16:00:17 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:00:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/28-tt-irc 16:00:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:00:19 Zakim has joined #tt 16:00:21 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:00:21 Date: 28 March 2019 16:00:26 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/28 16:00:33 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/03/28-tt-irc 16:00:42 Present: Nigel 16:00:45 scribe: nigel 16:00:47 Chair: Nigel 16:00:50 Regrets: Andreas 16:01:57 Present+ Glenn, Gary, Pierre 16:02:26 Present+ Matt 16:02:41 Regrets+ Cyril 16:02:48 Topic: This Meeting 16:03:27 Nigel: Hello! [iterates through agenda] 16:03:58 Glenn: I have a couple of items on the profile registry 16:04:01 Nigel: Ok 16:04:45 Present+ Philippe 16:05:47 Nigel: AOB or particular points to make sure we cover today? 16:05:52 group: [silence] 16:06:01 Topic: TTWG Charter 2019 16:06:16 pal has joined #tt 16:07:17 Topic: Add wording permitting TTML3 and a modular approach. charter-timed-text#40 16:07:24 github: https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/pull/40 16:07:55 Nigel: I updated this 2 days ago and @skynavga approved it. 16:08:21 .. Any objections to me merging this now? 16:08:43 group: [no objections] 16:09:03 Nigel: Thanks, I'll merge it now... done. 16:09:12 SUMMARY: Pull Request merged. 16:09:30 Topic: Support live contribution and audio description profiles charter-timed-text#44 16:09:37 github: https://github.com/w3c/charter-timed-text/pull/44 16:10:11 Nigel: Andreas raised a comment that I think I addressed and I addressed my own comments too. 16:10:58 .. Again, I'd like to merge this so the single document is available for review. 16:11:16 Glenn: It'd be nice to merge them all because it's difficult to review the pull requests without a preview mechanism. 16:11:38 Philippe: Sorry I haven't had the time to look into making the preview work yet. 16:11:47 Nigel: Any objections to me merging this? 16:11:52 group: [no objections] 16:12:05 SUMMARY: Pull request merged. 16:12:15 Topic: Other thoughts on the draft charter. 16:12:44 Glenn: There are some references to the SDP-US work which should be taken out of the charter. 16:12:59 .. I presume that the material on TTML2 has been changed to describe 2nd Ed work not the original one. 16:13:02 q+ 16:13:16 -> https://w3c.github.io/charter-timed-text/ Current draft 16:13:54 Nigel: The wording has become more general there to allow new versions of the TTML specification to be published. Please take a look. 16:14:00 Philippe: Is SDP-US still relevant? 16:14:01 ack p 16:14:15 Glenn: It's still published as a WG Note and there's no reason to change that, but we're not doing any work on it. 16:14:23 Philippe: We should list it in Other Deliverables in that case? 16:14:43 Glenn: You want to include past deliverables. 16:14:47 q+ 16:14:58 Philippe: It says "may be updated" and doesn't require any work. [wants to keep it] 16:16:30 Glenn: Ok. In the scope, where it talks about new versions it would be useful to talk about new editions. 16:16:34 Nigel: I think that's covered. 16:16:35 ack pal 16:16:48 Pierre: This needs a whole editorial pass through because this has grown organically over the years. 16:16:49 Glenn: +1 16:17:08 Pierre: I'd be happy to do it. It's difficult to contribute to this because it's convoluted due to the amount of work we've done. 16:17:24 .. My goal would be to make a zero point edit, not change small sections. Really rationalise it. 16:17:31 Glenn: yes, it's not organised very well. 16:17:43 Pierre: It needs to say what we will work on, what we will maintain and specific topics to study. 16:17:53 Glenn: It may make it harder to review because it may look like a bunch of changes. 16:18:05 Pierre: My suggestion is to start from scratch. 16:18:20 Glenn: I agree [ that this would be simpler ] 16:18:48 Philippe: I'm supportive of that. Maintenance of Recommendations doesn't need to be said. 16:18:57 .. We still have the deliverables, which can list the documents to be maintained. 16:19:09 Pierre: At the end of the day people want to know our scope and deliverables. 16:19:11 .. And the dates. 16:19:30 Philippe: Yes, so the sections need to stay the same in term of headers, so we have consistency across charters. 16:19:35 .. The scope section could be simplified. 16:20:14 Nigel: It would have been nice to hear that a month ago! I agree with the idea though. 16:20:34 Pierre: I'm offering. 16:20:50 Nigel: It's formally my role to prepare the draft charter and I'm happy to take all input. The WG needs to agree it before 16:20:53 .. it goes forward. 16:21:50 Philippe: Why don't we let Pierre have a stab at it? 16:22:35 https://www.w3.org/Style/2016/css-2016.html 16:22:41 Nigel: Yes. If you have a stab at that can you and I have a call in the middle of next week to see where we're up to? 16:22:43 Pierre: Sure. 16:23:01 Philippe: The scope section of the CSS WG is way smaller and that's the principle to follow - define the scope to be large 16:23:11 .. to give the WG as much leeway as possible. The rest is mechanic. 16:23:40 Nigel: In that case we should move to the next topic. All the Pull Requests are now merged so it's a good starting point. 16:24:30 .. I've just assigned Pierre issue #46. 16:24:45 Topic: TTML Profile Registry 16:25:01 Glenn: At this point there are no pull requests and there would have been no issues but Cyril opened an issue, #71, 16:25:16 .. asking to put all the information that we had about the combination operators into the media type definition directly 16:25:31 .. whereas previously we had augmented the introduction which is informative. He thinks it should be normative and in 16:25:45 .. the media type definition. We had expressed a desire to avoid a full IANA expert review. 16:26:04 .. He and Mike are not on the call. I'd like to point out we need to get this Note updated on the main TR website for W3C. 16:26:19 .. It'd be nice if we could do that as soon as possible. I'm willing to wait until Cyril and Mike are online to discuss this 16:26:30 .. issue further. I personally don't think we need to do what he is suggesting here. 16:26:59 Nigel: We could update the note now and consider this for a future change. 16:27:03 Glenn: I would go along with that. 16:27:22 .. The last time it was updated on /TR was in 2017. 16:27:31 Nigel: Yes, https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/NOTE-ttml-profile-registry-20170117/ 16:27:40 Glenn: All we need is a resolution and then we can do that. 16:28:47 PROPOSAL: Publish current Editor's Draft of the Profile Registry as a /TR Note and then consider #71 later. 16:28:58 https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/issues/71 16:29:58 Nigel: Any objections on this call to doing this? 16:30:49 .. If we resolve this now there will be 2 weeks review under our Decision Policy. 16:30:57 group: [no objections] 16:31:07 RESOLUTION: Publish current Editor's Draft of the Profile Registry as a /TR Note and then consider #71 later. 16:31:34 Nigel: There's a publishing moratorium coming up - does that apply here? 16:31:46 Philippe: No, we can use automatic publishing. 16:32:06 Topic: WebVTT Implementation report and CR update 16:32:39 Philippe: On the CR update I didn't see any objections to updating the CR and the 2 week has passed, so can we record a decision to publish an updated CR for WebVTT? 16:32:42 Nigel: Yes we can. 16:33:03 Philippe: Decision: update the CR for WebVTT with the draft proposed by Gary 16:33:38 .. I'll take care of the transition request, and take any questions back to Gary. I will try to do it before the publication moratorium. 16:34:14 Nigel: I added to the agenda a status update on the Netflix questions about Japanese language tests, but Cyril isn't on 16:34:21 .. the call so I suggest we skip that for now. 16:34:40 Gary: The IR is in pretty good shape this week. 16:34:45 .. I've been going through the API parsing test. 16:35:01 .. There were a couple of things without 2 implementations but I was able to update vtt.js so now they pass. 16:35:16 .. For Japanese I didn't get to look at it that much but hopefully will have a better idea for next week. 16:35:47 Topic: TTML2 and TTML3 pull requests 16:36:22 Topic: Add module framework (#29). ttml3#30 16:36:28 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml3/pull/30 16:36:53 Glenn: I'm waiting for someone to approve a review on this. 16:37:01 .. The last comments I think were from Pierre a week ago. 16:37:10 .. He suggests that we add this support to TTML2 as well. 16:37:21 .. I think it's okay to consider that and would suggest Pierre open an issue on TTML2 16:37:28 .. asking to backport this pull request to TTML2 2nd Ed. 16:37:39 .. That shouldn't prevent this pull request from going forward. 16:37:50 .. I believe I've addressed the other comments, though I can still deal with other issues. 16:38:33 Nigel: There is an unanswered question, which I asked at https://github.com/w3c/ttml3/pull/30#issuecomment-473956814 16:39:33 .. Which is whether to use "private" and "public" for "unregistered" and "registered". 16:39:52 Glenn: I took as my model the Unicode private use area, which doesn't say anything about visibility, just registration. 16:39:55 q+ 16:40:04 ack pal 16:40:20 Pierre: I still have an outstanding question - I don't understand how processing would be different for private and public. 16:40:23 Glenn: There is none. 16:40:33 Pierre: Then we should not introduce any distinction in the spec. 16:40:51 Glenn: That doesn't follow! We have thousands of statements not testable implementation-wise. 16:41:05 Pierre: Yes and that got us into trouble in the past so I'd rather nip it in the bud now. 16:41:17 .. There is no use for the distinction between public and private. 16:41:35 Glenn: There is if you want to know if a private definition is permitted or not. There's a note that refers to it. 16:41:55 Pierre: I don't understand why technically it matters. 16:42:06 Glenn: Do you recognise the use of a private use area in Unicode? 16:42:11 Pierre: Yes absolutely. 16:42:15 Glenn: That's the model here. 16:42:29 Pierre: This tells people that some codes cannot be used later for public definition. 16:42:35 .. I don't see the parallel here with modules. 16:42:47 Glenn: We define a number of extensibility mechanisms - this is simply another one. 16:43:00 Pierre: It's namespace driven. The allocation of namespaces is done outside this document. 16:43:19 Glenn: One thing we could say with a normative impact is that a private module must not use an officially defined 16:43:22 .. timed text namespace. 16:43:32 Pierre: Sure but that's already defined everywhere anyway. 16:43:50 .. I'm trying to reduce unnecessary complexity. It's additional definitions which are therefore complexity. 16:45:50 q+ 16:46:35 Glenn: I'm willing to remove the public and private definitions but will leave in the note that refers to private modules 16:46:41 .. and just remove the link to the definition. 16:46:48 ack pal 16:46:57 Pierre: Yes that will satisfy that comment. 16:47:07 .. I think we discussed enabling modules but not specifically defining them. 16:47:47 Nigel: +1 - enabling modules doesn't require spec text necessarily. 16:48:12 .. If you take out private and public then that resolves my question. 16:48:20 Glenn: Can I get an approved review if I do that? 16:48:44 Pierre: I'm really more interested in the hooks we put into TTML2 to allow for external specifications. We'll have to wait for that. 16:48:53 .. But in the meantime you've addressed my question and comment on public/private. 16:49:01 Glenn: We can always add it back in if we need it later. 16:49:40 Nigel: The other question is about a module registry. 16:50:10 Glenn: Yes, and I will be drafting it soon. 16:50:47 Nigel: I question if we really need that - a profile will point to the modules that define features it needs. Why do we need something else? 16:50:58 Glenn: I think it's obvious to list the potential modules that can be used. 16:51:16 q+ 16:51:18 .. Getting this pull request completed and merged is a gate to defining some modules. 16:51:44 .. We have a record of taking a modular approach - it is not a good use of time to revisit that. 16:51:47 ack pal 16:51:52 Pierre: The real gate is on TTML2. 16:52:10 Glenn: You've noticed I've opened pull requests on TTML2. Completion of TTML2 is a gate for TTML3. 16:53:30 Nigel: I don't think the modular language is the gate to modules here, it's more the hooks for assigning vocabulary 16:54:14 .. to particular processing approaches. 16:54:30 Glenn: [comment about profiles referring to modules by feature definitions] 16:54:35 Nigel: That's a new topic to discuss later. 16:55:24 Nigel: We have one more TTML2 pull request but not enough time to cover it so I propose to defer it. 16:56:06 Glenn: I would like to resolve #1049. 16:56:18 Nigel: I don't think we can do that quickly - there are insufficient tests for it right now. 16:56:34 Glenn: Request a 2 hour session next week. 16:56:55 Topic: September F2F meeting 16:57:06 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/30 16:57:59 Nigel: I think there's a growing consensus for a meeting at TPAC and another F2F some time before then in the 16:58:08 .. timescale when we will be working towards a CR transition. 16:58:48 .. Any thoughts about when that would be? 16:59:14 Glenn: We need to start CR by early June for that. 16:59:26 Nigel: Previously that was when you were talking about FPWD, wasn't it? 16:59:35 Glenn: [checks timescales with Philippe's tool] 17:00:26 .. Getting to Rec by end of the year we need FPWD by July 9. 17:00:33 .. For CR then the latest we could do it would be Oct 15. 17:01:01 Nigel: We know our processes take longer than this so we need to back it up more, in real world times. 17:01:16 Glenn: Yes, 1st Oct for CR would be a good target, assuming we don't go to a 2nd CR. 17:01:26 Nigel: I expected an earlier target. 17:01:58 .. Beginning of Sep say means FPWD early June. 17:02:01 Glenn: That's reasonable. 17:02:16 .. That could get us to Rec by mid-Nov best case 17:02:37 Nigel: Then a meeting in July or August would make sense. 17:02:44 .. Terrible from a holidays perspective! 17:03:23 .. I think I should look for dates in July. Anyone think that's a terrible idea right now? 17:03:33 Pierre: Driving meeting times through a document timeline is a good idea. 17:03:46 Glenn: I'm hearing "let's wait until we have a FPWD or close" 17:03:59 Pierre: Although, knowing our options, and starting to plan, with a placeholder might help. 17:04:09 .. But yes I agree that we may not be able to make a decision until then. 17:04:24 Glenn: Fukuoka still looks like a good time for meeting. 17:04:45 Pierre: Yes, and it would be awesome if it hadn't been scheduled at such a bad time relative to other industry events. 17:06:10 SUMMARY: Working assumption is meet at Fukuoka and attempt an earlier f2f meeting in line with spec development. 17:06:13 Topic: Meeting close. 17:06:25 Nigel: Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 17:06:31 rrsagent, make minutes 17:06:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/28-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:17:18 s/to particular processing approaches/to particular processing approaches such as saying ittp:fillLineGap should be processed as a style attribute 17:19:00 rrsagent, make minutes 17:19:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/28-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:20:00 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:20:01 rrsagent, make minutes 17:20:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/28-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:20:30 zakim, who was on the call 17:20:30 I don't understand 'who was on the call', nigel 17:20:36 zakim, who was present 17:20:36 I don't understand 'who was present', nigel 17:20:39 zakim, help 17:20:39 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 17:20:41 Some of the commands I know are: 17:20:41 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 17:20:41 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 17:20:41 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 17:20:41 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 17:20:42 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 17:20:42 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 17:20:42 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 17:20:42 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 17:20:42 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 17:20:43 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 17:20:43 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 17:20:43 list conferences - reports the active conferences 17:20:44 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 17:20:44 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 17:20:44 I last learned something new on $Date: 2015/08/27 12:24:56 $ 17:20:56 zakim, who's here? 17:20:56 Present: Nigel, Glenn, Gary, Pierre, Matt, Philippe 17:20:58 On IRC I see RRSAgent, nigel, github-bot, slightlyoff, mdjp, gkatsev, trackbot 17:21:27 zakim, list participants 17:21:27 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Glenn, Gary, Pierre, Matt, Philippe 20:37:48 Zakim has left #tt