15:00:39 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:39 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-irc 15:00:41 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:00:41 Zakim has joined #tt 15:00:43 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:43 Date: 15 August 2019 15:00:50 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/55 15:00:55 Chair: Nigel 15:01:03 Present: Cyril, Glenn 15:01:33 nigel has joined #tt 15:02:03 nigel has changed the topic to: TTWG weekly webex. Today 1500 UTC. Agenda for 2019-08-15: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/55 15:03:30 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/55 15:03:31 Present+ Nigel 15:03:50 rrsagent, pointer 15:03:50 See https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-irc#T15-03-50 15:04:02 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-irc 15:05:14 Regrets: Andreas, Atushi, Gary 15:05:23 s/Atushi/Atsushi/ 15:05:49 Topic: This meeting 15:06:00 nigel: we are very few 15:06:13 ... I pull out a couple of substantive issues for TTML2 15:06:17 ... Test work 15:06:30 ... TTML Live extension module draft got pushed a couple of days ago 15:06:37 ... AOB: Charter update 15:07:03 ... any AOB? 15:07:26 Topic: TTML2 issues 15:07:32 Topic: Add a syntactic shortcut for an implied audio element. ttml2#1013 15:07:37 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1013 15:08:30 nigel: I assume Glenn that there is nothing to do except implement it editorially 15:08:42 glenn: I marked it substantive because ... 15:09:04 Present+ Pierre 15:09:18 ... it's asking for a default behavior that is not currently the case 15:09:40 nigel: it's implemented in one place at least as requested 15:09:53 ... but the spec change is probably substantive, I agree 15:10:13 pal has joined #tt 15:10:35 glenn: you're asking that if no src is present, it default to speech 15:11:02 ..,. and even if there is no audio 15:11:10 nigel: when speak is used 15:11:38 glenn: you could have a top level body element with an audio child 15:13:07 nigel: if you add in an audio element referring to the speech at the body level, you can't independently control the gain of the audio programme down in the hierarchy 15:13:22 ... that's a common use case, duck the programme audio but not the speech 15:13:41 ... you need to bring the speech synthesis further in the document tree 15:13:47 ... but it becomes very verbose 15:14:05 glenn: if you wanted to alter the gain on a leaf span, with speak=normal 15:14:31 ... could you not put gain on that span and it would control the gain of what got contributed and picked up at the high level 15:14:42 nigel: no it would control the gain of everything mixed in 15:14:52 ... not the differential gain 15:15:06 glenn: I think to study it more and start implementing a PR 15:15:17 ... I agree that right now it's not concretely defined 15:15:47 ... given the minimum implementations out there, if you have one implementation that does that, it is probably the right way to go 15:15:51 nigel: we may have tests for that 15:16:05 glenn: you contributed those audio tests 15:16:09 nigel: yes 15:16:20 ... I'll check 15:16:56 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/blob/master/presentation/valid/ttml2-prstn-audio-speak-on-span.xml ttml2-tests/presentation/valid/ttml2-prstn-audio-speak-on-span.xml test 15:17:13 nigel: this one does not contain audio 15:17:23 ... and that test passed in our implementation, it did speak it 15:17:34 ... the test matches what I'm asking to be specified now 15:17:44 glenn: I'll add that to my work list 15:18:15 Topic: Constrain use of @type on data element for reference data embeddings. ttml2#1022 15:18:32 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1022 15:18:55 nigel: raised by Glenn initially, edited by me 15:19:35 ... I thought this was merged 15:19:53 glenn: I'm not sure if the constraint on the use of type has been 15:20:01 ... it may be that there is no further action 15:20:05 ... I need to check 15:20:11 ... I'll post a PR 15:20:19 ... if needed 15:20:43 nigel: can you add details in the issue about what was merged already 15:20:46 glenn: yes 15:21:02 github-bot, end topic 15:22:05 Topic: TTML1 tests 15:22:22 nigel: there was an issue 1, to add a readme and populate the repo 15:22:34 ... glenn suggested to add TTV tests 15:22:47 ... in the context that these tests are not CR tests 15:23:03 ... glenn did and you cannot identify their source 15:23:15 ... there is a comment regarding pending tests waiting approval 15:23:27 ... there are lots of validation and presentation tests, a script as well 15:23:42 glenn: basically, I used the same structure that we have in the TTML2 test repository 15:23:48 ... I tweaked the readme file a bit 15:23:56 ... but it's the same structure and convention 15:24:04 ... the tests themselves don't identify the source 15:24:10 ... use the appropriate license 15:24:29 ... the next thing I need to do is take that test from IMSC on region timing test 15:24:34 ... and put that in using the same conventions 15:24:41 ... it's on my list 15:24:50 ... I want to review the original test suite 15:25:01 ... to make sure that these tests include the same content 15:25:17 ... since we did not have validation test concept in TTML1 initially 15:25:32 ... there are about 300 tests that I added, coming from TTV and TTPE 15:25:58 nigel: I agree we need to check that the TTML1 CR initial tests are in 15:26:11 ... we have a bunch of IMSC tests and they are a subset of the TTML1 tests 15:26:25 ... perhaps we should point to them too 15:27:10 glenn: the IMSC test suite exist independently 15:27:18 ... it focuses on IMSC features that are new 15:27:26 ... as well as on the constraints model that IMSC puts in place 15:27:40 ... we could incorporate some tests from there with minor massaging 15:27:51 ... there is probably some redundancy that is not harmful 15:28:01 ... we'd have to look at the IMSC tests on a case by case basis 15:28:15 ... to make sure that there is nothing that would be problematic for TTML1 processors 15:28:21 ... in theory they should not be 15:28:52 ... moving forward we can incrementally add new tests 15:28:58 nigel: any other question? 15:29:07 Topic: TTML Live Extensions Module 15:29:19 -> https://github.com/w3c/tt-module-live/blob/master/README.md TTML Live Extensions Module README 15:29:47 nigel: I have pushed (after Cyril's approval to get past the branch protection) 3 documents 15:30:00 ... we can use them as a basis to raise issues 15:30:08 ... I have some editor's notes to make changes in the guide 15:30:35 ... the TTML live extension module is done, pending comments 15:30:48 ... also the TTML live carriage over websocket 15:31:05 ... the one that does need some work is the guide 15:31:16 ... this structure of having a guide separate from the main spec 15:31:27 ... is based on the request from the group 15:31:44 ... I'm interested if more needs to be pruned out or more added 15:31:50 ... we can shift content between documents 15:32:02 ... I plan to bring examples from the EBU document into the guide 15:32:14 ... I'd like to add this to the agenda for TPAC 15:32:24 ... so people have about a month to review it 15:32:45 pal: is there a place where one can find a link to all TTML repos 15:33:01 ... I'm looking at the wiki, under publications, and can't find it 15:33:08 -> https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/#recent-activity TTWG Home page including repos 15:33:08 nigel: the home page contains all the repos 15:33:38 ... I need to add the Karaoke, the Live module, ... 15:33:51 pal: it'd be good to have all the modules on which we are working 15:33:58 glenn has joined #tt 15:34:07 try https://github.com/search?q=org%3Aw3c+tt&unscoped_q=tt etc 15:34:14 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/65 Action on Nigel to add new repos to the home page 15:34:56 nigel: in terms of details regarding the live extension, I created the new features for the live extensions in the TTML features namespace 15:35:08 ... I didn't do in the EBU namespace or some other namespace 15:35:18 ... I just use the feature namespace directly 15:35:31 cyril: I did the same in the karaoke module 15:35:59 glenn: so there is the definition of the underlying features (element types, attribute types) and you used the existing namespaces for that? 15:36:08 nigel: I was talking about the feature designation 15:36:27 glenn: you put that in the standard features namespace not the extension namespace 15:36:29 nigel: right 15:36:40 glenn: and about the underlying features? 15:36:47 nigel: I kept them in the source EBU namespaces 15:36:55 ... there are only attributes, no new elements 15:36:59 glenn: that might be a problem 15:37:19 ... to put the feature designation in the standard namespace while using non-TTML namespaces for the underlying features 15:37:38 nigel: I did not think it would be a problem, but please review and explain why it would be a problem 15:37:54 pal: EBU is giving up the control of those elements? 15:37:57 nigel: yes 15:38:07 pal: it'd be good to have confirmation for that 15:38:28 s/yes/yes, for this work/ 15:39:08 nigel: not everything in EBU namespaces would move under W3C's control 15:39:44 glenn: if you propose to include underlying features defined under EBU controlled namespaces, it makes me uncomfortable 15:40:01 nigel: anything under these specifications is being contributed by EBU 15:40:06 ... no doubt in my mind 15:40:45 ... if we need to extend in the future, we might want to add it in the same namespace, but EBU might not be happy with that 15:40:51 ... is that the problem? 15:41:59 pal: I'm not sure I see a scenario where we need to use names for other things that those that were transferred 15:42:07 ... extensions will be in W3C namespaces 15:42:13 ... I don't see a risk 15:42:37 ... but we need a formal communication from EBU explicitly saying we transfer control of these elements/attributes/features 15:42:43 nigel: I agree 15:43:07 ... to glenn's point, I feel that the namespace of the feature designator can be separate from the namespace of the underlying features 15:43:31 glenn: one thing that would make me more comfortable is if you used the extensions namespace instead of the features namespace 15:43:41 nigel: that's not the point of how we do modules 15:44:00 s/underlying features/referenced vocabulary 15:45:11 glenn: [explaining extension catalog] 15:46:36 ... I don't have a definitive comment to make right now 15:46:42 ... need to review carefully 15:46:45 nigel: exactly 15:47:14 glenn: can you include in your explainer the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces 15:47:22 s/not// 15:47:44 s/for using/for not using/ 15:47:57 nigel: to preserve existing implementation 15:48:21 glenn: also add the rationale for using the features namespace and not the extensions one 15:48:28 nigel: because we are defining the module 15:48:44 pal: on that point, that's for me interop standpoint 15:48:55 ... there would be no downside in having it in the extensions namespace 15:49:15 nigel: I can't think of a problem 15:50:50 pal: there is a features and extensions bucket 15:51:05 nigel: I consider them separate by namespace only, no difference 15:53:31 nigel: anyway, my main point was to highlight the fact that the specs were here for people to review before TPAC 15:54:10 Topic: Charter status update 15:54:25 -> https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2018%2F05%2Ftimed-text-charter.html&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2019%2F08%2Fttwg-proposed-charter.html Proposed Charter (diff) 15:54:42 nigel: the thing to note is that the new TTWG charter as been put for AC review 15:54:59 ... please encourage your AC rep to look through that and provide feedback and vote 15:55:07 ... do look at the details of it 15:55:13 ... it has been tweaked 15:55:23 ... can you summarize them? 15:55:29 s/.../pal:/ 15:55:46 nigel: the coordination and review bits 15:56:03 ... there was a discussion about readopting the template text 15:56:14 pal: I'll do a manual diff 15:56:44 nigel: the one issue that I had was that the template text said that before entering CR you have to do Horizontal Review 15:57:06 ... they clarified that by saying "first entering CR" 15:57:42 pal: if they insist on that, we should do FPWD 15:57:54 nigel: but maybe we can do the HR on ED 15:57:59 ... any other question? 15:58:09 Topic: AOB 15:58:23 s/AOB/TPAC Planning/ 15:58:30 nigel: we have a wiki page 15:58:35 ... I've not seen any edit 15:58:54 ... do we want to have a meeting in a call the week after TPAC 15:59:19 ... I'll take views, don't have a strong opinion 15:59:24 ... any views? 15:59:30 cyril: no objection 15:59:52 nigel: let's cancel the call the week after TPAC 15:59:58 cyril: ok 16:00:09 nigel: next week I'm not available 16:00:23 ... if anybody wants to chair let me know 16:00:30 ... otherwise it may get cancelled 16:00:38 ... ping me in the next 24h 16:00:45 ... Gary might be back 16:00:52 pal: my regrets for next week 16:02:53 Topic: meeting close 16:03:03 nigel: thanks everybody, adjourned 16:03:10 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:20:48 s/github-bot, end topic//g 16:25:44 s/is based on the request from the group/is based on the request from the group to pare down the specification only to the normative parts 16:44:00 s/your explainer the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/your explainer the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces 16:44:10 s|s/for using/for not using/|| 16:45:30 s/by saying "first entering CR"/by saying "first entering CR". That 3 months means we need to ask for HR on new documents very soon. 16:45:49 rrsagent, make minutes 16:45:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:48:15 s|s/your explainer the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/your explainer the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces|| 16:48:49 s/can you include in your explainer the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/can you include in your explainer the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces 16:48:51 rrsagent, make minutes 16:48:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:49:27 s|s/can you include in your explainer the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/can you include in your explainer the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces|| 16:49:31 rrsagent, make minutes 16:49:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:50:45 s/the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces 16:50:46 rrsagent, make minutes 16:50:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:51:11 s|s/the rationale for using the TTML namespaces/the rationale for not using the TTML namespaces|| 16:52:02 i/nigel: to preserve existing implementation/for _not_ using the TTML namespaces for the vocabulary 16:52:04 rrsagent, make minutes 16:52:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:56:42 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:56:45 rrsagent, make minutes v2 16:56:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:58:52 rrsagent, make minutes 16:58:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/08/15-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:32:48 Zakim has left #tt