IRC log of ag on 2019-09-03

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14:31:19 [RRSAgent]
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14:31:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-ag-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
14:31:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ag
14:31:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:31:23 [trackbot]
Date: 03 September 2019
14:31:30 [alastairc]
agenda?
14:31:58 [alastairc]
agenda+ Charter news | https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2019/charter.html
14:32:37 [alastairc]
agenda+ TPAC agenda review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019
14:33:13 [alastairc]
agenda+ WCAG 2.1 Techniques and Understanding survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/
14:33:49 [alastairc]
agenda+ WCAG 2.2 SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22reviews/
14:33:52 [alastairc]
agenda?
14:50:02 [laura]
laura has joined #ag
14:52:15 [alastairc]
regrets: Rachael
14:56:51 [bruce_bailey]
bruce_bailey has joined #ag
14:57:14 [alastairc]
regrets+ Jake
14:57:58 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #ag
14:59:41 [stevelee]
stevelee has joined #ag
15:00:35 [bruce_bailey]
q+ to ask about WBS emailing responses now?
15:00:43 [AWK]
AWK has joined #ag
15:01:33 [stevelee]
present+
15:02:14 [MichaelC]
present+
15:02:27 [bruce_bailey]
ack me
15:02:27 [Zakim]
bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about WBS emailing responses now?
15:03:59 [alastairc]
agenda?
15:04:04 [laura]
present+ Laura
15:04:05 [Detlev]
present+
15:04:30 [bruce_bailey]
present+
15:04:43 [laura]
scribe: Laura
15:05:01 [Raf]
Raf has joined #ag
15:05:18 [johnkirkwood]
present+
15:05:22 [Raf]
present+
15:05:26 [alastairc]
present+
15:05:38 [alastairc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:38 [Zakim]
Present: stevelee, MichaelC, Laura, Detlev, bruce_bailey, johnkirkwood, Raf, alastairc
15:06:15 [david_macdonald]
david_macdonald has joined #ag
15:06:22 [david_macdonald]
present+
15:07:01 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:07:01 [Zakim]
Present: stevelee, MichaelC, Laura, Detlev, bruce_bailey, johnkirkwood, Raf, alastairc, david_macdonald
15:07:05 [alastairc]
zakim, take up item 1
15:07:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Charter news | https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2019/charter.html" taken up [from alastairc]
15:07:08 [AWK]
+AWK
15:07:46 [laura]
AC: We have an updated charter.
15:07:57 [laura]
MC: finished a call from Judy.
15:08:04 [AWK]
AC: But not approved by AC yet
15:08:13 [alastairc]
https://raw.githack.com/w3c/wcag/charter-2019/charter.html
15:08:39 [laura]
… moved a sentence from silver.
15:09:15 [laura]
MC: from deiverable to scope.
15:09:43 [laura]
… Judy is tryi g to closes out some issues.
15:10:08 [laura]
… Plan is it will go to advisory Council today.
15:10:43 [laura]
AC: Ohter than, not not much has changed with it.
15:10:52 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
15:10:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "TPAC agenda review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019" taken up [from alastairc]
15:11:20 [laura]
AC: a bit rough at the moment.
15:11:44 [laura]
… Morning on group dynamics.
15:12:11 [laura]
… how we should be behaving on calls etc.
15:12:29 [laura]
… look though WCAG 2.2 Work
15:12:45 [laura]
… Afternoon Silver
15:12:58 [laura]
… Friday will be silver.
15:12:58 [AWK]
q+ to speak to 2.1 techniques
15:13:10 [AWK]
ack AWK
15:13:10 [Zakim]
AWK, you wanted to speak to 2.1 techniques
15:13:14 [laura]
… any comments?
15:13:50 [laura]
awk: small number of techniques. Would love to get them done before tpac.
15:14:03 [laura]
… but if not we will have to work on them there.
15:14:41 [laura]
David: for dialing in. 9-5 Japan time?
15:14:47 [laura]
AC: yes.
15:15:35 [laura]
AC: assuming Web X. won’t know about qualituy until the day.
15:16:02 [AWK]
https://www.w3.org/2019/09/TPAC/schedule.html#Thursday
15:17:12 [laura]
awk: 8:30 start Tokyo time.
15:17:25 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
15:17:25 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "WCAG 2.1 Techniques and Understanding survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/" taken up [from alastairc]
15:17:55 [laura]
TOPIC: Adding exceptions to F40, F41, F54, F58, and (new) F95
15:18:24 [bruce_bailey]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/results#xq20
15:18:49 [laura]
MC: when adding failures checking for exceptios on the procedure.
15:19:26 [laura]
… awk check them and this PR addresses them.
15:19:42 [laura]
awk: added language to adress them.
15:20:04 [bruce_bailey]
s/MC: when adding failures checking for exceptios/AC: when adding failures checking for exceptions
15:20:28 [laura]
… made thingd more consistent.
15:21:20 [laura]
s/thingd/things/
15:21:46 [laura]
MG: ignore my commnet on the survey
15:22:26 [bruce_bailey]
q+ to ask where to see MG comments?
15:22:49 [alastairc]
ack b
15:22:49 [Zakim]
bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask where to see MG comments?
15:23:28 [bruce_bailey]
survey refresh worked now
15:24:49 [laura]
… does meta in latest HTML spec specify number of seconds?
15:25:49 [laura]
MC: A redirect that doesn't do it for 10 hours seems nonsensical
15:26:21 [laura]
s/MC/MG/
15:26:47 [laura]
MG: going to be painful.
15:26:58 [laura]
awk: doesn’t have to display it.
15:28:17 [laura]
AC: looks like a number is required if it is a refresh…maybe not.
15:28:59 [laura]
MC: can live with it. if somebody checks before publication.
15:29:19 [laura]
s/MC/MG/
15:29:24 [alastairc]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/meta#attr-http-equiv
15:29:41 [alastairc]
"The number of seconds until the page should be reloaded - only if the content attribute contains a positive integer."
15:29:56 [laura]
awK: with chrome content =0
15:30:11 [laura]
… should be okay.
15:31:40 [laura]
AC: maybe adjust fiest step of the procedure.
15:31:51 [AWK]
https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-author-20110809/the-meta-element.html#attr-meta-content
15:31:56 [laura]
s/fiest/first/
15:32:23 [laura]
awk: spec says it includes 0.
15:32:38 [laura]
… beter ways to due it but it doesn’t fail.
15:32:54 [alastairc]
s/beter/better
15:34:14 [laura]
AC: slight adjustment to the title?
15:34:37 [laura]
MG: title has to do with 95.
15:35:20 [laura]
RESOLVE: Pull Request #879.
15:35:49 [laura]
RESOLUTION: Accept Pull Request #879.
15:36:17 [laura]
TOPIIC: Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted
15:36:20 [alastairc]
http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-clipping/techniques/failures/text-spacing-clipping
15:36:35 [laura]
TOPIC: Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted
15:37:20 [mbgower]
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15:37:34 [bruce_bailey]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/AGWG_T_U_Aug2019/results#xq21
15:37:39 [mbgower]
present+
15:38:06 [laura]
AC: Laura’s comment Suggest not calling out "Stylus" in the procedure.
15:38:42 [laura]
AC: Suggest: "In general, this failure occurs when text is presented in a size-constrained block which does not expand if the size of the content increases."
15:40:14 [AWK]
q+ to ask about pre vs code
15:40:21 [laura]
AC: Need to confirm (with MichaelC) if the CSS would get through the build process. If not, the examples would need to be replaced by images.
15:40:28 [laura]
MC: No need.
15:40:58 [laura]
AC: some minor edits.
15:41:42 [david_macdonald]
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stylus/clngdbkpkpeebahjckkjfobafhncgmne?hl=en
15:42:08 [laura]
MG: examples don’t render for me.
15:42:22 [laura]
BB: I had same problem.
15:42:42 [laura]
MG: maybe use images.
15:42:54 [laura]
awk: do we need the working example?
15:43:26 [laura]
david: got code from theother example.
15:45:09 [laura]
David: use images?
15:45:18 [laura]
AC: good idea.
15:46:01 [david_macdonald]
https://www.davidmacd.com/WCAG/fail-1.4.12-a.html
15:46:13 [johnkirkwood]
due to a work issue I will need to drop off and cannot scribe the second half sorry
15:48:04 [laura]
(discussion of examples)
15:49:17 [laura]
AC: anddrew had a comment regarding procedure that has been addressed.
15:49:45 [laura]
… took care of Bruce’s and MGs commnets.
15:50:20 [laura]
MG: In procedure "with the maximum values". I'd recommend removing the work 'maximum'
15:50:32 [laura]
… Step 2 of procedure: "Check if there are any content is clipped, obscured, or has any loss of content due..." should be "Check if any content is clipped, obscured or lost due..."
15:51:04 [AWK]
http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-clipping/techniques/failures/text-spacing-clipping
15:52:02 [laura]
MG: max can be a lot more.
15:52:33 [mbgower]
Check if any content is clipped,g obscured or lost due
15:52:57 [alastairc]
"2. Override the CSS on the page using a user style sheet or a browser plugin with the values listed in the success criteria:"
15:59:23 [laura]
JK: layout problem.
15:59:33 [laura]
AC: yes it should do that.
15:59:58 [laura]
David: leave it as is for now?
16:00:18 [laura]
AC: can live with that.
16:00:29 [Detlev]
+1
16:01:53 [laura]
RESOLUTION: Accept 881 Failure of Success Criteria 1.4.12 due to clipped or overlapped content when text spacing is adjusted
16:03:17 [jon_avila]
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16:03:23 [jon_avila]
present+jon_avila
16:03:39 [alastairc]
TOPIC: Failure due to preventing user from overriding text spacing
16:03:41 [alastairc]
http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/tech-fail-text-spacing-not-allowed/techniques/failures/text-spacing-not-allowed
16:04:20 [alastairc]
scribe:jon_avila
16:04:27 [jon_avila]
Alastair: not sure this is entirely a failure.
16:04:53 [jon_avila]
DavidM: not sure of a way to override.
16:05:50 [jon_avila]
Q?
16:05:59 [jon_avila]
q+
16:06:00 [Detlev]
I find it confusing
16:06:07 [AWK]
q-
16:06:09 [alastairc]
ack jo
16:07:08 [Detlev]
q+
16:07:29 [alastairc]
ack det
16:08:13 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Jake found a way to beat it with bookmarklets
16:08:44 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Boostrap has some help classes. Uses important, etc.
16:08:44 [jon_avila]
q+
16:08:56 [alastairc]
ack jo
16:11:38 [jon_avila]
Alastair: propose we put this on until we discover anything that would fail.
16:12:04 [jon_avila]
Alastair: does anyone else take it up and test things or just let this stand unpublished at the moment? We have another failure for this SC.
16:12:36 [laura]
happy to let it go for now
16:12:46 [jon_avila]
awk: wanted to thank David for working on these as it gets 25% done to cover remaining 2.1 techniques.
16:12:56 [AWK]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15idlBl1qQTNr2SIi4Drzk1Q1vnWAi5L26GCCv6mjD2g/edit#gid=2133852864
16:13:09 [jon_avila]
Alastair: text spacing now has failure -- others are identify input purpose
16:13:25 [jon_avila]
awk: Marc Johlic and John Foliot both have one
16:13:55 [jon_avila]
Alastair: pointer gestures and motion actuation are the other 2.
16:14:07 [alastairc]
zakim, take up next item
16:14:07 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "WCAG 2.2 SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22reviews/" taken up [from alastairc]
16:14:24 [alastairc]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22reviews/results
16:14:58 [jon_avila]
Alastair: leading up TPAC we have a few WCAG 2.2 criteria. Ones in survey are pretty much the last ones in the list that have not had an initial review. Quite a few have been through a review and have been updated.
16:15:23 [jon_avila]
TOPIC: Dragging
16:15:31 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LaVX-RTaLQL0tN4G3NhOTlmj16swt0VzC7ssaAjqIwg/edit#heading=h.mntlv4jvrc29
16:16:38 [laura]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-ag-minutes.html laura
16:16:39 [jon_avila]
alastair: concerns of mine are around developers may say dragging is on the edge of an essential way of doing it. Concern was around where a gesture is dragging.
16:17:38 [Detlev]
q+
16:17:45 [jon_avila]
Alastair: our procedure might be to make sure text is understandable and essentially if we can't think of scenarios and spend some time looking for when this is problematic or unreasonable maybe it would be good thing to put up for wider review for other stakeholders and developers to come up with examples.
16:17:46 [alastairc]
ack de
16:18:39 [laura]
s/advisory Council/Advisory Council/
16:19:12 [jon_avila]
detlev: The situation of dragging it is straight forward like slider -- it would be easy to add step by step or there is a way to move list items up or down. But there are other cases where there is free form and several containers on page and you could pick up any item in any other container and it gets akward and nasty. You'd have to have separate interface.
16:19:34 [jon_avila]
detlev: you'd need to separate tricky interface from which are easy.
16:19:35 [jon_avila]
q+
16:19:44 [alastairc]
ack jo
16:19:47 [laura]
s/tryi g to closes /tryig to close /
16:20:13 [laura]
s/deiverable /deliverable /
16:20:18 [alastairc]
SC text: "For all functionality that uses a dragging motion for operation, an alternative mode of activation exists that can be operated by a single pointer without lateral movement, unless dragging is essential."
16:20:49 [laura]
s/Ohter than, not /Other than that not /
16:20:59 [jon_avila]
detlev: keyboard interface access avoids adding visual items for moving -- so it's a really different type of thing. Things are more complicated and burden.
16:21:20 [bruce_bailey]
bruce_bailey has joined #ag
16:21:23 [laura]
s/qualituy /quality /
16:21:44 [jon_avila]
Alastair: dragging boxes example was keyboard accessible -- but adding another layer of tapping would complicate it.
16:21:51 [laura]
s/adress/address/
16:22:03 [alastairc]
TOPIC: Do not rely on user memory
16:22:10 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e46eqQnVYqdSyqo29pyJoY1QynRH9v95YW8soTTbfsU/edit
16:22:15 [laura]
s/commnet /comment /
16:22:42 [jon_avila]
Alastair: purpose is to not have to remember things from a stepped process.
16:22:48 [laura]
s/to due /to do /
16:22:52 [alastairc]
SC text: "Information needed later on in activities that require sequential input should be stored, or displayed, as the user proceeds through required tasks. Similarly, contents that are labeled with instructions, and/or sample text, should visibly display that information at all times."
16:23:27 [laura]
s/theother /the other /
16:23:39 [jon_avila]
Alastair: David F. has made a good start. This is up for review. Please help review and we will bring it forward for general group review next week anyway.
16:23:54 [laura]
s/anddrew /Andrew /
16:24:28 [laura]
s/commnets /comments /
16:24:32 [jon_avila]
Bruce: this looks like it's following Silver style guide -- not looking like SC. Looks like a description.
16:24:54 [laura]
s/clipped,g /clipped /
16:25:07 [jon_avila]
Alastair: David is new at this and looking for help in translation and wants to work from someone from rest of the group. 1 or 2 people from COGA working with the working group.
16:25:29 [jon_avila]
Bruce: looks like we are just missing little step.
16:25:49 [laura]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-ag-minutes.html laura
16:25:50 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Also in survey. Have a look over the next week and think of some way to translate top description into suitable WCAG 2.2 success criteria.
16:25:52 [alastairc]
TOPIC: Orientation (Enhanced)
16:26:04 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NEDLUWt_VFKtdHhcgm4j-ssWguSGeY8fhdSxm_41WzU/edit
16:26:32 [david_macdonald]
+q
16:26:45 [alastairc]
ack da
16:26:48 [jon_avila]
Alastair: current orientation is "don't block orientation" this is "All functionality and operation is available". Jake has put this in as AAA.
16:27:35 [jon_avila]
DavidM: Suggest at AAA. incredible amount of extra testing.
16:28:22 [jon_avila]
Alastair: don't have official place to put these. Some have editable permissions and some you have to request.
16:29:13 [alastairc]
TOPIC: Affordances
16:29:35 [jon_avila]
Alastair: last one survey is the most recent. Potential affordance success criteria.
16:29:44 [alastairc]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WhZAbswvPHs7A3stfqM_ATsaBHPeGbHtARcmaKMck1U/
16:30:21 [jon_avila]
DavidM: genesis of this is that we needed someone to write it up. The COGA team jumped on it in a positive way. Have been going back and forth are active including Rachael.
16:31:24 [jon_avila]
DavidM: Agree with Detlev that it looks solid but there are many ways it can be recognied. In order to make it work we'd need to make a definition for Affordance and we'd have to look at exception areas. For example, may be no need for visual boundary for hit area.
16:32:11 [jon_avila]
DavidM: personal feeling is that we could do it if we are careful with definition and exceptions. Basically now anything that is interactive we are asking for hit area to be identified and there is visible marking identifying it and 3:1 contrast ratio.
16:32:44 [jon_avila]
DavidM: Better to throw it wide first and then tighten up rather than having it to narrow when first proposing.
16:33:32 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Area of overlap with non-text contrast as it overlaps low vision and COGA. Kept that to not add design elements but making sure there are elements that do have contrast. Affordance goes beyond that to make it unmistakable which things are controls.
16:34:03 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Would try avoid word affordance as it's been abused in UX community and will start arguments. It is also over used.
16:34:17 [mbgower]
I suggest "Visual indicator"
16:34:30 [bruce_bailey]
q+ to ask why "visual indication" does not work
16:34:56 [alastairc]
ack br
16:34:56 [Zakim]
bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask why "visual indication" does not work
16:34:58 [jon_avila]
DavidM: Could be something other like hit area or strengthen the existing success criteria on contrast.
16:35:24 [jon_avila]
Bruce: Could it be said for each interactive component with a visual indication?
16:36:07 [jon_avila]
DavidM: a visual indication seems like a definition of affordance
16:36:45 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Visual indicator could be used and would mean that we would not need to define Affordance. Will try and write up thoughts next week.
16:37:20 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Useful to understand Google research on what other things are visual indicators.
16:37:36 [mbgower]
q+ to say maybe we can focus on 'indicators other than text'
16:38:01 [jon_avila]
Alastair: need to be specific on what does and doesn't count such as visual spacing. Also need to consider mechanism for groups of controls. For example, whole group might have indicator but each control might not.
16:38:08 [alastairc]
ack mb
16:38:08 [Zakim]
mbgower, you wanted to say maybe we can focus on 'indicators other than text'
16:38:24 [jon_avila]
MikeG: Focus on more visual indication than just text. Could be underline.
16:38:25 [jon_avila]
q+
16:39:06 [jon_avila]
MikeG: use of whitespace and visual affordance below 3:1 that could be brought in. Pivot point might be you can't just have text.
16:39:08 [alastairc]
ack jo
16:39:28 [alastairc]
Jon: Agree, spacing can change, reflow, text alone is not enough.
16:40:19 [jon_avila]
Alastair: come back to these next week. Useful for David to have feedback.
16:40:46 [mbgower]
q+ on another toipic
16:40:50 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Useful to work on even if it's not addressed in WCAG 2.2 as it will be relevant for Silver.
16:40:52 [alastairc]
ack mb
16:40:52 [Zakim]
mbgower, you wanted to comment on another toipic
16:41:32 [jon_avila]
MikeG: Procedure questions. Now that 2.1 is close to be populated with techniques. Having people in org pick up techniques. Hard to explain to folks how this happens. For example, we are showing up with latest editors draft from August 9.
16:42:25 [jon_avila]
MikeG: If one assumes that each time the new information is refreshed in an editors draft people assume there are not been other updates. For example, failure technique for status messages when in last week - but there is no link to that and they are not showing up in techniques for 2.1
16:42:29 [jon_avila]
awk: that one has not been published yet.
16:42:44 [alastairc]
Change log? https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/#changelog
16:43:00 [jon_avila]
awk: Michael will publish.
16:43:16 [jon_avila]
MikeG: worried about stuff getting lost and it may be difficult to tell status at a glance.
16:43:38 [jon_avila]
awk: Intent is to do this every Friday. Sometimes that doesn't happen. The editors draft always have what was accepted by the working group.
16:44:02 [jon_avila]
AWK: For it to be official it has to be published on the WAI WCAG 2.2 techniques directory. That should happen every Friday but requires some manual steps.
16:44:47 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Updating understanding document by linking through to the technique should happen as it won't show up. But some times the change log is missed.
16:45:25 [AWK]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/881
16:45:40 [jon_avila]
Alastair: A link needs a number. We don't give it a number until it's ready to publish. Andrew or I will update understanding document. Those links build the techniques listing.
16:45:54 [jon_avila]
AWK: 881 was done but I did not update the change log.
16:46:33 [jon_avila]
Alastair: Change log is best bet but we do need to make sure it's updated. Need to talk to Michael about some 404 errors as it's adding an extra slash techniques.
16:47:23 [jon_avila]
Alastair: any other questions or comments?
16:47:43 [david_macdonald]
zakim, who's here
16:47:43 [Zakim]
david_macdonald, you need to end that query with '?'
16:47:44 [jon_avila]
Alastair: See you next week. Make sure to present plus. Bye
16:47:49 [laura]
thanks. bye.
16:47:59 [david_macdonald]
Present+
16:48:01 [alastairc]
zakim, whos on the phone?
16:48:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, alastairc.
16:48:07 [alastairc]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:48:07 [Zakim]
Present: stevelee, MichaelC, Laura, Detlev, bruce_bailey, johnkirkwood, Raf, alastairc, david_macdonald, AWK, mbgower, jon_avila
16:48:19 [alastairc]
trackbot end meeting
16:48:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:48:19 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been stevelee, MichaelC, Laura, Detlev, bruce_bailey, johnkirkwood, Raf, alastairc, david_macdonald, AWK, mbgower, jon_avila
16:48:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:48:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/09/03-ag-minutes.html trackbot
16:48:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:48:28 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items