<scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
George: I sent out minutes from
last time along with a link to the recording
... minutes approved
... I wanted to remind us about the scope
... we want to deal with inline light chemistry, like H2O
... I need to leave the call halfway through
... we're looking at some of the examples
... Volker sent out some links
... that helped in this first thing that we could look at
... I did go to the Aspirin and it was tricky to get into the
item with the screenreader
... tab didn't get into it, but I did manage
volker: normally you can tap into
it and then press A
... it works fairly reliably
... there are problems with voiceover in safari which takes
over cursor keys
... or if you're in the wrong browse mode
George: help us understand the
technology
... is it SVG? MathJax?
volker: the original work comes
from image analysis
... you figure out what the chemistry is
<CharlesL> https://progressiveaccess.com/chemistry/generic.html?mole=data/aspirin-enr
volker: an SVG is generated, very
heirarchical
... grouped in a chemically meaninful way
... and they are being annotated with shadow DOM and CML
... we break up the molecule into the component parts--rings,
chains
... they are automatically named
... you get the nav structure to navigate through the
molecule
... you can't do it in SVG alone, but you can embed a lot of
info in SVG
... there are two types of notes
... there's an expert mode and a novice mode
... we worked with chemistry teachers
... and we've tested at a college for the blind
... "how would I describe things over the phone"
... it's multilingual
... I've given some presentations about this over the years
George: how is the navigation overlaid on the SVG?
Volker: it's a bit of JS magic,
aria role=presentation takes over from screenreader
... things pushed into a live region
... we've tested with most screenreaders
George: once you have an
SVG...
... you started with an image and used OCR, to get SVG
... then you created a navigation... the voicing of this, is it
through aria?
volker: yes
... it's a 2-step process
... you do the image analyisis, OCR, etc and put together the
basic molecole
... then you do the semantic enrichment process
... the rules are quite robust
George: questions?
jasonjgw: a couple of
comments
... I found the aspirin example to be valuable
... worked well in voiceover on safari on mac
... first, the navigation was heirarchical but the structure of
the molecule with a graph structure that had cycles
... is there a way to follow the non-heirarchical references
between nodes in the graph structure in the navigation
model
volker: we've experimented with a
number of navigation techniques
... one was an infinite navigation, stepping around a
ring
... or you could steop out of a ring on a low level into a
functional group
... the kids we experimented with found that confusing, and
they got lost
... so you go up, over, and down, which helps people keep their
bearings
... other ways could still be done as options
... we tried a windows navigation--northwest,
northeast--following the page
... that didn't help low-vision kids
... they got confused
... the simple model worked the best
jasonjgw: thanks
... I'm wondering whether there might be a way to make that
navigation model slightly more complex
... to allow those references that do introduce cycles to be
followed
... one or two additional operations
... that discussion would be worth having
... I also want to ask about the larger contexts
... practices followed by publishers, making structures
available on the web
... are providers of chem material likely to make this kind of
thing available on the web
... how could this group facilitate that?
... they'd be starting from a semantically rich version, then
converting to SVG + interaction support
... from a standards perspective, what should we be doing?
George: that's a bigger
question
... that's a question for publishers
jasonjgw: yes, but it's partly
about how volker would like to see uptake of his approach
... but publishers have their own delivery methods
... can they implement something similar?
volker: naturally, I would like
to see more uptake
... we'll test soon with ?libretext?
... the technology is based on standard formats
... chem representation formats that most drawing programs
output. Like Mole or ChemML
... they are normally there
... we have examples from teachers and publishers in the
Netherlands
... they sent us word files, but it turns out the Mole file was
embedded
... we need to educate the authors/publishers
George: this is based on open royalty free standards?
volker: I think they're all
open
... Mole might have been patented?
George: your work is freely available?
volker: well... :)
... we're trying to build a company around this
Judy: you're posting this in a public space
volker: I'm aware of that
... the transformation software is proprietary
... but it could go the way of MathJax, make it public if it
was sponsored
Avneesh: qestion about JS
... if you have only SVG, aria, html, what do we lose?
... EPUB 3 is a requirement
... and JS is poorly supported in EPUB
... how would this work without JS
volker: you have restricted
navigation
... JS handles heirarchical navigation
... so you are restricted to the SVG tree
... you can embed a lot of info, but you'd have to tap through
it
... it would be hard to do some of the zooming,
highlighting.
... some could be done with CSS?
... navigation would suffer
George: I saw amy putting her
hand up
... I have a question for her
... I know when you're testing epubs through web interfaces, JS
is enabled in website implementation
... so you could carry JS in EPUB, but would only be used on
web-based situations
Amy: I can't say you have it
right for everything
... offline versions of vitalsource use a web rendering engine,
so JS does work
George: it's not only the web view but in the native apps
Amy: yes, in iOS and Android
too.
... but that's not the same for all readers
... I've mostly worked with VitalSource
... Has there been a discussion about Savvy? Not sure if it's
been covered, or if Jessicanwanted to mention it
George: one question for the publishers
<Rachel> s/savvy/SAVI
George: how much do you have CML
Or Mole files? Is there a starting place that you have in your
workflows now?
... I want to be practical
... we could build a library of these things that are
hand-tooled
... but I'm wondering abou the feasiblity of publications using
these techniques
Jessica_: Macmillan uses images like PNG plus alt text
tzviya: wiley also, and in the
source files if it's more marked up than that it's not
CML
... I'd have to check with my colleagues
???: Norton is the same, we use images with alt text
???: as does Houghton
George: in our math book, we have
images of math with alt text and then images of math with
MathML and JS
... and the JS runs to expose the MathML to screen
readers
... volker's preso at AHG
... where things were visually correct, spoken, and
highlighted--this was the first time I saw math ticking the
boxes for all a11y groups. It was impressive.
... I have to turn the leadership of this meeting over to
somebody
... who would be able to take over the meeting?
tzviya: I can chair, but this isn't my area of experties
George: when I read the aspirin, that was my first time reading chemistry with a screen reader
<scribe> Chair: Tzviya
tzviya: any other comments on volker's sample
jasonjgw: I noted that in the
invite to this meeting
... many people on mailing lists were included
... would there be a discussion list for this topic?
... it would be good to have the communication clarified
... there's also a w3c community group on the architecture of
math, chem, and domain-specific knowledge
... which have particular notational requirements
... and that will address future web standards
... about how to represent these knowledge domains
... and how to make them accessible
... and the relation to existing discussions of Math
accessiblity
tzviya: I'm trying to find the
name of the community group
... we could do this in the knowledge domain CG or in EPUB 3
CG
<CharlesL> W3C MathML 4 Community Group https://www.w3.org/community/?s=MathML4
tzviya: our objective is closer to publishing
<jasonjgw> https://www.w3.org/community/knowledge-domain/
tzviya: so is closer to EPUB3
CG
... but the knowledge domain is long-term work
... we are targeting six months to one year
Judy: it's possible to have
multiple lists for a CG
... the way to automatically get a new email would be to start
a new CG
... for math that exists
... for chemistry it doesn't
... a CG might be the appropriate structure for this
... you get lots of benefits
<Zakim> janina, you wanted to say about knowledge domain scope
janina: a cg for chemistry makes
a ton of sense
... the relationship between this and the knowledge
domain
... Knowledge domain will never care about the details of math
or chem or music
... it wants to know how we identify a block of this specific
info
... KD is the epistological questions, not the ontological
questions
... content will likely to have knowledge from multiple
domains
Avneesh: we have an option of
having a CG
... or a different mailing list in existing CG
tzviya: we could ask that question
George: I don't know what the
best approach is
... a task force in EPUB3 or a new CG
... the scope is to find best practices for publishers
tzviya: we don't need to spend
more time on this
... it's important that people join whatever group, to make
sure we have an IP understanding etc
zorkow: Let's not forget there's
no separation in subject areas
... there's a lot of overlap in technology
... we should avoid walled gardens
Judy: that's the purpose of the
umbrella CG
... the intent there is to ensure that we're building a common
mechanism for all these domains
... but we want a conversation that's open and welcoming across
many dimensions
... but we do have a need for specialized discussion in each
area
<CharlesL> Here is the link to that new Knowledge Domain CG https://www.w3.org/community/knowledge-domain/2019/02/13/call-for-participation-in-knowledge-domain-community-group/
Judy: we want to host a
cross-domain discussion
... we wanted to make sure to remind people to join the KD
CG
tzviya: we've talked about
volker's initial proposal
... option two listed in the email, some people thing SVG with
nav and text label would work
Avneesh: this is something that
volker has done when we remove JS
... SVG with aria labels, if it works without JS it would be
great for EPUB3
volker: we have a version of SVG
we use for tactile diagrams with additonal groups
... the only problem is the nav is a bit arbitrary. You can
only tap through things
... there are aria tree navigators which might help
tzviya: option 3 is mathml representing chem
jasonjgw: that's solving a
different set of issues
... not so much options as solving a different problem
tzviya: any comments on MathML 4?
zorkow: I've sent an email to
george
... that I was wondering how to structure these
discussion
... molecule formulas, structural formulas, [other
things]
... we have a solution in mathjax that starts with LaTex
... we could break up into task forces for the different
problems
tzviya: I'll leave that for George
George: my concern is students
that are ten or fifteen years old
... not in college yet, and needing to use math and chem and
physics
... the complexity of interfaces for reading is a concern
... having a consistent interface for all the different
material, and being able to navigate through it
... if we have seven domains of symbology, and each has a
different access mode, that would be tough
... which is a plus one for SVG because you're learning a
single interface for a whole range of things
Judy: I'm hoping that's our
shared goal
... I'm hoping the difference between the content types would
become transparent
zorkow: some of these formulas
should embed in text
... others are set off
... a molecule formula or reaction formula, it's usually in a
text flow, should be interface-free
janina: a common interface makes
a ton of sense, especially for younger learners
... the vocabulary is different
... SVG might make sense, but we need chemistry vocabulary,
which is different from geometry vocabulary
Avneesh: what should be the next
steps
... JS is a question mark
... SVG is more robust
... is all this feasible for the publishers given their current
workflows
... on the next call should we focus on SVG and publisher
workflows?
tzviya: as a publisher, it might
be good to get a better idea of what the current workflows
are
... I can talk to my colleagues
Avneesh: great
... two things
... 1. volker can help with SVG without JS can become more
navigable
... 2. publishers can explore how their workflows could handle
this
volker: i can send more links
tzviya: the date for next month
falls during CSUN
... maybe 20 March is a possibility
... doesn't work for me, but might work for others
... some folks will be at ebookcraft/techforum
... should we do a doodle poll?
Avneesh: yes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/???/Aspirin/ FAILED: s/savvy/SAVI/ Succeeded: s/???: Macmillan uses images like PNG plus alt text/Jessica_: Macmillan uses images like PNG plus alt text/ Succeeded: s/???/Judy/ Present: George dauwhe Avneesh CharlesL Bill_Kasdorf Judy_Brewer janina Found ScribeNick: dauwhe Inferring Scribes: dauwhe WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. WARNING: Could not parse date. Unknown month name "02": 2019-02-20 Format should be like "Date: 31 Jan 2004" WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]