wrong
18:52:29 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: across most of WCAG we don't usually have mouse reqs, but for this specific instance, there's issues around pointers etc.
18:52:36 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that's an exception to the norm right?
18:52:38 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: yeah
18:52:59 [Jemma]
git --help
18:53:10 [MarkMccarthy]
github:
18:53:26 [MarkMccarthy]
github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/811
18:54:06 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so what i'm hearing is we want to describe accessibility related pointer requirements in the APG pattern
18:54:08 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i think so
18:54:12 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: yes, definitely
18:54:35 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: the difficulty is how to describe it, certain interactions, etc. but that can be part of another discussion
18:54:50 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: i'd really welcome someone to draft some changes to the pattern in a PR, if someone can
18:55:22 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: I can, i've been writing about tooltips lately. i think there's some stuff about dismissal that is controversial that'd be worth discussing before a PR
18:55:36 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: a draft PR can contain anything, even if it'll go down in flames [laughs]
18:55:38 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: okay
18:55:51 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: or add stuff to the issue before ready for the PR
18:55:58 [MarkMccarthy]
group: thanks Sarah_Higley
18:56:17 [MarkMccarthy]
Sarah_Higley: I planned on opening an issue anyway, so let's just go all in!
18:56:42 [MarkMccarthy]
TOPIC: APG Language for new ARIA feature
18:57:17 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: well jamesn put his name on this, so maybe we'll discuss next time. but a related question for the group
18:57:53 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: we were talking about flagging things about what's new in 1.2, a paragraph etc. something. once a PR is available, we can discuss more
18:58:13 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: but the rabbithole is about how well things are supported, kind of what aria-at is addressing
18:58:25 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: question becomes where to draw the line of what we say and do
18:58:48 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: for instance, the slider role
18:58:54 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: increment and decrement
18:59:06 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: so that's why jamesn said issue 8 was related, known gaps for mobile
18:59:38 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: i was thinking of things like key shortcuts, where Apple explicitly said they weren't supporting it, so do we add something saying so to the APG, etc.
18:59:57 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: and I worry a little about maintainence etc. unless we find a crafty way to automate
19:00:26 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: it's a common question, wonder if anyone has any solutions without creating maintainence problem
19:00:32 [MarkMccarthy]
s/problem/problems
19:01:05 [MarkMccarthy]
carmacleod: i ran into the same issues - not everything works everywhere. where do we stop
19:01:09 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: that's the golden question
19:01:43 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: if we can come up with some criteria... like, if it's in 1.2 it's implemented in 2 browsers, etc. but that leaves a lot of room for lack of adequate support
19:02:28 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: unless some support gap is blocked, then i'd think that's something we don't want to mention. but if there are major blockers we know about and when they're being worked on, that could be helpful
19:02:40 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: but then i wouldn't want people to assume that everything else is supported
19:03:53 [MarkMccarthy]
Jemma: Korea's certified accessibility dev group is asking the same questions, so like a survey or something may be useful. this is a global, complicated, problem
19:04:02 [MarkMccarthy]
mck: well, more fuel for the aria-at fire I suppose
19:04:29 [Jemma]
s/so like a survey or something may be useful/ according to the survey I did
19:04:58 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, who is here
19:04:58 [Zakim]
MarkMccarthy, you need to end that query with '?'
19:05:01 [MarkMccarthy]
zakim, who is here?
19:05:01 [Zakim]
Present: jongund, CurtBellew, MarkMccarthy, Matt_King, carmacleod, Jemma, BGaraventa
19:05:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see siri, CurtBellew, RRSAgent, Zakim, mck, Jemma, jongund, Sarah_Higley, carmacleod, MarkMccarthy, MichaelC, github-bot, jamesn, yatil-away, ZoeBijl, trackbot
19:05:18 [MarkMccarthy]
present+ Scott_V
19:05:34 [MarkMccarthy]
present+ Siri
19:05:39 [Jemma]
regret+ ZoeBijl
19:06:04 [MarkMccarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:06:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMccarthy
19:10:31 [MarkMccarthy]
s/speaking as a screen reader/speaking as a screen reader user
19:11:32 [MarkMccarthy]
s/CHrome/Chrome
19:11:48 [MarkMccarthy]
s/defualt/default
19:11:55 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/960
19:12:09 [MarkMccarthy]
s/presentatioal/presentational
19:12:55 [Jemma]
we just talking about the teststing
19:13:10 [Jemma]
s/teststing/testing
19:13:18 [MarkMccarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:13:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMccarthy
21:05:36 [Zakim]
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