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20:41:57 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT Working Session teleconference 13 February 2019 21:00 UTC
20:42:12 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2019.02.13
20:42:28 <DaveBrowning> regrets: Andrea Perego
20:43:09 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
20:43:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:44:58 <DaveBrowning> present+
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20:57:59 <Makx> present+ Makx
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21:00:06 <PWinstanley> present+
21:00:50 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
21:00:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
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21:03:39 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present+
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21:04:40 <alejandra> present+
21:06:42 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
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21:08:46 <DaveBrowning> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fApxJIotapugde-hyS2lmsElNO3mLvoi7nLqDYJQZ7g/edit?usp=sharing
21:08:47 <SimonCox> present+
21:09:01 <SimonCox> regrets, AndreaPerego
21:10:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
21:10:35 <PWinstanley> present+
21:10:41 <PWinstanley> scribenick PWinstanley
21:10:56 <DaveBrowning> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Adcat+label%3Aversioning
21:11:04 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: there are useful resources in the links - esp the list of relevant github issues
21:11:15 <PWinstanley> ... these have been tagged with 'versioning'
21:11:19 <DaveBrowning> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/9
21:11:30 <PWinstanley> ... the same things are grouped into github project categories
21:12:05 <PWinstanley> ...Work done towards the beginning of the WG - alejandra  did a review of versioning
21:12:12 <PWinstanley> ... there are other notes
21:12:23 <PWinstanley> ... and notes on using pav
21:12:31 <DaveBrowning> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dxwg-wg/2019Feb/0208.html
21:12:37 <PWinstanley> ... Makx  sent a suggestion to the mailing list
21:13:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to Makx's suggestion
21:13:29 <PWinstanley> ... we need to take the position that it is not for DCAT to determine the point of change from one version to another for a dataset - this is established within the domain
21:13:58 <PWinstanley> ... but we need to provide a mechanism.  We need to formalise any consensus view on this requirement first
21:13:59 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:14:25 <SimonCox> +1
21:14:34 <PWinstanley> proposed: we are not going to talk about why, when or where, but are talking about how
21:14:43 <PWinstanley> +1
21:14:48 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:14:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:14:52 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:14:56 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:14:56 <PWinstanley> resolved: we are not going to talk about why, when or where, but are talking about how
21:15:13 <alejandra> +1
21:15:56 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: the follow on: do we want to make an explicit statement about this?
21:16:44 <PWinstanley> +1 to explicit - very explicit
21:16:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to make it explicit in the document
21:17:00 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:17:05 <alejandra> +1 to explicit
21:17:13 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:17:44 <Makx> +1
21:18:06 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: So the question now is:  how much effort does this task require
21:18:20 <PWinstanley> q+
21:18:27 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
21:18:36 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
21:18:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:18:52 <DaveBrowning> PWinstanley: Don't gold plate, go for coverage not depth
21:19:01 <DaveBrowning> ... simple illustrative case
21:19:27 <DaveBrowning> ... that shows something can be done,    something that shows it can scale...
21:19:38 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:19:40 <DaveBrowning> ...  maybe do a more complex case...?
21:19:45 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to simple and illustrative ..
21:19:46 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:20:30 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: I am having difficulties understanding if we have a vision of versions,.  Do we consider alternative distributions of different languages 'versions' or 'distributions'?
21:20:43 <PWinstanley> ... what are our version properties?
21:20:44 <Makx> q+
21:21:36 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: last week we agreed to be loose in interpretation or definition of distributions.  we are minimising the complexity of 'informational equivalence' leaving this to the the publisher
21:21:42 <alejandra> you can catch up on the update of the distribution definition at: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#Class:Distribution
21:22:32 <alejandra> +q
21:22:41 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
21:23:29 <PWinstanley> Makx: reacting to the point of languages, this is a comon case, but I suggest the set of 6 scenarios, and I think these are for publisers to define what constitutes a version change
21:23:50 <PWinstanley> ... we can say what the properties might be to support their choices
21:24:16 <PWinstanley> ... but we need to leave it open to them to make the design decisions depending on their requirements
21:24:32 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:24:36 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
21:25:04 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/
21:26:02 <SimonCox> https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/#datasetdescriptionlevels
21:26:27 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I agree with Makx  - but I thought the work we did with the HCLS profile for data sets might be instructive - see s.5 and the diagram that separates the data set description from the distribution  and the version level description that alows one to describe the relations between data versions
21:26:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:27:13 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
21:27:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
21:28:23 <PWinstanley> alejandra: in the table, for each descrription level we specify the requirement of properties for each level
21:29:13 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: this still leaves it quite abstract in terms of scenarios
21:29:41 <PWinstanley> alejandra: the specific stuff for versioning is within the table 'provenance and change'
21:29:58 <PWinstanley> alejandra: using dct and pav attributes
21:30:11 <Makx> q+
21:30:20 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
21:30:30 <DaveBrowning> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:30:35 <Makx> q++
21:30:45 <Makx> q+
21:31:12 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I like the approach of pav - a potential solution.  the other approach is using qualified relations.
21:32:17 <PWinstanley> ... I mention qualified relations because versioning is a relationship between datasets, and in DCAT we are already considering qualified relations.  Covering versioning the same way is another possibility.
21:32:21 <PWinstanley> q+
21:32:27 <DaveBrowning> ack +
21:32:30 <DaveBrowning> acl Makx
21:32:34 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
21:33:50 <SimonCox> Qualified Relations are the answer to everything ... but must be accompanied by a controlled vocabulary of 'roles' that relate one dataset to another
21:34:10 <PWinstanley> Makx: alejandra  mentioned the HLCS - is the approach there to be the one we direct people to, or do we bring an extra class into DCAT?
21:35:25 <PWinstanley> alejandra: HLCS is in use, but in niche life sciences areas.  Combined with riccardoAlbertoni comment, qualified relations are referenced
21:35:30 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:36:21 <PWinstanley> ... I think it is better for DCAT to have its own version of this because we are covering a wider user.  I'm not suggesting a specific solution ... yet. But my mention of this is to add it to the discussion of options.
21:36:31 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:36:36 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
21:37:11 <alejandra> We do already have 'is version of' as an example in the Qualified Relationships section: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#qualified-forms
21:37:51 <DaveBrowning> PWinstanley: Might want a more low tech option, as well as the more sophisticated
21:37:55 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:37:58 <DaveBrowning> acl Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:38:05 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:38:55 <DaveBrowning> chair: DaveBrowning
21:38:59 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: it might not be possible to combine both approaches - the DCAT document itself might not be the place to describe these information.  If I'm wanting just summary material what am I expecting to see
21:39:29 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, create minutes v2
21:39:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:39:34 <PWinstanley> ... we could try to draw out what this constellation might actually look like
21:39:54 <PWinstanley> ... AFAIK the distributions in HCLS are not versioned, only the dataset.
21:40:22 <PWinstanley> alejandra: the dataset is abstract, the distributions are concrete and can come in different languages/formats/profiles
21:40:51 <PWinstanley> ... the versions are of datasets only.  For representation one doesn't need a separate class
21:41:36 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: can we consider versioning in terms of effort - it is a lot of effort to describe a dataset.  we can approach this on different levels of resolution
21:42:02 <PWinstanley> ... perhaps we should take effort into account
21:42:05 <DaveBrowning> q?
21:43:12 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: Summary:  lots of suggestions, but with the exception of riccardoAlbertoni  and the qualified relations, we are circling around the problem
21:43:23 <PWinstanley> ... I am still looking for a strong suggestion
21:43:26 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
21:43:33 <DaveBrowning> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:43:50 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the example proposed in the google doc is a straw man
21:44:33 <PWinstanley> ... perhaps we should try to keep it simple, suggesting pav as the first attempt.  One issue I see is that we had another vocab which is not a W3C standard
21:45:05 <PWinstanley> ... but this could be unproblematic.  I also acknowledge that the reference to PAV is easier to realise in the short time we have
21:46:01 <PWinstanley> ... The qualified relations could be part of an incremental approach for which plain PAV is the start.  PAV itself uses qualified relations for complex patterns
21:46:45 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: one advantage of that approach is that we start drafting and become more elaborate as we move forward
21:46:52 <PWinstanley> +1 to drafting
21:47:05 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:47:09 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: what examples might we want to use?
21:47:16 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:47:45 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Makx already mentioned 2 scenarios where the data sets are versions of the 'summary level'
21:47:46 <Makx> q+
21:48:00 <PWinstanley> ... but we can have versions at distribution level too as an example
21:48:03 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
21:48:45 <PWinstanley> Makx: in my message last week there were plenty of illustrations that we can use to test the current DCAT and evluate to see if anything is missing
21:49:01 <PWinstanley> s/evluate /evaluate /
21:49:21 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: are you expecting qualified relations modelling?
21:49:55 <PWinstanley> Makx: these are 'real world' examples from DCAT-AP work.  The language one can be done with different distributions under the same dataset.
21:50:02 <SimonCox> It would be easy to add more examples like https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#qualified-relationship and make it explicit that the related resources are of type=dcat:Dataset
21:50:30 <PWinstanley> ... but there area annual budgets for different periods, - there are many options, but we need to be able to point which one follows which
21:50:42 <PWinstanley> ... going through these examples will be instructive
21:51:01 <PWinstanley> ... we either model different dataset versions, or different versions of distributions
21:51:15 <SimonCox> +1 to Makx - provide an inventory of use-cases based on our known cases, from DCAT-AP etc, with recommended patterns, showing both Distributions and Datasets
21:51:53 <PWinstanley> ... we need to discover in real stuff what works and what doesn't.  At the moment we are not discussing concrete things, just general stuff
21:52:38 <alejandra> +q
21:53:09 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: in the contributions I've made I find real examples most helpful - I used the CSIRO data repo
21:53:25 <PWinstanley> ... in most cases it has uncovered niggles
21:53:37 <PWinstanley> ... let's descend to concrete examples
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21:54:15 <DaveBrowning_> present+
21:54:31 <PWinstanley> ... I also drop examples into the 'examples' folder of github, we can place them there
21:54:39 <DaveBrowning_> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
21:54:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning_
21:54:48 <PWinstanley> ack alejandra
21:54:58 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/tree/gh-pages/dcat/examples
21:55:02 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/TR/hcls-dataset/#appendix_1
21:56:05 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I agree about the examples  The HCLS example from the chemical compounds database doesn't fit DCAT.
21:56:54 <PWinstanley> ... in addition to examples and UC as proposed by Makx , perhaps we should also consider what queries we would like the metadata to answer
21:57:20 <PWinstanley> ... we can only attach qualified relations or PAV properties to dataset level
21:57:23 <SimonCox> (more examples coming when https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/730 is merged :-) )
21:57:47 <PWinstanley> ... we need to determine which domains require these properties
21:57:53 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:58:06 <Makx> q+
21:58:17 <DaveBrowning_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:59:05 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: I think this will remain inconsistent because of the choices of the publishers.  I think both (dataset/distribution) levels might be applicable
21:59:19 <DaveBrowning_> ack Makx
21:59:45 <DaveBrowning_> nick: DaveBrowning
22:00:46 <PWinstanley> Makx: I don't see that we are concerned with inconsistency.  we can create new datasets, or new distributions under the same dataset.  Wejust need to say which properties need to be used for each case.  We don't need a singular view of everything, but we need to say that if you want to do A then do this, and B then do that
22:01:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+ to say alejandra was referring to the issue : Version subject https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/93
22:01:20 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: if we have a set of properties that migt be used on either dataset or distribution level then the querying might yield confusing results
22:01:33 <DaveBrowning_> q?
22:01:36 <PWinstanley> Makx: people are doing these things, so we have to roll with it.
22:02:05 <PWinstanley> ... but we can suggest routes
22:02:32 <DaveBrowning_> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:02:32 <Zakim> riccardoAlbertoni, you wanted to say alejandra was referring to the issue : Version subject https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/93
22:02:39 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: this might suggest different sets of properties for datasets and distributions, and this choice might then be informative
22:03:16 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the discussion suggests to me that we are discussing issue #93
22:03:39 <PWinstanley> ... saying that it is up to the user to determine the subject of the versioning
22:03:59 <alejandra> +q
22:04:00 <DaveBrowning_> q?
22:04:02 <PWinstanley> ... it might be any first-class object from the DCAT vocab
22:04:18 <DaveBrowning_> q?
22:04:21 <DaveBrowning_> ack alejandra
22:04:51 <PWinstanley> alejandra: if we support this then we are leaning towards a solution that will combine properties and qualified relationships
22:05:18 <PWinstanley> ... This needs to be illustrated with our examples
22:05:24 <DaveBrowning_> q?
22:05:41 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:05:50 <DaveBrowning_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:06:40 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: searching - creating models leads to diversity, but queries will need to be able to establish the type of versioning pattern
22:07:06 <alejandra> considering the time series data, which is one of the use cases that Makx listed, DCAT-AP represents it using hasPart and no reference to versions: https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/release/dcat-ap-how-model-dataset-series
22:07:09 <PWinstanley> ... this is up to the exploration of the patterns applied to the metadata
22:07:25 <alejandra> +q
22:07:34 <DaveBrowning_> ack alejandra
22:07:40 <SimonCox> THe PROV-O property is called `prov:qualifiedDerivation` - https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#qualifiedDerivation - (g) here https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#qualifiedDerivation
22:07:59 <SimonCox> I meant here https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#qualified-terms-figure
22:08:12 <PWinstanley> alejandra: Makx  - re: the link of how DCAT-AP does this with annual budget data.  AFAIK there is no reference to version, but to dataset parts
22:08:38 <PWinstanley> ... please can you (Makx) point to how DCAT-AP handles versions
22:08:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> SimonCox: https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#qualifiedRevision
22:08:51 <alejandra> "Additionally, DCAT-AP allows relating datasets as ‘versions’ using dct:hasVersion/dct:isVersionOf but it is not clearly described in which cases to use these properties."
22:08:53 <PWinstanley> Makx: we looked and couldn't find an agreed approach.
22:09:29 <PWinstanley> ... CKAN thought it was ridiculous to have different distributions.  It is only visible on the screen, there is no metadata.
22:09:37 <SimonCox> The `dcat:qualifiedRelation` has domain `dcat:Resource` and range `dcat:Relation` which carries the property `dct:relation` which can point to anything
22:09:48 <PWinstanley> ... my point was that W3C was going to resolve it (Us?!!)
22:10:23 <Makx> yes, that would be us!
22:10:36 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning_: can we summarise the conversation about qualified relations?
22:11:21 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: there are diverse properties that relate to this area between DCAT and PROV, but I am uncertain that it is totally appropriate to our needs
22:11:21 <Makx> q+
22:11:28 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:11:36 <DaveBrowning_> ack Makx
22:12:56 <SimonCox> Makx - are you proposing a 'versionNumber' or 'versionDesignator' property?
22:13:13 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
22:13:16 <PWinstanley> Makx: we need to have the qualified relation to express the exact version.  we also need to be cautious about how deep we go into this.  in the library world there is this issue of complexity in book revisions.  sometimes it is not just version 1,2,3, etc, but sometimes there are additional free notes.  we need to ensure that any solution we achieve is reasonable and fits peoples' needs
22:13:33 <DaveBrowning_> q?
22:13:42 <PWinstanley> ... some basic approach migth be a good way forward, then to increase the complexity and see how it fares
22:13:42 <DaveBrowning_> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:13:53 <SimonCox> q+ to ask if Makx is proposing a 'versionNumber' or 'versionDesignator' property?
22:14:11 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: we have discussions on 2 levels  of solution level
22:14:42 <PWinstanley> ... on the lower slopes then simple properties are enough, but for more complex situations qualified relations
22:14:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
22:14:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
22:15:01 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
22:15:20 <PWinstanley> ... but we need to agree to what entities we would apply a version .  we need to provide hints or definite advice.
22:15:35 <PWinstanley> ... if we cannot easily provide these then this is the problem to solve.
22:15:39 <alejandra> +q
22:15:42 <Makx> q+
22:16:14 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
22:16:35 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: asking Makx  - it sounds like you're identifying a gap and perhaps with enough examples using the properties we have available is another property giving a version something that would meet your requirements
22:17:40 <PWinstanley> Makx: in DCAT-ap there is a version indicator and a version note - these are the simple requirements met, but eqyally not the only way to do this.  I was wanting to discover how much precision we need to bring into this, because we were working for a long time and agreement was hard to reach
22:18:03 <PWinstanley> ... so perhaps we should not do that effort
22:18:34 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: anytime there is a property and some explanation, it is another class - a more complicated pattern
22:19:02 <alejandra> q?
22:19:03 <SimonCox> more than one property grouped together == a class
22:19:15 <alejandra> ack SimonCox
22:19:15 <Zakim> SimonCox, you wanted to ask if Makx is proposing a 'versionNumber' or 'versionDesignator' property?
22:20:57 <PWinstanley> alejandra: In the google doc is a diagram - if we have 2 versions of a dataset  we want to descrie their relations.  but these might have different distributions.  we need to be able to relate the datasets / or the distributions. so as to decide which is the next version
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22:21:21 <alejandra> q?
22:21:23 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
22:21:24 <alejandra> ack alejandra
22:21:28 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:21:31 <PWinstanley> ... we want to give people freedom, but we need to give them the properties to express these relationships
22:21:38 <PWinstanley> q+
22:21:44 <alejandra> ack Makx
22:22:27 <alejandra> the google doc link is: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fApxJIotapugde-hyS2lmsElNO3mLvoi7nLqDYJQZ7g/edit
22:22:43 <PWinstanley> Makx: I cannot see the diagram, but rather than saying to people how to do things, the DCMI Terms versionOf does the job.
22:23:25 <PWinstanley> ... we cannot expect people to do what 'we' think
22:23:29 <alejandra> q?
22:24:09 <PWinstanley> alejandra: yes, but we need to provide guidance
22:24:25 <PWinstanley> ... we need a position on the best , cleanest way of doing this
22:24:55 <PWinstanley> Makx: I agree, - the examples I have are ones that we might want to say something about
22:25:07 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:25:32 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I agree with the idea of allowing the user to do what they want.
22:26:00 <alejandra> and let's not forget dcat:Resource and services!
22:26:20 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:26:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
22:27:08 <PWinstanley> ... the user should decide when to apply versioning.  On the issue of simplicity I take a diifferent line to Makx - the idea of adding the same qualified pattern will add one pav term to model any possibility.  it is just a matter of judicious choice of the term
22:27:09 <PWinstanley> q-
22:27:15 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:27:18 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:28:25 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: my summary - support for  simplicity; for the drawing which shows the degree of freedom people have;
22:28:46 <PWinstanley> ... the modelling pattern is the individual decision of the publisher
22:28:48 <PWinstanley> q+
22:29:23 <DaveBrowning> ack PWinstanley
22:31:36 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:31:54 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:32:14 <Makx> q+
22:32:18 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:32:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> s/the idea of adding the same qualified pattern will add one pav term to model any possibility/same qualified pattern will avoid using one different pav terms every possibilities
22:33:40 <alejandra> even if we allow freedom, we should guide through a few patterns
22:34:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:34:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
22:34:08 <DaveBrowning> q+
22:34:15 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: we can describe options , as alejandra  did, which do not break the structures
22:34:48 <SimonCox> I just took a look at schema.org - it has fairly weak support for versioning, only a version designator https://schema.org/version, which is not tied into a link to another thing, and https://meta.schema.org/supersededBy which is only one possible versioning relationship
22:34:53 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:34:58 <SimonCox> ... and is not in the core
22:35:21 <SimonCox> ... and is only related to model constructs not datasets
22:35:41 <alejandra> +q
22:36:16 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
22:36:21 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: bringing us back to the recommendation, do we expect to talk much in the rec - or is it there to provide some illustrations of versioning and we accept that publishers will develop their own styles?
22:36:24 <DaveBrowning> ack alejandra
22:37:22 <DaveBrowning> q+
22:37:25 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we could discuss and illustrate riccardoAlbertoni  point - there are vocabularies, so let's decide which might be used for our examples
22:38:07 <DaveBrowning> ack DaveBrowning
22:38:11 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: tbh, pav not being a W3C standard is an advantage - there is more than one provider, and this shows strength in the approach
22:38:20 <Makx> q+
22:38:27 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:38:58 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
22:39:10 <DaveBrowning> ack riccardoAlbertoni
22:39:14 <PWinstanley> Makx: wen doing DCAT v1 there was pushback from W3C for using DCT, but PAV is referred to in DWBP so there is no problem referencing it
22:39:47 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: I don't know if using PAV is a problem, but in DWBP PAV is provided as an example only, not a recommendation
22:39:52 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:40:05 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:40:11 <DaveBrowning> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:40:45 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann:   do we have a gap?  is there a real issue of missing vocab?
22:40:53 <Makx> q+
22:40:58 <DaveBrowning> ack Makx
22:41:19 <PWinstanley> Makx: good point Jaroslav_Pullmann .  I suggest we go through examples and that will illustrate any gaps.
22:41:42 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to Makx and Jaroslav_Pullmann about examples
22:42:02 <DaveBrowning> q?
22:42:52 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: families of examples:  are the ones from Makx  good?  Nobody suggests otherwise... are there any others?
22:43:13 <Makx> q+
22:43:31 <PWinstanley> ack Makx
22:44:05 <PWinstanley> Makx: there is serial versioning and parallel versioning.
22:44:15 <SimonCox> I like Makx categories
22:44:32 <PWinstanley> q+
22:45:00 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:45:00 <PWinstanley> ... I don't know if it is an issue that we take into account
22:45:17 <PWinstanley> ack PWinstanley
22:47:11 <PWinstanley> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:47:59 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: I support this vision - it is to do with obsolation.  One obsoletes the other.  I want to know what is current
22:48:24 <Makx> q+
22:48:29 <PWinstanley> ack Makx
22:48:36 <SimonCox> supersedes?
22:49:21 <PWinstanley> Makx: Jaroslav_Pullmann brings up a number of points - there is sequencing where members are equally valid.  each requires a different set of functions.
22:49:29 <SimonCox> we see many 'versions' in simulation and forecasting datasets, all of which are 'valid' for different functions
22:49:35 <PWinstanley> ... There can be replacement.
22:50:11 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann:  we are reaching the crucial point of the version - to let the client indicate the current shape of the dataset
22:50:32 <PWinstanley> ... we should support this axis of interest using the most appropriate means
22:50:52 <PWinstanley> ... these may inform the gap analysis.
22:51:33 <PWinstanley> q?
22:52:55 <alejandra> s/obsolation/obsolescence
22:53:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:53:57 <PWinstanley> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:54:30 <SimonCox> 'supersedes' is more common term than 'obsoletes'
22:54:48 <SimonCox> (unless there is a nuance I'm missing)
22:54:48 <PWinstanley> Jaroslav_Pullmann: the different patterns could be described, and we could give a minimal requirement of how each pattern might be expressed
22:55:11 <PWinstanley> q?
22:56:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 to sprint if we have examples in the meanwhile
22:56:14 <PWinstanley> q: are people still getting value from the sprint approach?
22:56:22 <SimonCox> I got less value from this sprint, because no concrete proposal on the table
22:56:40 <DaveBrowning> +1 to SimonCox view
22:56:40 <SimonCox> ... need some wording, a document section ...
22:56:45 <Makx> q+
22:56:49 <PWinstanley> ack Makx
22:57:14 <SimonCox> Can Jaroslav_Pullmann draft a starting point?
22:57:39 <alejandra> +q
22:57:53 <PWinstanley> Makx: I think Jaroslav_Pullmann  did a concrete proposal.  Whatever you do , provide version information, version indicator, version notes.  if you think it is the dataset that has changed, then apply to dataset.  if distribution, then apply to the distributions.
22:58:13 <alejandra> for the basic structure, we might as well refer to https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataVersioning
22:58:27 <PWinstanley> ... going further than that  (e.g. annual budget data) then provide examples of handling these more complex cases.
22:58:45 <PWinstanley> .... I think that what Jaroslav_Pullmann  proposed takes us the first step of the way.
22:59:11 <PWinstanley> ... but we need some concrete proposals, and if we have those then we will clean up the work quickly
22:59:42 <PWinstanley> ... We don't need the sprint to create the proposal though
22:59:45 <PWinstanley> q?
23:00:09 <PWinstanley> alejandra:  what Jaroslav_Pullmann  proposed is similar to DWBP
23:00:36 <PWinstanley> 1= sprint; 2= meeting as normal
23:00:44 <alejandra> we need a concrete proposal about this
23:00:55 <Makx> 1
23:01:10 <Makx> no sorry 2
23:01:24 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1 for meeting (2), since too late
23:01:39 <PWinstanley> 1= sprint around a concrete proposal;     2= meeting as normal
23:01:51 <SimonCox> 2
23:01:55 <alejandra> 2
23:01:58 <Makx> 2
23:01:59 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> 2
23:02:01 <SimonCox> ... until there is a concrete proposal on versioning ready
23:02:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1 (if we have proposals to discuss) - +2 otherwise
23:02:30 <SimonCox> rrsagent, draft minutes v2
23:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html SimonCox
23:02:45 <riccardoAlbertoni> yes
23:03:11 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye thanks for the interesting discussion
23:03:16 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
23:03:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
23:03:24 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> thank you!
23:03:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> RSAgent, draft minutes v2
23:04:26 <alejandra> we have a section here: https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/dcat/#dataset-versions
23:05:03 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
23:05:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
23:05:04 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> thanks!
23:05:10 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present
23:05:12 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
23:05:42 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
23:05:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley
23:06:12 <PWinstanley> bye!
23:06:12 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
23:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/02/13-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley