15:00:18 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:00:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-irc 15:00:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:00:20 Zakim has joined #tt 15:00:22 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:00:22 Date: 08 August 2019 15:00:37 Present: Andreas, Atsushi, Nigel 15:00:38 Chair: Nigel 15:00:45 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-tt-irc 15:02:30 Regrets: Cyril, Gary 15:03:26 Present+ Glenn 15:03:53 atai2 has joined #tt 15:04:08 scribe: nigel 15:04:11 Topic: This meeting 15:04:23 Nigel: [iterates through agenda] 15:04:27 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/54 15:05:43 Nigel: AOB? Any particular points to raise on this agenda? 15:05:57 group: no other business 15:06:23 Topic: Remove application of tts:rubyPosition to ruby annotation text. ttml2#945 15:06:29 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/945 15:06:51 Glenn: I posted a comment recently. I tried to do a quick 30 minute review and it's somewhat complicated. 15:06:59 .. There's a premise that somehow we're doing something different than CSS is. 15:07:13 .. That was the point of departure for Pierre to file this originally I think. 15:07:31 .. 1. I don't think the documented CSS model which I linked to in my comments in the issue is very mature yet. 15:07:50 .. It has a lot of conceptual and semantic issues. It's quite difficult to understand and in order to really get a handle 15:08:05 .. on what Pierre is trying to say, one has to have a deep understanding of that document and what it is trying to say. 15:08:28 .. So I'm not sure that there is a problem here at this point and it may be that if either myself or Pierre can get up to speed 15:08:47 .. on the details of this issue we might we able to have a sidebar with Koji or Elika at TPAC to try to hash it out but 15:09:00 .. I know I personally have to get it back in my head and review the current CSS WD. 15:09:07 .. I don't think we can take any more action on it at this point. 15:09:34 .. 2. I don't have any test content from Pierre that would show there is something broken here which I would like to see 15:09:40 .. before I understand that there's a problem or not. 15:09:56 .. He does refer to a codepen in some early comments so I need to go back and look at that because this came up 15:10:12 .. when he was doing some ruby implementation work in imsc.js. Without doing that I cannot give more detail. 15:10:13 q? 15:10:34 .. The basic top level question he was asking is if we need ruby position to apply to the top level ruby containers as well 15:10:48 .. as the ruby text containers and my original response to that was that we need it to apply to the top level ruby 15:11:03 .. container in the case that the author did not use the ruby text container but used ruby text as children directly of the 15:11:16 .. top level ruby container. That was the original motivation for saying that it applies. 15:11:19 Present+ Pierre 15:11:32 Pierre: [arrives] 15:13:38 Nigel: Proposal is to discuss this at TPAC, either in our meeting, our joint CSS WG meeting or in a separate session less formally. 15:13:41 Pierre: Sounds good to me. 15:14:19 SUMMARY: Needs closer discussion with CSS experts to work out what needs to be done, to schedule for TPAC. 15:14:44 Topic: The set element is included in [resolve computed styles]. ttml2#950 15:14:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/950 15:17:44 Nigel: [Summarises older comments on issue] It wasn't clear if any change was being proposed, one option is to close it. 15:17:58 Glenn: If anyone can provide test content showing the current text is broken then we could reopen it. 15:18:10 Pierre: We are also doing editorial improvements, so this might fit in that category. 15:18:22 Glenn: I marked it as substantive because it requires changing the substance of one of the algorithms. 15:18:37 .. As you've asked for, with any substantive change we should have test material. 15:18:53 Pierre: It may be that the outcome of the algorithm is the same, as you already argued, so in that case it could be editorial. 15:19:01 .. An editorial clarification perhaps. 15:19:18 Glenn: I haven't seen any proposed language for that, if you would like to propose a note that would clarify something 15:19:29 .. for the reader, I would be happy to consider that and downgrading this to be editorial. 15:19:42 Pierre: Happy to be assigned this and I will follow up on it. 15:19:52 q? 15:20:31 SUMMARY: Pierre to consider if any editorial change would improve this, assigning to @palemieux 15:20:54 Glenn: Just to be clear, I would view removing set from the list in 10.4.4.4 as a substantive change, that's definitely 15:20:58 .. changing the algorithm. 15:22:03 Pierre: Not if the outcome is the same as you argue. 15:22:20 Nigel: Let's not argue hypotheticals here, wait until we have a concrete proposal. 15:22:40 Glenn: By the way, in one of the comments in the thread on this issue I pointed out that computing the SSS of the set 15:23:00 .. does have a substantive effect if you're serialising the CSS into an ISD. From a presentation only perspective if you 15:23:14 .. are not considering an ISD there may be no semantic difference but we also have the ISD mechanism to keep in mind. 15:26:55 Topic: Missing test for #region-timing. ttml2-tests#203 15:27:01 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2-tests/issues/203 15:27:19 Nigel: We don't have Cyril here, maybe it wasn't a good candidate for the agenda, let's see if we can do anything... 15:28:29 Nigel: I see that there are IMSC tests for this TTML1 functionality; can we simply copy those tests into the ttml1-tests 15:28:41 .. repo from the imsc-tests repo? 15:29:04 Glenn: The TTML1 tests are in need of some work. I consider them legacy at this point. 15:29:20 .. They need more work and I'm not sure how to go about doing that? 15:29:41 .. If you start copying in some tests it will create a ripple in what's there right now. I urge some caution to consider the ramifications 15:29:56 .. and the bigger picture for TTML1 testing. Keep in mind that the tests we have in our test suite are not for interop testing 15:30:16 .. but for spec completion testing to get out of CR. I'm not sure if those new tests should go into TTML1 or what category 15:30:32 .. they are in. Are they testing existing TTML1 functionality for which there was no test in the first place? 15:31:42 Nigel: I'd say they're testing functionality in TTML1 that didn't have tests before. 15:31:57 .. Bear in mind that we rely on TTML1 tests for TTML2 also, for features defined in TTML1. 15:32:22 .. Also if this could be even a small improvement I think we should do it even if it doesn't address the whole set of problems with the TTML1 tests repo. 15:33:22 .. I'll take an action to raise an issue on ttml1-tests where we can consider including these tests. 15:33:51 Glenn: Just to let you know I might feel obligated to object on the basis that it extends the set of tests for existing 15:34:06 .. features beyond what the CR tested for. I wouldn't mind including it if we could segregate additions in some way. 15:34:20 .. I haven't got a suggestion. 15:34:27 Nigel: I'd be happy to segregate it in some way. 15:34:33 Glenn: That would make me a lot more comfortable. 15:34:47 .. I don't know the state of documentation on the TTML1 test suite but we should document inclusions like this in a 15:35:05 .. sensible way that point out that this is not intended to revisit the tests for exiting CR. 15:35:16 Nigel: I understand the concern, I think we'll be okay. 15:35:45 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to raise an issue on ttml1-tests to add the region timing tests segregated away from CR exit criteria tests 15:36:01 github-bot, end topic 15:36:31 Topic: TTWG Charter status 15:36:52 Nigel: I haven't seen anything going to AC on this and we don't have plh on the call today. 15:37:03 Atsushi: I can't comment further on this. 15:37:10 Pierre: Do you know why it is being held up? 15:37:12 Nigel: I don't know. 15:37:22 Topic: TPAC Planning 15:37:44 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2019 Our TPAC wiki page 15:37:56 Nigel: Thank you Atsushi for making that, it's really useful. I've made some additions. 15:38:15 .. Key things: 15:38:22 .. 1. We are light on specific discussion topics 15:38:27 .. 2. We have 2 joint meetings planned. 15:39:58 .. Useful for folk here to be aware of the M&E IG work especially what is happening in WICG, for example 15:40:13 .. with DataCue and Text Track Cue timing precision in the "time marches on" algorithm. 15:40:49 .. I'll try to schedule some agenda time for us to prepare for that because we won't have an opportunity on the day. 15:41:54 .. I've shared with the Chair of CSS WG our list of issues and will add it to our wiki page. 15:42:10 .. The scheduling is not confirmed but we will avoid AC meeting and Friday for that joint meeting. 15:43:05 .. Looking at Topics, we should add Karaoke and AD profile, and if we have something available in time, the 360º and 15:43:08 .. live work too. 15:43:14 .. I'll add those in tentatively. 15:43:17 .. Anything else? 15:43:35 Andreas: For the 360º issue it would be good to sync with Chris Needham from the M&E IG. 15:43:54 .. I propose to open a WICG group for this and we will try to draft an explainer here and post it there. It would be good 15:44:07 pal has joined #tt 15:44:09 .. if the people from the Immersive Web groups or the WICG would be present when we present this. 15:44:19 .. It either fits in this last timeslot or the WICG timeslot. 15:45:12 Nigel: WICG is meeting Thursday 0830-1030 and Friday 1030-1230. 15:45:47 .. Joint meeting on the Friday? 15:46:10 Andreas: That makes sense, also something on the Monday in M&E IG. I will set that up, after seeing the response from 15:46:24 .. Chris Wilson, who is one of the WICG chairs. I will try to follow up by next week. 15:47:08 Pierre: Silly question - there's the M&E IG, the Media WG, the WICG and the Chinese IG. It's getting crowded! Do you see 15:47:19 .. a hierarchy of relationships? Any insights? 15:47:26 Nigel: Not a silly question! 15:47:34 Pierre: Wondering if you have had any discussions. 15:48:19 Nigel: No explicit request to me as Chair of this group, obviously everyone had chance to comment on the Media WG 15:48:24 .. Charter via their AC rep. 15:48:50 Andreas: I think for the more general discussion and an overview, the Media and Entertainment IG is good, to direct to the right group. 15:48:57 .. It's one of the mandates of the M&E IG. 15:49:12 .. For specific issues we need to involve the people more or less interested in the topic. 15:49:20 .. It makes sense not to duplicate what we discuss in all these slots. 15:49:30 .. There is indeed a hierarchy of granularity in how we discuss these issues. 15:49:44 .. The interesting part is if something relates to the new Media WG and there's an overlap. 15:49:54 .. Other than that we will not waste our time I think. 15:50:15 Pierre: Going back to the Chinese IG, is this something where we need get a joint meeting at TPAC and force the issue? 15:50:18 q+ 15:50:26 .. Maybe TPAC is a good opportunity to meet them at least. 15:50:33 ack atsushi 15:50:36 ack atai 15:51:00 Andreas: I second that, it's the best opportunity, I assume more people will be present at TPAC than other events because of the proximity to China. 15:51:14 .. The best way to discuss the issues is to meet in person, it's super important to use this opportunity. 15:51:27 Pierre: If a formal meeting is impossible then an informal one would be good. 15:51:30 Nigel: Happy to do that. 15:51:58 Glenn: Question: is it fair to say that they have latched onto an imagined requirement pertaining to subtitles or captions 15:52:15 .. that were not supposedly handled elsewhere as a means of getting off the ground with technical work? If that is true, 15:52:30 .. then how likely are they going to want to cling to that as something that they have tried to create ownership of, to 15:52:42 .. give them something to work on? Just thinking out loud hypothetically. 15:52:53 Nigel: I wouldn't like to second guess them without talking to them. 15:52:56 Glenn: That's fair.