11:04:36 RRSAgent has joined #audio-description 11:04:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-irc 11:04:46 Zakim has joined #audio-description 11:05:04 Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-irc 11:05:08 rrsagent, make logs public 11:05:28 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio-description/2019Mar/0003.html 11:05:32 scribe: nigel 11:05:34 Chair: Nigel 11:06:13 Present: Nigel, Tracy, Órin 11:07:19 Topic: This meeting 11:07:31 Nigel: [iterates through agenda] 11:08:14 .. Any other business? 11:09:51 group: [no other business] 11:11:08 Topic: Issues 11:17:41 oran has joined #audio-description 11:17:47 Nigel: We have 4 open issues, only one of which is really important 11:17:57 Present- Tracy 11:18:01 Present+ Tracey 11:18:15 -> https://github.com/w3c/adpt/issues Issues on ADPT 11:18:39 Nigel: Issue 4 is typos, following Cyril's review 11:19:01 .. Issue 3 is another editorial task fixing an HTML fragment id 11:19:31 .. Issue 2 was raised by me, and its about removing a note about DFXP, which is again mainly editorial 11:20:57 .. Issue 1 is the main one I wanted to discuss 11:21:02 -> https://github.com/w3c/adpt/issues/1 11:26:09 Nigel: My first list of features only included media time, but the first edit of the document includes media time, 11:26:15 .. clock time and smpte timecode. 11:26:37 Tracey: Editing AD scripts is easier from a practical point of view if they use smpte timecode 11:26:58 Nigel: My reference was that IMSC for subtitles only supports media time. 11:27:14 .. Also, even with media timebase you can still use frame based time expressions. 11:27:37 .. The question is then whether the reference point is the beginning of the media (e.g. the equivalent of, say 10:00:00:00 11:27:45 .. in timecode), or the zero timecode point. 11:31:50 .. There have been issues reported in the past about the use of smpte timecode especially in discontinuous mode, 11:32:12 .. if the burned in timecode in video doesn't reflect the timecode data, for example. Also the complexity of the 11:32:33 .. AD files themselves would be increased because relative times cannot be used inside the document, so every 11:32:49 .. time would have to be replaced by a fixed non-relative smpte timecode label. 11:33:13 .. I discussed this with Yella Umbrella a few weeks ago and the conclusion was they could live without SMPTE timecode. 11:33:33 .. My proposal is to simplify the spec as much as possible and only support media timebase, and possibly include 11:33:46 .. some examples of how they could work with SMPTE timecode-like values in them. 11:34:58 .. I could propose use of some metadata to signal the basis of time expressions. 11:35:18 Oran: I tend to agree, it's unnecessary to include smpte timebase in the document. 11:35:28 s/Órin/Óran/g 11:35:38 s/Oran/Óran/g 11:36:57 Nigel: Is there a need for clock times too? 11:37:05 Óran: I can't imagine there is for AD. 11:37:08 Tracey: Not for AD 11:37:15 Nigel: OK we're in agreement here for now, so just for the minutes, we have a (small) consensus to support media timebase only, 11:37:35 .. so we can record that and if anyone disagrees let them come back via the issue or the reflector. 11:38:36 Nigel: That's all the issues. 11:38:49 Topic: Status with TTWG 11:41:07 Nigel: Sorry for missing this before! 11:43:13 .. W3C process means that only Working Groups can publish Recommendations, i.e. standards. 11:43:31 .. Timed Text Working Group (TTWG) works on TTML specifications, and I also Chair that. 11:43:45 .. I proposed that TTWG adopts this and that proposal was accepted, for work in 2019. 11:43:58 .. The TTWG Charter is being revised to include it, hopefully to be confirmed in May or June. 11:44:08 .. That Charter will refer to our document as the basis. 11:44:29 .. So we have a few weeks or so to get the document in as good a state as possible. 11:45:12 Topic: Speed scan through document 11:45:42 Nigel: Any initial high level comments on the document? 11:45:57 Óran: Having trouble navigating through the page. 11:46:05 Tracey: I will go through it with Óran. 11:46:25 Nigel: Is there anything we can do to help that? 11:46:40 Óran: The way the document is labelled and the navigation system works is a bit cumbersome. 11:47:09 Nigel: I'd like to know more about that. 11:47:27 Óran: Like a lot of web pages, their layout is not very well formatted for use with screen readers so navigating headings 11:47:35 .. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot. 11:49:19 Nigel: It would be super-helpful to be able to feed any issues back to W3C and to the team maintaining the Respec tool. 11:50:52 Nigel: [iterates through document] 11:51:02 .. Seems like the Introduction should go as close to the top as possible. 11:51:06 Óran: Yes! 11:51:40 Nigel: I would also like to move one or more of the examples into the introduction to help readers understand the 11:51:46 .. kind of document that is being specified. 11:52:12 Óran: Yes. 11:53:38 Nigel: Then there's a section on Workflow and another on Requirements. Some of the workflow can probably move to 11:53:49 .. the Introduction, if it helps understand the scope. 11:53:55 Tracey: Yes, the diagram especially. 11:54:10 Nigel: Then the detail, and the list of requirements I would put into an appendix. 11:54:16 Tracey: Yes 11:54:54 Óran: Yes, I can't see the diagram of course! 11:55:21 Nigel: True - that's why there's a table listing the workflow steps, though it's not a 100% perfect replacement, more an 11:55:25 .. extra layer of detail. 11:56:03 .. Then we have the Profile section itself, which is very short, and just references the Constraints section. 11:56:49 .. The Constraints section is the main body of the specification. It describes the encoding, namespaces, extensibility, 11:57:15 .. synchonisation, profile signalling, and most importantly of all, the set of permitted or prohibited TTML features. 11:57:39 .. Those features are the most important thing! I'd hope to move those closer to the top of the document too. 11:57:58 .. In IMSC, for example, they're in section 6, here they've got down to section 9. 11:59:12 .. then there are appendices, the examples, Web Audio mixing, acknowledgements and references. 11:59:20 .. Any other observations about the document structure? 11:59:27 Tracey: It's the most detail I've seen. 11:59:40 Óran: Is embedding audio description something to be discussed? 12:00:45 Nigel: I think the scope of this is upstream of embedding - the goal here is to define the script and the audio mixing, 12:01:08 .. which can be used to generate the audio for embedding. There are already other standards for embedding, so in that 12:01:13 .. sense it is not needed. 12:01:18 Óran: Yes 12:03:01 Nigel: I wouldn't rule out in-band carriage of the TTML AD script as a piece of work in the future, to provide the script 12:03:12 .. and audio to a player for native playback or screen reader use, for example. 12:04:46 .. 12:05:02 .. Okay, that's our agenda, and we're a bit over time. I will turn those into editing actions and follow up with John Birch. 12:05:10 .. If he can't do the editing then I will try to. 12:06:05 .. Thanks for joining. [adjourns meeting] 12:06:08 rrsagent, make minutes 12:06:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel 12:07:31 Meeting: Audio Description Community Group 12:07:49 Date: 20 Mar 2019 12:07:55 rrsagent, make minutes 12:07:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel 12:09:19 s/can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot./.. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot. 12:09:54 rrsagent, make minutes 12:09:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel 12:11:12 s/.. can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot./Óran: can be a bit tricky. I encounter this quite a lot. 12:11:13 rrsagent, make minutes 12:11:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel 12:15:47 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 12:15:48 rrsagent, make minutes 12:15:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/20-audio-description-minutes.html nigel 13:35:41 Zakim has left #audio-description