IRC log of audio-description on 2019-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-irc

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11:05:04 [nigel]

Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-irc

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rrsagent, make logs public

11:05:28 [nigel]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio-description/2019Mar/0003.html

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scribe: nigel

11:05:34 [nigel]

Chair: Nigel

11:06:13 [nigel]

Present: Nigel, Tracy, Órin

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Topic: This meeting

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Nigel: [iterates through agenda]

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.. Any other business?

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group: [no other business]

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Topic: Issues

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11:17:47 [nigel]

Nigel: We have 4 open issues, only one of which is really important

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Present- Tracy

11:18:01 [nigel]

Present+ Tracey

11:18:15 [nigel]

-> https://github.com/w3c/adpt/issues Issues on ADPT

11:18:39 [nigel]

Nigel: Issue 4 is typos, following Cyril's review

11:19:01 [nigel]

.. Issue 3 is another editorial task fixing an HTML fragment id

11:19:31 [nigel]

.. Issue 2 was raised by me, and its about removing a note about DFXP, which is again mainly editorial

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.. Issue 1 is the main one I wanted to discuss

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-> https://github.com/w3c/adpt/issues/1

11:26:09 [nigel]

Nigel: My first list of features only included media time, but the first edit of the document includes media time,

11:26:15 [nigel]

.. clock time and smpte timecode.

11:26:37 [nigel]

Tracey: Editing AD scripts is easier from a practical point of view if they use smpte timecode

11:26:58 [nigel]

Nigel: My reference was that IMSC for subtitles only supports media time.

11:27:14 [nigel]

.. Also, even with media timebase you can still use frame based time expressions.

11:27:37 [nigel]

.. The question is then whether the reference point is the beginning of the media (e.g. the equivalent of, say 10:00:00:00

11:27:45 [nigel]

.. in timecode), or the zero timecode point.

11:31:50 [nigel]

.. There have been issues reported in the past about the use of smpte timecode especially in discontinuous mode,

11:32:12 [nigel]

.. if the burned in timecode in video doesn't reflect the timecode data, for example. Also the complexity of the

11:32:33 [nigel]

.. AD files themselves would be increased because relative times cannot be used inside the document, so every

11:32:49 [nigel]

.. time would have to be replaced by a fixed non-relative smpte timecode label.

11:33:13 [nigel]

.. I discussed this with Yella Umbrella a few weeks ago and the conclusion was they could live without SMPTE timecode.

11:33:33 [nigel]

.. My proposal is to simplify the spec as much as possible and only support media timebase, and possibly include

11:33:46 [nigel]

.. some examples of how they could work with SMPTE timecode-like values in them.

11:34:58 [nigel]

.. I could propose use of some metadata to signal the basis of time expressions.

11:35:18 [nigel]

Oran: I tend to agree, it's unnecessary to include smpte timebase in the document.

11:35:28 [nigel]

s/Órin/Óran/g

11:35:38 [nigel]

s/Oran/Óran/g

11:36:57 [nigel]

Nigel: Is there a need for clock times too?

11:37:05 [nigel]

Óran: I can't imagine there is for AD.

11:37:08 [nigel]

Tracey: Not for AD

11:37:15 [nigel]

Nigel: OK we're in agreement here for now, so just for the minutes, we have a (small) consensus to support media timebase only,

11:37:35 [nigel]

.. so we can record that and if anyone disagrees let them come back via the issue or the reflector.

11:38:36 [nigel]

Nigel: That's all the issues.

11:38:49 [nigel]

Topic: Status with TTWG

11:41:07 [nigel]

Nigel: Sorry for missing this before!

11:43:13 [nigel]

.. W3C process means that only Working Groups can publish Recommendations, i.e. standards.

11:43:31 [nigel]

.. Timed Text Working Group (TTWG) works on TTML specifications, and I also Chair that.

11:43:45 [nigel]

.. I proposed that TTWG adopts this and that proposal was accepted, for work in 2019.

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.. The TTWG Charter is being revised to include it, hopefully to be confirmed in May or June.

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.. That Charter will refer to our document as the basis.

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.. So we have a few weeks or so to get the document in as good a state as possible.

11:45:12 [nigel]

Topic: Speed scan through document

11:45:42 [nigel]

Nigel: Any initial high level comments on the document?

11:45:57 [nigel]

Óran: Having trouble navigating through the page.

11:46:05 [nigel]

Tracey: I will go through it with Óran.

11:46:25 [nigel]

Nigel: Is there anything we can do to help that?

11:46:40 [nigel]

Óran: The way the document is labelled and the navigation system works is a bit cumbersome.

11:47:09 [nigel]

Nigel: I'd like to know more about that.

11:47:27 [nigel]

Óran: Like a lot of web pages, their layout is not very well formatted for use with screen readers so navigating headings

11:47:35 [nigel]

.. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot.

11:49:19 [nigel]

Nigel: It would be super-helpful to be able to feed any issues back to W3C and to the team maintaining the Respec tool.

11:50:52 [nigel]

Nigel: [iterates through document]

11:51:02 [nigel]

.. Seems like the Introduction should go as close to the top as possible.

11:51:06 [nigel]

Óran: Yes!

11:51:40 [nigel]

Nigel: I would also like to move one or more of the examples into the introduction to help readers understand the

11:51:46 [nigel]

.. kind of document that is being specified.

11:52:12 [nigel]

Óran: Yes.

11:53:38 [nigel]

Nigel: Then there's a section on Workflow and another on Requirements. Some of the workflow can probably move to

11:53:49 [nigel]

.. the Introduction, if it helps understand the scope.

11:53:55 [nigel]

Tracey: Yes, the diagram especially.

11:54:10 [nigel]

Nigel: Then the detail, and the list of requirements I would put into an appendix.

11:54:16 [nigel]

Tracey: Yes

11:54:54 [nigel]

Óran: Yes, I can't see the diagram of course!

11:55:21 [nigel]

Nigel: True - that's why there's a table listing the workflow steps, though it's not a 100% perfect replacement, more an

11:55:25 [nigel]

.. extra layer of detail.

11:56:03 [nigel]

.. Then we have the Profile section itself, which is very short, and just references the Constraints section.

11:56:49 [nigel]

.. The Constraints section is the main body of the specification. It describes the encoding, namespaces, extensibility,

11:57:15 [nigel]

.. synchonisation, profile signalling, and most importantly of all, the set of permitted or prohibited TTML features.

11:57:39 [nigel]

.. Those features are the most important thing! I'd hope to move those closer to the top of the document too.

11:57:58 [nigel]

.. In IMSC, for example, they're in section 6, here they've got down to section 9.

11:59:12 [nigel]

.. then there are appendices, the examples, Web Audio mixing, acknowledgements and references.

11:59:20 [nigel]

.. Any other observations about the document structure?

11:59:27 [nigel]

Tracey: It's the most detail I've seen.

11:59:40 [nigel]

Óran: Is embedding audio description something to be discussed?

12:00:45 [nigel]

Nigel: I think the scope of this is upstream of embedding - the goal here is to define the script and the audio mixing,

12:01:08 [nigel]

.. which can be used to generate the audio for embedding. There are already other standards for embedding, so in that

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.. sense it is not needed.

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Óran: Yes

12:03:01 [nigel]

Nigel: I wouldn't rule out in-band carriage of the TTML AD script as a piece of work in the future, to provide the script

12:03:12 [nigel]

.. and audio to a player for native playback or screen reader use, for example.

12:04:46 [nigel]

..

12:05:02 [nigel]

.. Okay, that's our agenda, and we're a bit over time. I will turn those into editing actions and follow up with John Birch.

12:05:10 [nigel]

.. If he can't do the editing then I will try to.

12:06:05 [nigel]

.. Thanks for joining. [adjourns meeting]

12:06:08 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:06:08 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel

12:07:31 [nigel]

Meeting: Audio Description Community Group

12:07:49 [nigel]

Date: 20 Mar 2019

12:07:55 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:07:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel

12:09:19 [nigel]

s/can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot./.. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot.

12:09:54 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:09:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel

12:11:12 [nigel]

s/.. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot./Óran: can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot.

12:11:13 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:11:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel

12:15:47 [nigel]

scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

12:15:48 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

12:15:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel

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