IRC log of pwe on 2019-07-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:17 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-irc

13:51:24 [Zakim]

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13:51:35 [tzviya]

Meeting: PWE July Meeting

13:51:42 [tzviya]

Date: 2019-07-11

13:51:48 [tzviya]

Chair: An Qi Li

13:55:24 [Ralph]

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present+

13:57:26 [Ralph]

agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2019Jul/0019.html

13:59:05 [tzviya]

present+

14:00:35 [nigel]

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14:01:53 [angel]

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14:02:00 [angel]

present+ Angel

14:02:21 [wendyreid]

present+

14:03:03 [nigel]

Present+ Nigel

14:03:30 [Ralph]

present+ Judy

14:03:38 [angel]

zakim, agenda?

14:03:38 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

14:04:38 [angel]

agenda +Review and merge open Pull Requests

14:04:54 [angel]

agenda +3.Issue 56[4] - Improve details of reporting sections

14:05:14 [angel]

agenda + Pull request discussion tracking

14:05:19 [Judy]

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14:05:24 [angel]

agenda +5.ombuds training resources

14:05:37 [angel]

agenda + Group priority and Publication Plan

14:05:53 [angel]

agenda + AoB

14:06:31 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Angel

14:06:34 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wendyreid

14:06:35 [angel]

zakim, take up agenda 1

14:06:37 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Review and merge open Pull Requests" taken up [from angel]

14:07:06 [Ralph]

scribenick: Ralph

14:07:35 [jorydotcom]

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14:07:42 [jorydotcom]

hello

14:08:23 [Ralph]

-> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/56 #56 Improve details of reporting sections

14:08:38 [Ralph]

Ada: thanks for the feedback

14:08:50 [ada]

https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/56

14:09:21 [Ralph]

... this was inspired by the BBC CoC which had very clear reporting guidelines

14:09:41 [Ralph]

... rapid response / emergency services info was missing; see separate PR

14:09:59 [Ralph]

... next PoC could be speaking to the chair

14:10:06 [Judy]

q+

14:10:14 [Ralph]

... the chair should be familiar with those involved

14:10:43 [Ralph]

... but should the person not be comfortable raising an issue to the chair -- or if the chair is the issue -- they should be able to go straight to the Ombuds

14:11:13 [Ralph]

... and the chairs themselves should be able to go to the Ombuds if they don't feel they can resolve the issue

14:11:27 [nigel]

q+

14:11:32 [tzviya]

q+

14:11:54 [tzviya]

ack Judy

14:12:34 [Ralph]

Judy: I'm glad to see we're not assuming everyone would be comfortable going first to the chair

14:12:51 [Ralph]

... I encourage that we provide other channels

14:13:04 [Ralph]

... where is the link to the BBC policy?

14:13:19 [tzviya]

https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc/reports/policies/codeofconduct

14:13:23 [angel]

bbc coc:https://www.bbc.com/aboutthebbc/reports/policies/codeofconduct

14:13:48 [tzviya]

q?

14:13:59 [tzviya]

ack nigel

14:14:19 [nigel]

-> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/blob/master/ReferencesAndResources.md References and Resources

14:14:53 [Ralph]

Nigel: regarding chairs being in the escalation path; some groups have multiple chairs

14:15:14 [Ralph]

... it should be possible that one chair can seek assistance from another chair

14:15:49 [Ralph]

... should a chair be able to do that, or approach another Team member, before going to the Ombuds?

14:16:21 [Ralph]

Ada: giving people options and letting them go wherever they're most comfortable

14:16:30 [Ralph]

Nigel: yes; open wording rather than closed wording

14:16:31 [tzviya]

ack tzviya

14:16:57 [Ralph]

Tzviya: +1 to Ada; we have to remember this is not a formal process and that people will go where they're more comfortable anyway

14:17:08 [Ralph]

... I'd prefer to advise people to go to a chair or Ombuds

14:17:09 [angel]

+ 1 to encourage people to go to umbuds and chairs

14:17:22 [Ralph]

... our goal should be to circulate this for review very soon

14:17:35 [angel]

s/umbuds/ombuds

14:17:36 [Ralph]

... we'd discussed whether reporting should be more robust in this document or in a separate place

14:17:46 [angel]

q+

14:17:50 [Ralph]

... I'm fine adding a bit more to this document

14:17:53 [tzviya]

ack angel

14:17:59 [Ralph]

... so we can circulate for review quickly

14:18:16 [jorydotcom]

+q

14:18:25 [Ralph]

Angel: will all chairs be comfortable handling issues such as these?

14:18:39 [tzviya]

ack jorydotcom

14:19:00 [Ralph]

Ada: we could say that if a chair is not comfortable handling CEPC issues the chair should help the individual raise it in other ways

14:19:13 [Ralph]

Jory: that leads to the training issue

14:19:37 [Ralph]

... I've been talking with others about finding resources and developing a training program

14:20:02 [Ralph]

... we'd need to provide training before asking chairs to step into this role

14:20:12 [Ralph]

... we could even open it to everybody

14:20:16 [Judy]

q+

14:20:19 [tzviya]

ack Judy

14:20:21 [nigel]

+1 to the idea of training for Chairs, as a Chair!

14:20:28 [Ralph]

Angel: could raise this during TPAC Chairs' Breakfast

14:20:56 [Ralph]

Judy: important to have training for chairs, also important to not put them in this role before there is training

14:21:04 [tzviya]

+1 to chairs' training, as a chair

14:21:17 [wendyreid]

+1 to chair's training, also as a chair

14:21:37 [tzviya]

q+

14:21:52 [tzviya]

ack tz

14:22:11 [Ralph]

Tzviya: every chair with whom I've spoken thinks this [training] is a good idea

14:22:24 [Ralph]

... people approach chairs now

14:22:37 [Ralph]

... we know that not everyone will handle such issues well

14:22:48 [Judy]

[jb: what tzviya is saying works for me]

14:22:52 [Ralph]

... people can judge for themselves what they think is the best option

14:22:58 [Ralph]

... so we can list several options

14:23:47 [Ralph]

Judy: if we raise this with the chairs at TPAC, let's have a proposal; not just raise the question

14:23:58 [Ralph]

Jory: agree; a concrete proposal for what we might provide

14:24:11 [Ralph]

... e.g. a 30-minute training session on responding to incident reports

14:24:18 [Ralph]

... and point to the type of materials we might use

14:25:09 [Ralph]

Judy: "welcome everyone to be resources for each other, plan to have resources, plan to have a training session, any discussion"

14:25:15 [Ralph]

Jory: sounds do-able

14:28:18 [Ralph]

Ada: I'll make a pull request for #56

14:28:54 [angel]

topic: Pull Request 57 - Clarify what we reserve the right to not act on

14:29:16 [Ralph]

-> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/57 #57 "unacceptable" about reverse -isms

14:29:37 [Ralph]

Ada: there was an old discussion on #44 where people felt OK to draft a pr

14:29:46 [Ralph]

... there have been some changes proposed to my initial text

14:30:31 [Ralph]

... social justice debates

14:30:35 [Ralph]

... tone

14:30:59 [Ralph]

... this is a list of stuff that Ombuds may choose not to act on

14:31:32 [Ralph]

... I'm working on improving the text based on the feedback

14:31:43 [nigel]

q+

14:31:52 [Ralph]

... generally there seems to be agreement

14:32:14 [Ralph]

... the current conversation is on the opening text; do we have to guarantee that we will give a response?

14:32:55 [Ralph]

... the pr largely seems to be uncontroversial; it's getting the details right

14:33:18 [angel]

ack nigel

14:34:19 [Ralph]

Nigel: what's the motivation for 'will' vs. 'should'?

14:35:03 [Ralph]

Ada: initially it read "will prioritize the safety" but the section was moved into a "... but ..." case and I didn't want to reduce the intensity of the initial statement

14:35:32 [Ralph]

... I didn't want to reduce the importance of that second bit with it being after a 'but' in the initial phrase

14:35:42 [Ralph]

Nigel: perhaps 'but' should be 'and'?

14:35:51 [Ralph]

Ada: there needs to be some contrast

14:36:07 [Ralph]

... we do need to take everything seriously but some issues shouldn't be brought forward for these reasons

14:36:20 [Ralph]

... but maybe 'and' does work

14:36:23 [Ralph]

Nigel: or a new sentence

14:37:20 [Ralph]

Ada: perhaps [the initial sentence] should be moved elsewhere

14:37:25 [Ralph]

Nigel, Jory: +1

14:37:33 [Ralph]

Ada: I'll make that change; it makes more sense

14:38:27 [angel]

topic: pull request #51

14:38:46 [Ralph]

-> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/pull/51 #51 added rapid response info to Reporting

14:39:06 [Ralph]

Ada: this is about contacting law enforcement first

14:39:15 [Ralph]

... we're waiting for an email address to populate the field

14:39:16 [Judy]

q+

14:39:28 [Ralph]

... then it should be OK to merge

14:39:32 [angel]

ack judy

14:39:39 [Ralph]

Judy: a practical issue:

14:39:59 [Ralph]

... in most codes it's practical to say "contact local law enforcement"

14:40:22 [Ralph]

... we work in a very diverse organization where people come from multiple contries and may not be familiar with the jurisdiction they're visiting

14:40:45 [Ralph]

... it may be bewildering to have to find local law enforcement, and possibly not even safe

14:41:04 [Ralph]

... I suggest that we make this real and think about what might actually work

14:41:18 [Ralph]

... for instance, "if you need help in doing so, here's how ..."

14:41:23 [angel]

q+

14:41:46 [Ralph]

... these are hypotheticals but may be likely in our distributed international environment

14:41:59 [Ralph]

... "contact local law enforcement but also contact the Ombuds"

14:42:17 [Ralph]

... [W3M] has had some discussion about rapid response procedures

14:42:34 [angel]

ack ralph

14:42:37 [nigel]

scribe: nigel

14:42:42 [nigel]

Ralph: 3 things.

14:42:48 [Judy]

s/practical to say/common to say, in urgent situations,/

14:42:58 [nigel]

.. I concur with Judy's comment that someone might not know how to contact local law enforcement

14:43:21 [nigel]

.. There's a W3M conversation about rapid response protocol.

14:43:43 [nigel]

.. The current PWE procedures document notes [looks up the link]

14:43:47 [Ralph]

https://www.w3.org/Consortium/pwe/#ombuds

14:44:09 [nigel]

.. lists the Ombuds and has a note that the Ombuds may be contacted individually or in subset (or all of them)

14:44:18 [nigel]

.. I realised we don't have a convenient way to contact all of them, so

14:44:23 [nigel]

.. I created an alias

14:44:27 [Ralph]

mailto:ombuds@w3.org

14:44:41 [nigel]

.. I suggest that might be a reasonable place to start.

14:44:47 [Judy]

[JB: tries to clarify that I *wasn't* proposing adding detail about "How" -- I was suggesting adding something to make it less of an either-or, but rather a "both-and" -- e.g. contact local law enforcement, and feel free to also contact ombuds to ask for help or support with dealing with local law enforcement]

14:44:49 [Judy]

q+

14:44:51 [nigel]

.. I proposed internally that we create an alias specifically for rapid response

14:44:56 [nigel]

.. That's undergoing discussion

14:45:23 [nigel]

Ada: I'll add that to the PR

14:45:30 [nigel]

Judy: That doesn't address my concerns fully

14:45:34 [nigel]

Ralph: I didn't intend it to.

14:45:35 [nigel]

q?

14:45:37 [angel]

ack angel

14:45:46 [Judy]

q+ to re-focus the discussion of my suggestion

14:45:57 [nigel]

Angel: Practical suggestion: could we have the ombudsperson prepare the local law enforcement contact info

14:46:16 [nigel]

.. and people may not have an idea how to call the police like Tokyo, China, Lisbon.

14:46:35 [nigel]

.. When we have the location fixed before the event the ombudsperson could check out the local law enforcement

14:46:44 [nigel]

.. contact information and prepare that for quick access.

14:46:59 [angel]

s/ location/contact info and way to contact

14:47:00 [nigel]

Judy: Difficult suggestion to do. In a given country of the many we hold meetings in, even from region to region

14:47:16 [nigel]

.. or city to city the contact policies may be different and that would be an exhaustive exercise to compile it.

14:47:23 [nigel]

.. It could get left off the planning list.

14:47:32 [ada]

q+

14:47:35 [nigel]

.. The frequency of urgent situations is hopefully low, but not non-existent.

14:47:49 [nigel]

.. What I was thinking of was different, which was to indicate not that a message would go to

14:47:49 [Ralph]

-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers [Wikipedia] List of emergency telephone numbers

14:47:59 [Zakim]

Judy, you wanted to re-focus the discussion of my suggestion

14:48:05 [nigel]

.. all the ombudspeople, but rather that we not present to somebody an either/or if it is an urgent issue.

14:48:16 [nigel]

.. Just say "call your local folks and feel free to let an ombudsperson know"

14:48:32 [nigel]

.. Along the same lines as physical injury away from base, have to go to emergency room.

14:48:51 [nigel]

.. We encourage people not to go alone but for someone else to go with them esp if the country isn't familiar to them.

14:49:05 [nigel]

q+ to ask about building security when available

14:49:27 [nigel]

.. I'm thinking of something lightweight - if urgent, contact local law enforcement and also you can let someone else know

14:49:34 [Zakim]

Ralph, you wanted to discuss a practical suggestion about local instruction

14:49:42 [nigel]

Ralph: I think we're deep into details which are probably better handled outside this call

14:50:00 [nigel]

.. I thought we'd had a conversation, I don't recall where, but would solicit advice here, of making emergency, both

14:50:16 [jorydotcom]

+1 to that

14:50:16 [nigel]

.. for law enforcement and health, a required part of every f2f meeting logistics planning and documentation

14:50:24 [Judy]

q+

14:50:34 [nigel]

.. It's more general than the PWE issues we're discussing

14:50:39 [angel]

ack ada

14:50:40 [nigel]

rrsagent, pointer?

14:50:40 [RRSAgent]

See https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-irc#T14-50-40

14:50:57 [nigel]

Ada: From recent meetings, when the venue has been hosted at a big organisation,

14:51:06 [angel]

zakim, close the queue

14:51:06 [Zakim]

ok, angel, the speaker queue is closed

14:51:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph

14:51:11 [nigel]

.. we've been requested by the hosts not to call emegrency services but inform someone in the building

14:51:18 [nigel]

.. Wondering if important to see that represented.

14:51:32 [nigel]

Ralph: Exactly, that's not PWE, it's instructions for organising a meeting

14:51:50 [nigel]

.. Those kinds of venue specific constructions can't be done by ombuds in general.

14:52:05 [nigel]

.. The local organiser knows building-specific instructions. Exactly right Ada.

14:52:14 [nigel]

.. Date specific too

14:52:15 [nigel]

q?

14:52:26 [angel]

ack nigel

14:52:26 [Zakim]

nigel, you wanted to ask about building security when available

14:52:52 [jorydotcom]

Nigel ... some buildings have security present

14:53:11 [jorydotcom]

.. is it reasonable to suggest that they be part of a protocol

14:53:31 [jorydotcom]

.. if people aren't comfy with local law enforcement

14:54:12 [jorydotcom]

.. what happens if you go to a meeting hosted by a big company with it's own building security

14:54:17 [Judy]

q?

14:54:48 [nigel]

s/Nigel ... some/Nigel: Some

14:54:55 [nigel]

i/Nigel/scribe: jorydotcom

14:55:21 [jorydotcom]

Judy .. when things have gone wrong, that's been one of the problems

14:55:48 [jorydotcom]

.. let's say someone has a med emergency. you want to call local law enf anyway and you can notify security

14:56:05 [jorydotcom]

.. but building sec. can still be a 5-10 min response cycle anyway

14:56:16 [jorydotcom]

even in med emergency

14:56:32 [Ralph]

-> http://emergency.mit.edu/ MIT's emergency instructions (for example)

14:56:32 [jorydotcom]

.. so don't risk losing critical time by only contacting one

14:56:56 [jorydotcom]

.. I like angel's idea about making sure local numbers are available

14:57:31 [jorydotcom]

.. i'm suggesting that we add something that says if you do need to contact local law enforcement, please let an omsbudsperson know and whether you want someone to go with you

14:57:49 [jorydotcom]

angel... I thnk thiis should be part of meeting of preparation

14:58:36 [jorydotcom]

.. we have one more meeting between now and TPAC

14:58:51 [jorydotcom]

.. should we have another meeting?

14:58:59 [jorydotcom]

(+1)

14:59:17 [jorydotcom]

.. group is +1 to scheduling bi-weekly

14:59:31 [jorydotcom]

.. next call would be the 26th?

14:59:36 [jorydotcom]

.. we still have items for today that are not finished

14:59:39 [wendyreid]

+1

15:00:23 [jorydotcom]

.. group is ok moving add'l items from this week to next time

15:00:27 [Judy]

[JB: does anyone disagree with the suggestion I've been making? I can add an issue on this if needed; I have not heard an objection, but neither have I heard anyone respond directly on my suggestion, only other alternative ideas, some of which may also be useful.]

15:00:53 [Ralph]

[I would appreciate an issue with specific wording, Judy]

15:01:05 [jorydotcom]

.. we need to have something by end of August

15:01:26 [jorydotcom]

ada .. would it be ok to get something after #57 is merged

15:01:34 [jorydotcom]

angel .. yes

15:01:53 [jorydotcom]

judy .. also looking for feedback on my suggestion, will add an issue

15:02:08 [jorydotcom]

Ralph .. specific wording would be helpful

15:02:27 [jorydotcom]

.. meeting concludes

15:05:40 [jorydotcom]

question to probably @Ralph - is there a good resource for learning the irc bot commands etc?

15:05:45 [jorydotcom]

I'm not so great at IRC

15:08:58 [Ralph]

Jory, mostly people learn by watching :) but the "Running a Meeting" section of the Chair's Guidebook -- https://www.w3.org/Guide/#run -- has several resources that help to get started

15:09:14 [wendyreid]

jorydotcom: We have this resource we use in publishing :) https://github.com/w3c/publ-bg/wiki/Using-IRC-for-Meetings

15:09:23 [wendyreid]

A little more simplified

15:09:25 [Ralph]

s/dotcom:/dotcom,

15:09:39 [jorydotcom]

TY TY!!!

15:09:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph

15:10:30 [Ralph]

and, as Wendy just noted, each group customizes the "general practices" according to that group's preferences

15:11:16 [Ralph]

scribe: Ralph, Nigel, Jory

15:11:31 [Ralph]

present+ AdaRose

15:11:49 [Ralph]

present+ Jory

15:11:53 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

15:11:53 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, tzviya, Angel, wendyreid, Nigel, Judy, AdaRose, Jory

15:11:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #pwe

15:12:13 [Ralph]

s/+q//g

15:13:06 [Ralph]

s/(+1)/<jorydotcom> +1

15:13:15 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph

15:13:51 [Ralph]

s/Judy .. when/Judy: .. when

15:14:22 [Ralph]

s/angel... I thnk/Angel: I think

15:14:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/07/11-pwe-minutes.html Ralph

15:16:19 [Ralph]

rrsagent, ybe

15:16:19 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'ybe', Ralph. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:16:22 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

15:16:22 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items