Nigel: [iterates through agenda]
Nigel: AOB? Any particular points to raise on this agenda?
group: no other business
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/945
Glenn: I posted a comment recently. I tried to do a quick 30 minute review and it's somewhat complicated.
… There's a premise that somehow we're doing something different than CSS is.
… That was the point of departure for Pierre to file this originally I think.
… 1. I don't think the documented CSS model which I linked to in my comments in the issue is very mature yet.
… It has a lot of conceptual and semantic issues. It's quite difficult to understand and in order to really get a handle
… on what Pierre is trying to say, one has to have a deep understanding of that document and what it is trying to say.
… So I'm not sure that there is a problem here at this point and it may be that if either myself or Pierre can get up to speed
… on the details of this issue we might we able to have a sidebar with Koji or Elika at TPAC to try to hash it out but
… I know I personally have to get it back in my head and review the current CSS WD.
… I don't think we can take any more action on it at this point.
… 2. I don't have any test content from Pierre that would show there is something broken here which I would like to see
… before I understand that there's a problem or not.
… He does refer to a codepen in some early comments so I need to go back and look at that because this came up
… when he was doing some ruby implementation work in imsc.js. Without doing that I cannot give more detail.
… The basic top level question he was asking is if we need ruby position to apply to the top level ruby containers as well
… as the ruby text containers and my original response to that was that we need it to apply to the top level ruby
… container in the case that the author did not use the ruby text container but used ruby text as children directly of the
… top level ruby container. That was the original motivation for saying that it applies.
Pierre: [arrives]
Nigel: Proposal is to discuss this at TPAC, either in our meeting, our joint CSS WG meeting or in a separate session less formally.
Pierre: Sounds good to me.
SUMMARY: Needs closer discussion with CSS experts to work out what needs to be done, to schedule for TPAC.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/950
Nigel: [Summarises older comments on issue] It wasn't clear if any change was being proposed, one option is to close it.
Glenn: If anyone can provide test content showing the current text is broken then we could reopen it.
Pierre: We are also doing editorial improvements, so this might fit in that category.
Glenn: I marked it as substantive because it requires changing the substance of one of the algorithms.
… As you've asked for, with any substantive change we should have test material.
Pierre: It may be that the outcome of the algorithm is the same, as you already argued, so in that case it could be editorial.
… An editorial clarification perhaps.
Glenn: I haven't seen any proposed language for that, if you would like to propose a note that would clarify something
… for the reader, I would be happy to consider that and downgrading this to be editorial.
Pierre: Happy to be assigned this and I will follow up on it.
SUMMARY: Pierre to consider if any editorial change would improve this, assigning to @palemieux
Glenn: Just to be clear, I would view removing set from the list in 10.4.4.4 as a substantive change, that's definitely
… changing the algorithm.
Pierre: Not if the outcome is the same as you argue.
Nigel: Let's not argue hypotheticals here, wait until we have a concrete proposal.
Glenn: By the way, in one of the comments in the thread on this issue I pointed out that computing the SSS of the set
… does have a substantive effect if you're serialising the CSS into an ISD. From a presentation only perspective if you
… are not considering an ISD there may be no semantic difference but we also have the ISD mechanism to keep in mind.
github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/203
Nigel: We don't have Cyril here, maybe it wasn't a good candidate for the agenda, let's see if we can do anything...
Nigel: I see that there are IMSC tests for this TTML1 functionality; can we simply copy those tests into the ttml1-tests
… repo from the imsc-tests repo?
Glenn: The TTML1 tests are in need of some work. I consider them legacy at this point.
… They need more work and I'm not sure how to go about doing that?
… If you start copying in some tests it will create a ripple in what's there right now. I urge some caution to consider the ramifications
… and the bigger picture for TTML1 testing. Keep in mind that the tests we have in our test suite are not for interop testing
… but for spec completion testing to get out of CR. I'm not sure if those new tests should go into TTML1 or what category
… they are in. Are they testing existing TTML1 functionality for which there was no test in the first place?
Nigel: I'd say they're testing functionality in TTML1 that didn't have tests before.
… Bear in mind that we rely on TTML1 tests for TTML2 also, for features defined in TTML1.
… Also if this could be even a small improvement I think we should do it even if it doesn't address the whole set of problems with the TTML1 tests repo.
… I'll take an action to raise an issue on ttml1-tests where we can consider including these tests.
Glenn: Just to let you know I might feel obligated to object on the basis that it extends the set of tests for existing
… features beyond what the CR tested for. I wouldn't mind including it if we could segregate additions in some way.
… I haven't got a suggestion.
Nigel: I'd be happy to segregate it in some way.
Glenn: That would make me a lot more comfortable.
… I don't know the state of documentation on the TTML1 test suite but we should document inclusions like this in a
… sensible way that point out that this is not intended to revisit the tests for exiting CR.
Nigel: I understand the concern, I think we'll be okay.
SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to raise an issue on ttml1-tests to add the region timing tests segregated away from CR exit criteria tests
Nigel: I haven't seen anything going to AC on this and we don't have plh on the call today.
Atsushi: I can't comment further on this.
Pierre: Do you know why it is being held up?
Nigel: I don't know.
Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making that, it's really useful. I've made some additions.
… Key things:
… 1. We are light on specific discussion topics
… 2. We have 2 joint meetings planned.
… Useful for folk here to be aware of the M&E IG work especially what is happening in WICG, for example
… with DataCue and Text Track Cue timing precision in the "time marches on" algorithm.
… I'll try to schedule some agenda time for us to prepare for that because we won't have an opportunity on the day.
… I've shared with the Chair of CSS WG our list of issues and will add it to our wiki page.
… The scheduling is not confirmed but we will avoid AC meeting and Friday for that joint meeting.
… Looking at Topics, we should add Karaoke and AD profile, and if we have something available in time, the 360º and
… live work too.
… I'll add those in tentatively.
… Anything else?
Andreas: For the 360º issue it would be good to sync with Chris Needham from the M&E IG.
… I propose to open a WICG group for this and we will try to draft an explainer here and post it there. It would be good
… if the people from the Immersive Web groups or the WICG would be present when we present this.
… It either fits in this last timeslot or the WICG timeslot.
Nigel: WICG is meeting Thursday 0830-1030 and Friday 1030-1230.
… Joint meeting on the Friday?
Andreas: That makes sense, also something on the Monday in M&E IG. I will set that up, after seeing the response from
… Chris Wilson, who is one of the WICG chairs. I will try to follow up by next week.
Pierre: Silly question - there's the M&E IG, the Media WG, the WICG and the Chinese IG. It's getting crowded! Do you see
… a hierarchy of relationships? Any insights?
Nigel: Not a silly question!
Pierre: Wondering if you have had any discussions.
Nigel: No explicit request to me as Chair of this group, obviously everyone had chance to comment on the Media WG
… Charter via their AC rep.
Andreas: I think for the more general discussion and an overview, the Media and Entertainment IG is good, to direct to the right group.
… It's one of the mandates of the M&E IG.
… For specific issues we need to involve the people more or less interested in the topic.
… It makes sense not to duplicate what we discuss in all these slots.
… There is indeed a hierarchy of granularity in how we discuss these issues.
… The interesting part is if something relates to the new Media WG and there's an overlap.
… Other than that we will not waste our time I think.
Pierre: Going back to the Chinese IG, is this something where we need get a joint meeting at TPAC and force the issue?
… Maybe TPAC is a good opportunity to meet them at least.
Andreas: I second that, it's the best opportunity, I assume more people will be present at TPAC than other events because of the proximity to China.
… The best way to discuss the issues is to meet in person, it's super important to use this opportunity.
Pierre: If a formal meeting is impossible then an informal one would be good.
Nigel: Happy to do that.
Glenn: Question: is it fair to say that they have latched onto an imagined requirement pertaining to subtitles or captions
… that were not supposedly handled elsewhere as a means of getting off the ground with technical work? If that is true,
… then how likely are they going to want to cling to that as something that they have tried to create ownership of, to
… give them something to work on? Just thinking out loud hypothetically.
Nigel: I wouldn't like to second guess them without talking to them.
Glenn: That's fair.
Nigel: Looking at the schedule, the Chinese IG is meeting on Friday.
Nigel: We have a very long standing issue open with Unicode and I've been in discussion with the Chair of CLDR
… to try to get some movement. It could be that we'll be asked if we can contribute something to help push it along.
Nigel: Unicode has moved their tracking to GitHub, there's a link in #59 above, for information.
Atsushi: Thank you for the time. I also work for i18n WG.
… We usually use two levels to track activities in relationship with WGs.
… I added two labels, i18n comment, mostly used to add comments,
… the second is i18n tracking. If you want comments from i18n WG members, attach this label to any issue
… and it is checked weekly by i18n and copied to our issue tracker.
… If you encounter any i18n related issue please add either of these two labels.
Nigel: You've created the labels ready to go?
atsushi: Yes I've created it on tt-reqs and tt-modules-cjk-ext-1.
Nigel: Probably worth adding them to all our repos - see the home page
Atsushi: I will check the list of repositories with those two labels.
Nigel: Is i18n-comment for us asking a comment from i18n WG?
Atsushi: i18n WG uses the i18n-comment label to indicate where a request has been made for review.
Nigel: Ah, so we use i18n-tracking for requesting a comment.
Atsushi: Yes.
Nigel: Thank you, that's clear.
<atsushi> sample https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4159
Pierre: I opened a pull request on IMSC 1.2 to add font, pointing you to it, so looking forward to your thoughts.
Nigel: I have begun reviewing that, it wasn't quick, so I haven't finished!
Pierre: It wasn't quick to create!
… On the issue of forced display and visibility, there are two distinct topics.
… One is that the current text is kind of weird and I think that can definitely been improved.
… The bigger question is a new distinct experience that we really ought to discuss.
… It's a really good use case to discuss and address correctly.
Nigel: Okay, happy to do that.
Nigel: I support the idea of understanding the requirements.
Pierre: You're suggesting a new kind of experience, captions for the visually impaired, so to the extent that people
… are going to create that kind of content you have to make sure it gets to readers and is not dropped.
… My initial reaction is we should make that experience a first class citizen.
… Some readers may never let the content out because it is not visible.
… That's the bigger topic.
… Not sure of the technical solution yet. Bigger discussion.
Nigel: Then I'll add it to the topic list for TPAC.
Pierre: Sounds good.
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're out of time for today. [adjourns meeting]