20:53:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:53:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-irc
20:53:39 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
20:53:57 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 13 March 2019 21:00 UTC
20:54:04 <DaveBrowning> chair: DaveBrowning
20:54:58 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, make logs public
20:55:18 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:55:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:56:09 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
20:56:29 <DaveBrowning> regrets: Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens, Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson
20:56:33 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:56:39 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:56:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:56:42 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:56:58 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.03.13
20:57:07 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:57:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:04:03 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:12 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:32 <annette_g> Hi, is there a webex for this?
21:05:35 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:46 <alejandra> present+
21:06:26 <annette_g> The agenda links to CSIRO webex, which comes up as cancelled or ended.
21:06:30 <SimonCox> present+
21:06:37 <DaveBrowning> link is https://csiro.webex.com/csiro/j.php?MTID=m7f5ece41d26d5e36c16af8c20faadc15
21:07:00 <SimonCox> present+
21:07:32 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
21:07:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:07:42 <annette_g> erg, need a pw
21:08:07 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:08:36 <alejandra> * pw on the other tab
21:08:43 <alejandra> * Simon sent it to you as a private message
21:08:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:09:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:10:51 <DaveBrowning> try this link https://csiro.webex.com/csiro/j.php?MTID=m7f5ece41d26d5e36c16af8c20faadc15
21:11:19 <SimonCox> scribenick: SimonCox
21:11:34 <SimonCox> Topic: confirm agenda
21:11:39 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.03.13
21:12:26 <alejandra> +1, point 3 is key
21:12:31 <Makx> present+
21:12:52 <PWinstanley> present+
21:12:53 <SimonCox> Need to focus on resolving issues, no new features
21:12:59 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:12:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:13:06 <SimonCox> main concern is annette_g comment on services
21:13:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:13:39 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:13:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:13:39 <SimonCox> annette_g comment is https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/805
21:13:47 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:13:50 <SimonCox> +1
21:13:52 <Makx> +1
21:13:52 <alejandra> +1
21:13:53 <PWinstanley> +1
21:13:56 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:14:05 <annette_g> alejandra sent around a better link for viewing
21:14:05 <SimonCox> topic: approve minutes
21:14:07 <annette_g> +1
21:14:26 <alejandra> the link is in the PR
21:14:28 <annette_g> present+
21:14:37 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:14:39 <DaveBrowning> minutes at https://www.w3.org/2019/03/06-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:14:43 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:14:47 <SimonCox> +1
21:14:48 <PWinstanley> +1
21:14:48 <alejandra> +1
21:14:54 <DaveBrowning> 0 (not present)
21:14:56 <annette_g> +0 (not present)
21:14:57 <Makx> +1
21:15:07 <SimonCox> resolved: minutes of last meeting approved
21:15:14 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:15:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:15:28 <SimonCox> topic: Services design
21:15:51 <alejandra> s/ * pw on the other tab/
21:16:06 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:16:06 <alejandra> s/* Simon sent it to you as a private message/
21:16:42 <AndreaPerego> topic: Annette's proposal on services/API
21:16:46 <AndreaPerego>   https://raw.githack.com/agreiner/dxwg/annette-dataservices/dcat/index.html#Class:Data_API
21:17:08 <AndreaPerego> s/topic: Annette's proposal on services/API//
21:17:17 <SimonCox> annette_g: current design does not serve the purpose of cataloguing services
21:17:22 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:17:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:17:33 <SimonCox> ... DDS is specialization that has no peers
21:17:52 <AndreaPerego> s/API//
21:17:53 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:17:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:17:57 <AndreaPerego> s/API//
21:17:59 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:17:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:18:23 <SimonCox> ... DDS is ambiguous - is it only for distributions? or is it for any service?
21:18:46 <SimonCox> ... since any data service will serve distributions of some form
21:18:55 <SimonCox> ... too ambiguous, too readily changed
21:19:29 <SimonCox> q+
21:19:54 <alejandra> +q
21:20:15 <SimonCox> ,,, change structure subtly to differentiate
21:20:24 <AndreaPerego> s/,,,/.../
21:21:31 <SimonCox> ... does not cover UIs, does not cover typical user questions
21:21:57 <SimonCox> ... propose data service model that provide clear and practical distinction begtween application service (UI?) and API
21:22:01 <PWinstanley> q+
21:22:02 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:22:26 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:22:53 <SimonCox> ... don't require switching classes: DDS is really not needed? but API vs UI is.
21:23:13 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
21:23:19 <AndreaPerego> scribenick: AndreaPerego
21:23:24 <alejandra> SimonCox: I had the most to do with designing the current proposal
21:23:43 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: The current proposal displays my experience, and to cover the use cases I am aware of.
21:24:07 <AndreaPerego> ... If you check the first example (5.9) and the more extended example (D.3)
21:24:37 <AndreaPerego> ... I would ask you can show how the examples are reshaped according to your proposal.
21:24:44 <AndreaPerego> annette_g: I think I did that.
21:24:50 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://raw.githack.com/agreiner/dxwg/annette-dataservices/dcat/index.html#a-dataset-available-from-a-service
21:25:11 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: We did have the discussion about DataService vs DataDistributionService
21:25:34 <alejandra> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/annette-dataservices/dcat/index.html#a-dataset-available-from-a-service
21:25:39 <AndreaPerego> ... I agree with you that any data service may end up being a data distribution service
21:25:58 <alejandra> the new example is probably somwhere else? as this is the same as before: https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/annette-dataservices/dcat/index.html#a-dataset-available-from-a-service
21:26:19 <AndreaPerego> ... However this reflect the fact that there are services which are not bound to specific datasets, though they provide data processing, visualisation, etc.
21:26:31 <DaveBrowning> Yes, we need to use the https://raw.githack.com/agreiner/dxwg/annette-dataservices/dcat/index.html#a-dataset-available-from-a-service link
21:26:39 <AndreaPerego> annette_g: Are you thinking of service where people can upload data?
21:26:48 <AndreaPerego> SimonCox: Yes, but there are also other cases.
21:26:52 <DaveBrowning> and https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fdxwg%2Fdcat%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.githack.com%2Fagreiner%2Fdxwg%2Fannette-dataservices%2Fdcat%2Findex.html for diff
21:27:09 <AndreaPerego> ... Probably the problem is the name of the class that may be misleading.
21:27:25 <AndreaPerego> annette_g: I would agree that people should know the difference between the two.
21:27:29 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:28:02 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:28:15 <SimonCox> annette_g: don't need subclass, just presence or absence of 'servesDataset' link
21:28:22 <AndreaPerego> scribenick: SimonCox
21:28:29 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:28:35 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:28:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:29:01 <SimonCox> alejandra: part of the problem may be that we are still unclear about definition of 'distribution'
21:29:40 <SimonCox> ... differentiation between application and API is not clear - need further clarifications :-(
21:29:51 <SimonCox> ... but now running out of time
21:30:18 <SimonCox> ... propose: retain 'DataService', but don't have more details
21:30:19 <SimonCox> q+
21:30:25 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:30:28 <AndreaPerego> +1 to alejandra's proposal
21:30:50 <SimonCox> ... improve DCAT with class for services, but don't model it now in more detail
21:31:29 <SimonCox> annette_g: sharp distinction between service for programmatic access, and service for human access
21:32:06 <SimonCox> ... can select easire
21:32:51 <SimonCox> alejandra: services are the same, just different ways of accessing them
21:33:06 <AndreaPerego> Exactly.
21:34:28 <alejandra> I don't think we need two classes
21:34:37 <alejandra> to distinguish APIs and other services
21:35:38 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
21:35:43 <SimonCox> landingpageURL vs endpointURL is the distinction between UI and API!
21:36:13 <SimonCox> s/landingpageURL/landingPage/
21:36:52 <SimonCox> PWinstanley: it will be difficult to keep up with the detail of emerging APIs
21:36:59 <SimonCox> ... e.g. netflix
21:37:21 <SimonCox> ... so perhaps we can't try to specify too much detail in API descriptions
21:37:47 <SimonCox> ... 'API' ties it down to a way of thinking which is changing
21:38:01 <alejandra> +q
21:38:43 <SimonCox> annette_g: netflix example is good - UI and API are very distinct
21:39:29 <SimonCox> ... not specific to REST API
21:39:58 <alejandra> it is the same catalog entry (a service) with an API and a landing page
21:40:09 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
21:40:09 <SimonCox> ... need separate catalog entries for the documentation (landingPage) and API (endpoint)
21:40:33 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: didn't understand background of annette_g proposal
21:40:49 <SimonCox> ... was assuming service=API!
21:41:17 <SimonCox> ... use-cases from geospatial are all APIs
21:42:00 <SimonCox> ... in Europe, for geospatial services, the main problem was that people were finding a dataset, with link to service which was an XML document
21:42:18 <SimonCox> ... people outside geospatial were nto familar with this
21:42:36 <SimonCox> ... so this was the main issue, and how to make it machine-actionable
21:42:46 <alejandra> q?
21:42:50 <SimonCox> ... enabling user-agents to make it transparent
21:43:38 <SimonCox> ... so they know e.g. if it is a WMS, they can then open a client app which knows how to bind to a WMS (which is only described in an XML document)
21:44:07 <SimonCox> ... (the XMl document is on the web as a 'capabilities' description, with all the query parameters)
21:45:22 <SimonCox> ... in geospatial there has been distinction between the (i) endpoint (ii) description of the service (XML document) and (sometimes) (iii) a UI (landing page)
21:45:38 <SimonCox> ... endpoint = API
21:45:59 <SimonCox> ... long narrative of how geospatial clients bind to services
21:46:20 <SimonCox> q?
21:47:11 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:48:26 <SimonCox> ... generally agree that can have separate pointers to endpoint and UI, but not (yet) as distinct classes
21:48:41 <annette_g> q+
21:48:56 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
21:49:10 <SimonCox> view-source:http://linked.bodc.ac.uk/sparql/
21:51:41 <PWinstanley> +1 to the alejandra  proposal
21:52:01 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:52:10 <alejandra> I was proposing to drop DataDistributionService but leaving DataService and its properties
21:53:13 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:54:15 <SimonCox> SimonCox: 1. alejandra proposal would retain all the service properties but only on one DS class 2. sub-classes of DS are premature at this stage, particularly in view of PWinstanley contention that service models are changing
21:54:34 <SimonCox> alejandra: yes, collapse to a single class
21:55:00 <SimonCox> ... but some services have multiple APIs and UIs all on the same service
21:55:22 <SimonCox> Proposed: 1. collapse service hierarchy to one class
21:55:29 <DaveBrowning> ack annette_g
21:55:47 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:56:16 <SimonCox> annette_g: would still need q+
21:57:07 <PWinstanley> is there a space for a qualified relation here?
21:57:20 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:58:05 <SimonCox> SimonCox: it is up to the service provider to decide whether to make multiple entries in a catalog for a service, but can all use the same class
22:00:21 <SimonCox> alejandra: DS class allows for different instances or one DS instance with different URLs for landingPage and APIs
22:00:36 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:01:36 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: may have alternative APIs on the same 'service', so yes, may need multiple entries
22:01:54 <SimonCox> ... so that endpointURL and endpointDescription is coupled in each case
22:02:42 <SimonCox> ... concerned to conflate service (API) with webpage that provides UI access.
22:03:45 <SimonCox> ... sees merit in separating notion of service and notion of web-application
22:04:35 <SimonCox> q+
22:04:43 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:04:50 <SimonCox> ... risk that extension point will be used inconsistently
22:05:18 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
22:05:27 <alejandra> SimonCox: at the moment, we don't have a class which describes UIs
22:05:47 <alejandra> ... we do have a link (landingpage link) to a web page about data services or datasets
22:05:59 <alejandra> ... at the moment, it has been out of scope the notion of a data application
22:06:16 <alejandra> ... the model that is in the ED is only attempting to provide just enough information about an API
22:06:30 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:06:35 <alejandra> ... is this discussion based on a mistaken assumption?
22:06:56 <alejandra> annette_g: it depends if you define a data application as a data service
22:07:01 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:07:39 <SimonCox> web-application (UI) is out of scope for DCAT?
22:07:54 <SimonCox> dcat:Dataservice is only for APIs
22:08:22 <SimonCox> dcat:landingPage is a link, but does not describe a web-application (UI)
22:09:41 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: developer needs link to API, and then either machine-actionable or human-usable documentation
22:10:19 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
22:10:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
22:10:38 <SimonCox> q+
22:10:47 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:11:38 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: gives more examples of how it works for geospatial data distributions and services
22:12:56 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:12:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:13:06 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: this has been a constructive meeting as it has shaken out the differences of perspective
22:13:32 <SimonCox> ... but we are running out of time, so what can we get done now?
22:13:37 <SimonCox> q?
22:13:49 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
22:14:35 <alejandra> SimonCox: annette_g's use case is interesting
22:15:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to alejandra and andreas' proposal ( get rid of subclassing for DataService), and don't discuss sub classing or postpone it to the evergreen group or dcat profile after that we have "tested" the simple structure against the examples discussed tonight
22:15:13 <alejandra> ... I got to understand that what we are discussing was not being considered before
22:16:09 <SimonCox> q+
22:16:40 <DaveBrowning> ack SimonCox
22:16:41 <alejandra> annette_g: is the proposal covering all that my proposal covered?
22:17:02 <alejandra> SimonCox: I think the answer would be no, but it would provide an extension point
22:18:03 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: however we got here, we are out of time
22:18:46 <SimonCox> annette_g: thinnks her proposal satisfies AndreaPerego requirements
22:19:11 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: service-interface is probably not a sub-class of data-service
22:19:34 <PWinstanley> Presumably a data service (the subsetting / enrichment / etc service) can be provided through many interfaces
22:19:54 <SimonCox> ... 'interface' is a separate class, perhaps as a distinct sub-class of dcat:Resource?
22:20:38 <SimonCox> annette_g: OpenDAP is a kind of service that allows to navigate through distributions in a UI
22:20:41 <alejandra> https://www.opendap.org/
22:21:17 <SimonCox> ... netflix is not the same.
22:21:45 <alejandra> +q
22:21:55 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
22:22:00 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: what can we do to progress?
22:22:09 <SimonCox> alejandra: we need to start closing stuff!
22:23:16 <SimonCox> ... 2 different understandings - thought that DS might cover both Data Application and Data API, but AndreaPerego (and SimonCox ) suggest maybe not
22:24:45 <alejandra> +q
22:25:09 <SimonCox> alejandra: suggest DCAT v1.1 has one dcat:DataService class, refinements to come in future.
22:25:13 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
22:25:35 <SimonCox> alejandra: data applications was not in the original Use Case analysis
22:25:48 <DaveBrowning> q+
22:25:58 <SimonCox> SimonCox: data applications are out of scope in this version of DCAT
22:26:48 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: add Data Applications in the future as part of the rolling/evolving DCAT specification
22:26:57 <alejandra>  we have a roadmap for future versions
22:28:52 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:28:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> let's have a vote...
22:29:00 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:29:05 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
22:29:13 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:29:57 <SimonCox> Proposal: remove dcat:DataDistributionService as separate class, move properties and links to dcat:DataService,
22:30:04 <SimonCox> +1
22:30:12 <annette_g> We would have to move servesDataset to DataService
22:30:26 <SimonCox> yes
22:30:47 <AndreaPerego> +1
22:30:53 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
22:31:10 <PWinstanley> +1
22:31:11 <DaveBrowning> +1
22:31:12 <annette_g> +1
22:31:16 <alejandra> 'move properties and links to dcat:DataService' implies moving servesDataset to DataService
22:31:21 <alejandra> +1
22:31:23 <SimonCox> yes
22:31:36 <alejandra> +q
22:31:40 <SimonCox> resolved: remove dcat:DataDistributionService as separate class, move properties and links to dcat:DataService
22:31:47 <DaveBrowning> ack ale
22:31:50 <riccardoAlbertoni>  RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:31:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
22:31:51 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:31:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:32:28 <SimonCox> alejandra: need CR in two weeks - move outstanding issues to future milestone
22:33:06 <AndreaPerego> q+
22:33:26 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: will tidy up milestones so we can tell plenary what plans are in detail.
22:33:28 <DaveBrowning> ack and
22:33:33 <DaveBrowning> ack AndreaPerego
22:33:46 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: unclear what will happen past 1.1?
22:33:55 <annette_g> new charter, I think
22:34:01 <SimonCox> ... does it include a 6-month extension? what is process?
22:34:21 <alejandra> milestone is now 'DCAT CR': https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/milestone/14
22:34:46 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: process was not fully explained, merely alluded to by Phillipe in yesterday's plenary
22:35:30 <SimonCox> ... not clear if formal charter, membership, etc.
22:35:49 <SimonCox> ... but this does allows us to focus on v1.1
22:36:18 <SimonCox> AndreaPerego: need clarifications on process
22:36:41 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: will explain how we plan to work in the next report to plenary
22:36:55 <PWinstanley> we are talking to phillipe
22:37:36 <PWinstanley> Phillipe is advising on procedures and routes to solving our overloaded state
22:37:45 <SimonCox> DaveBrowning: 'Evergreen standards' is a goal of the W3C advisory Board
22:38:01 <SimonCox> ... with DXWG/DCAT as the prototype
22:38:02 <annette_g> yes
22:39:31 <SimonCox> rrsagent, generate minutes v2
22:39:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
22:39:33 <riccardoAlbertoni> Thanks !!!!
22:39:46 <annette_g> Thanks, all!!
22:39:48 <PWinstanley> night night!  Bye
22:46:02 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:46:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/03/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
23:29:00 <annette_g> annette_g has joined #dxwgdcat