13:51:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
13:51:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-irc
13:51:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pwe
13:51:35 <tzviya> Meeting: PWE July Meeting
13:51:42 <tzviya> Date: 2019-07-11
13:51:48 <tzviya> Chair: An Qi Li
13:55:24 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pwe
13:55:58 <Ralph> present+
13:57:26 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2019Jul/0019.html
13:59:05 <tzviya> present+
14:00:35 <nigel> nigel has joined #pwe
14:01:53 <angel> angel has joined #pwe
14:02:00 <angel> present+ Angel
14:02:21 <wendyreid> present+
14:03:03 <nigel> Present+ Nigel
14:03:30 <Ralph> present+ Judy
14:03:38 <angel> zakim, agenda?
14:03:38 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:04:38 <angel> agenda +Review and merge open Pull Requests
14:04:54 <angel> agenda +3.	Issue 56[4] - Improve details of reporting sections
14:05:14 <angel> agenda + Pull request discussion tracking
14:05:19 <Judy> Judy has joined #pwe
14:05:24 <angel> agenda +5.	ombuds training resources
14:05:37 <angel> agenda + Group priority and Publication Plan
14:05:53 <angel> agenda + AoB
14:06:31 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Angel
14:06:34 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wendyreid
14:06:35 <angel> zakim, take up agenda 1
14:06:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Review and merge open Pull Requests" taken up [from angel]
14:07:06 <Ralph> scribenick: Ralph
14:07:35 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #pwe
14:07:42 <jorydotcom> hello
14:08:23 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/56 #56 Improve details of reporting sections
14:08:38 <Ralph> Ada: thanks for the feedback
14:08:50 <ada> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/56
14:09:21 <Ralph> ... this was inspired by the BBC CoC which had very clear reporting guidelines
14:09:41 <Ralph> ... rapid response / emergency services info was missing; see separate PR
14:09:59 <Ralph> ... next PoC could be speaking to the chair
14:10:06 <Judy> q+
14:10:14 <Ralph> ... the chair should be familiar with those involved
14:10:43 <Ralph> ... but should the person not be comfortable raising an issue to the chair -- or if the chair is the issue -- they should be able to go straight to the Ombuds
14:11:13 <Ralph> ... and the chairs themselves should be able to go to the Ombuds if they don't feel they can resolve the issue
14:11:27 <nigel> q+
14:11:32 <tzviya> q+
14:11:54 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:12:34 <Ralph> Judy: I'm glad to see we're not assuming everyone would be comfortable going first to the chair
14:12:51 <Ralph> ... I encourage that we provide other channels
14:13:04 <Ralph> ... where is the link to the BBC policy?
14:13:19 <tzviya> https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc/reports/policies/codeofconduct
14:13:23 <angel> bbc coc:https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc/reports/policies/codeofconduct
14:13:48 <tzviya> q?
14:13:59 <tzviya> ack nigel
14:14:19 <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/blob/master/ReferencesAndResources.md References and Resources
14:14:53 <Ralph> Nigel: regarding chairs being in the escalation path; some groups have multiple chairs
14:15:14 <Ralph> ... it should be possible that one chair can seek assistance from another chair
14:15:49 <Ralph> ... should a chair be able to do that, or approach another Team member, before going to the Ombuds?
14:16:21 <Ralph> Ada: giving people options and letting them go wherever they're most comfortable
14:16:30 <Ralph> Nigel: yes; open wording rather than closed wording
14:16:31 <tzviya> ack tzviya
14:16:57 <Ralph> Tzviya: +1 to Ada; we have to remember this is not a formal process and that people will go where they're more comfortable anyway
14:17:08 <Ralph> ... I'd prefer to advise people to go to a chair or Ombuds
14:17:09 <angel> + 1 to encourage people to go to umbuds and chairs
14:17:22 <Ralph> ... our goal should be to circulate this for review very soon
14:17:35 <angel> s/umbuds/ombuds
14:17:36 <Ralph> ... we'd discussed whether reporting should be more robust in this document or in a separate place
14:17:46 <angel> q+
14:17:50 <Ralph> ... I'm fine adding a bit more to this document
14:17:53 <tzviya> ack angel
14:17:59 <Ralph> ... so we can circulate for review quickly
14:18:16 <jorydotcom> +q
14:18:25 <Ralph> Angel: will all chairs be comfortable handling issues such as these?
14:18:39 <tzviya> ack jorydotcom
14:19:00 <Ralph> Ada: we could say that if a chair is not comfortable handling CEPC issues the chair should help the individual raise it in other ways
14:19:13 <Ralph> Jory: that leads to the training issue
14:19:37 <Ralph> ... I've been talking with others about finding resources and developing a training program
14:20:02 <Ralph> ... we'd need to provide training before asking chairs to step into this role
14:20:12 <Ralph> ... we could even open it to everybody
14:20:16 <Judy> q+
14:20:19 <tzviya> ack Judy
14:20:21 <nigel> +1 to the idea of training for Chairs, as a Chair!
14:20:28 <Ralph> Angel: could raise this during TPAC Chairs' Breakfast
14:20:56 <Ralph> Judy: important to have training for chairs, also important to not put them in this role before there is training
14:21:04 <tzviya> +1 to chairs' training, as a chair
14:21:17 <wendyreid> +1 to chair's training, also as a chair
14:21:37 <tzviya> q+
14:21:52 <tzviya> ack tz
14:22:11 <Ralph> Tzviya: every chair with whom I've spoken thinks this [training] is a good idea
14:22:24 <Ralph> ... people approach chairs now
14:22:37 <Ralph> ... we know that not everyone will handle such issues well
14:22:48 <Judy> [jb: what tzviya is saying works for me]
14:22:52 <Ralph> ... people can judge for themselves what they think is the best option
14:22:58 <Ralph> ... so we can list several options
14:23:47 <Ralph> Judy: if we raise this with the chairs at TPAC, let's have a proposal; not just raise the question
14:23:58 <Ralph> Jory: agree; a concrete proposal for what we might provide
14:24:11 <Ralph> ... e.g. a 30-minute training session on responding to incident reports
14:24:18 <Ralph> ... and point to the type of materials we might use
14:25:09 <Ralph> Judy: "welcome everyone to be resources for each other, plan to have resources, plan to have a training session, any discussion"
14:25:15 <Ralph> Jory: sounds do-able
14:28:18 <Ralph> Ada: I'll make a pull request for #56
14:28:54 <angel> topic: Pull Request 57 - Clarify what we reserve the right to not act on
14:29:16 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/57 #57 "unacceptable" about reverse -isms
14:29:37 <Ralph> Ada: there was an old discussion on #44 where people felt OK to draft a pr
14:29:46 <Ralph> ... there have been some changes proposed to my initial text
14:30:31 <Ralph> ... social justice debates
14:30:35 <Ralph> ... tone
14:30:59 <Ralph> ... this is a list of stuff that Ombuds may choose not to act on
14:31:32 <Ralph> ... I'm working on improving the text based on the feedback
14:31:43 <nigel> q+
14:31:52 <Ralph> ... generally there seems to be agreement
14:32:14 <Ralph> ... the current conversation is on the opening text; do we have to guarantee that we will give a response?
14:32:55 <Ralph> ... the pr largely seems to be uncontroversial; it's getting the details right
14:33:18 <angel> ack nigel
14:34:19 <Ralph> Nigel: what's the motivation for 'will' vs. 'should'?
14:35:03 <Ralph> Ada: initially it read "will prioritize the safety" but the section was moved into a "... but ..." case and I didn't want to reduce the intensity of the initial statement
14:35:32 <Ralph> ... I didn't want to reduce the importance of that second bit with it being after a 'but' in the initial phrase
14:35:42 <Ralph> Nigel: perhaps 'but' should be 'and'?
14:35:51 <Ralph> Ada: there needs to be some contrast
14:36:07 <Ralph> ... we do need to take everything seriously but some issues shouldn't be brought forward for these reasons
14:36:20 <Ralph> ... but maybe 'and' does work
14:36:23 <Ralph> Nigel: or a new sentence
14:37:20 <Ralph> Ada: perhaps [the initial sentence] should be moved elsewhere
14:37:25 <Ralph> Nigel, Jory: +1
14:37:33 <Ralph> Ada: I'll make that change; it makes more sense
14:38:27 <angel> topic: pull request #51
14:38:46 <Ralph> -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/51 #51 added rapid response info to Reporting
14:39:06 <Ralph> Ada: this is about contacting law enforcement first
14:39:15 <Ralph> ... we're waiting for an email address to populate the field
14:39:16 <Judy> q+
14:39:28 <Ralph> ... then it should be OK to merge
14:39:32 <angel> ack judy
14:39:39 <Ralph> Judy: a practical issue:
14:39:59 <Ralph> ... in most codes it's practical to say "contact local law enforcement"
14:40:22 <Ralph> ... we work in a very diverse organization where people come from multiple contries and may not be familiar with the jurisdiction they're visiting
14:40:45 <Ralph> ... it may be bewildering to have to find local law enforcement, and possibly not even safe
14:41:04 <Ralph> ... I suggest that we make this real and think about what might actually work
14:41:18 <Ralph> ... for instance, "if you need help in doing so, here's how ..."
14:41:23 <angel> q+
14:41:46 <Ralph> ... these are hypotheticals but may be likely in our distributed international environment
14:41:59 <Ralph> ... "contact local law enforcement but also contact the Ombuds"
14:42:17 <Ralph> ... [W3M] has had some discussion about rapid response procedures
14:42:34 <angel> ack ralph
14:42:37 <nigel> scribe: nigel
14:42:42 <nigel> Ralph: 3 things.
14:42:48 <Judy> s/practical to say/common to say, in urgent situations,/
14:42:58 <nigel> .. I concur with Judy's comment that someone might not know how to contact local law enforcement
14:43:21 <nigel> .. There's a W3M conversation about rapid response protocol.
14:43:43 <nigel> .. The current PWE procedures document notes [looks up the link]
14:43:47 <Ralph> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/pwe/#ombuds
14:44:09 <nigel> .. lists the Ombuds and has a note that the Ombuds may be contacted individually or in subset (or all of them)
14:44:18 <nigel> .. I realised we don't have a convenient way to contact all of them, so
14:44:23 <nigel> .. I created an alias
14:44:27 <Ralph> mailto:ombuds@w3.org
14:44:41 <nigel> .. I suggest that might be a reasonable place to start.
14:44:47 <Judy> [JB: tries to clarify that I *wasn't* proposing adding detail about "How" -- I was suggesting adding something to make it less of an either-or, but rather a "both-and" -- e.g. contact local law enforcement, and feel free to also contact ombuds to ask for help or support with dealing with local law enforcement]
14:44:49 <Judy> q+
14:44:51 <nigel> .. I proposed internally that we create an alias specifically for rapid response
14:44:56 <nigel> .. That's undergoing discussion
14:45:23 <nigel> Ada: I'll add that to the PR
14:45:30 <nigel> Judy: That doesn't address my concerns fully
14:45:34 <nigel> Ralph: I didn't intend it to.
14:45:35 <nigel> q?
14:45:37 <angel> ack angel
14:45:46 <Judy> q+ to re-focus the discussion of my suggestion
14:45:57 <nigel> Angel: Practical suggestion: could we have the ombudsperson prepare the local law enforcement contact info
14:46:16 <nigel> .. and people may not have an idea how to call the police like Tokyo, China, Lisbon.
14:46:35 <nigel> .. When we have the location fixed before the event the ombudsperson could check out the local law enforcement
14:46:44 <nigel> .. contact information and prepare that for quick access.
14:46:59 <angel> s/ location/contact info and way to contact
14:47:00 <nigel> Judy: Difficult suggestion to do. In a given country of the many we hold meetings in, even from region to region
14:47:16 <nigel> .. or city to city the contact policies may be different and that would be an exhaustive exercise to compile it.
14:47:23 <nigel> .. It could get left off the planning list.
14:47:32 <ada> q+
14:47:35 <nigel> .. The frequency of urgent situations is hopefully low, but not non-existent.
14:47:49 <nigel> .. What I was thinking of was different, which was to indicate not that a message would go to
14:47:49 <Ralph> -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers [Wikipedia] List of emergency telephone numbers
14:47:59 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to re-focus the discussion of my suggestion
14:48:05 <nigel> .. all the ombudspeople, but rather that we not present to somebody an either/or if it is an urgent issue.
14:48:16 <nigel> .. Just say "call your local folks and feel free to let an ombudsperson know"
14:48:32 <nigel> .. Along the same lines as physical injury away from base, have to go to emergency room.
14:48:51 <nigel> .. We encourage people not to go alone but for someone else to go with them esp if the country isn't familiar to them.
14:49:05 <nigel> q+ to ask about building security when available
14:49:27 <nigel> .. I'm thinking of something lightweight - if urgent, contact local law enforcement and also you can let someone else know
14:49:34 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to discuss a practical suggestion about local instruction
14:49:42 <nigel> Ralph: I think we're deep into details which are probably better handled outside this call
14:50:00 <nigel> .. I thought we'd had a conversation, I don't recall where, but would solicit advice here, of making emergency, both
14:50:16 <jorydotcom> +1 to that
14:50:16 <nigel> .. for law enforcement and health, a required part of every f2f meeting logistics planning and documentation
14:50:24 <Judy> q+
14:50:34 <nigel> .. It's more general than the PWE issues we're discussing
14:50:39 <angel> ack ada
14:50:40 <nigel> rrsagent, pointer?
14:50:40 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-irc#T14-50-40
14:50:57 <nigel> Ada: From recent meetings, when the venue has been hosted at a big organisation,
14:51:06 <angel> zakim, close the queue
14:51:06 <Zakim> ok, angel, the speaker queue is closed
14:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
14:51:11 <nigel> .. we've been requested by the hosts not to call emegrency services but inform someone in the building
14:51:18 <nigel> .. Wondering if important to see that represented.
14:51:32 <nigel> Ralph: Exactly, that's not PWE, it's instructions for organising a meeting
14:51:50 <nigel> .. Those kinds of venue specific constructions can't be done by ombuds in general.
14:52:05 <nigel> .. The local organiser knows building-specific instructions. Exactly right Ada.
14:52:14 <nigel> .. Date specific too
14:52:15 <nigel> q?
14:52:26 <angel> ack nigel
14:52:26 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask about building security when available
14:52:52 <jorydotcom> Nigel ... some buildings have security present
14:53:11 <jorydotcom> .. is it reasonable to suggest that they be part of a protocol
14:53:31 <jorydotcom> .. if people aren't comfy with local law enforcement
14:54:12 <jorydotcom> .. what happens if you go to a meeting hosted by a big company with it's own building security
14:54:17 <Judy> q?
14:54:48 <nigel> s/Nigel ... some/Nigel: Some
14:54:55 <nigel> i/Nigel/scribe: jorydotcom
14:55:21 <jorydotcom> Judy .. when things have gone wrong, that's been one of the problems
14:55:48 <jorydotcom> .. let's say someone has a med emergency. you want to call local law enf anyway and you can notify security
14:56:05 <jorydotcom> .. but building sec. can still be a 5-10 min response cycle anyway
14:56:16 <jorydotcom> even in med emergency
14:56:32 <Ralph> -> http://emergency.mit.edu/ MIT's emergency instructions (for example)
14:56:32 <jorydotcom> .. so don't risk losing critical time by only contacting one
14:56:56 <jorydotcom> .. I like angel's idea about making sure local numbers are available
14:57:31 <jorydotcom> .. i'm suggesting that we add something that says if you do need to contact local law enforcement, please let an omsbudsperson know and whether you want someone to go with you
14:57:49 <jorydotcom> angel... I thnk thiis should be part of meeting of preparation
14:58:36 <jorydotcom> .. we have one more meeting between now and TPAC
14:58:51 <jorydotcom> .. should we have another meeting?
14:58:59 <jorydotcom> (+1)
14:59:17 <jorydotcom> .. group is +1 to scheduling bi-weekly
14:59:31 <jorydotcom> .. next call would be the 26th?
14:59:36 <jorydotcom> .. we still have items for today that are not finished
14:59:39 <wendyreid> +1
15:00:23 <jorydotcom> .. group is ok moving add'l items from this week to next time
15:00:27 <Judy> [JB: does anyone disagree with the suggestion I've been making? I can add an issue on this if needed; I have not heard an objection, but neither have I heard anyone respond directly on my suggestion, only other alternative ideas, some of which may also be useful.]
15:00:53 <Ralph> [I would appreciate an issue with specific wording, Judy]
15:01:05 <jorydotcom> .. we need to have something by end of August
15:01:26 <jorydotcom> ada .. would it be ok to get something after #57 is merged
15:01:34 <jorydotcom> angel .. yes
15:01:53 <jorydotcom> judy .. also looking for feedback on my suggestion, will add an issue
15:02:08 <jorydotcom> Ralph .. specific wording would be helpful
15:02:27 <jorydotcom> .. meeting concludes
15:05:40 <jorydotcom> question to probably @Ralph - is there a good resource for learning the irc bot commands etc?
15:05:45 <jorydotcom> I'm not so great at IRC
15:08:58 <Ralph> Jory, mostly people learn by watching :)  but the "Running a Meeting" section of the Chair's Guidebook -- https://www.w3.org/Guide/#run -- has several resources that help to get started
15:09:14 <wendyreid> jorydotcom: We have this resource we use in publishing :) https://github.com/w3c/publ-bg/wiki/Using-IRC-for-Meetings
15:09:23 <wendyreid> A little more simplified
15:09:25 <Ralph> s/dotcom:/dotcom,
15:09:39 <jorydotcom> TY TY!!!
15:09:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:10:30 <Ralph> and, as Wendy just noted, each group customizes the "general practices" according to that group's preferences
15:11:16 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph, Nigel, Jory
15:11:31 <Ralph> present+ AdaRose
15:11:49 <Ralph> present+ Jory
15:11:53 <Ralph> zakim, bye
15:11:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, tzviya, Angel, wendyreid, Nigel, Judy, AdaRose, Jory
15:11:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:12:13 <Ralph> s/+q//g
15:13:06 <Ralph> s/(+1)/<jorydotcom> +1
15:13:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:13:51 <Ralph> s/Judy .. when/Judy: .. when
15:14:22 <Ralph> s/angel... I thnk/Angel: I think
15:14:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
15:16:19 <Ralph> rrsagent, ybe
15:16:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'ybe', Ralph.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:16:22 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:16:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items