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16:01:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
16:01:09 <trackbot> Date: 24 January 2019
16:01:16 <nigel> Log: https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-irc
16:05:07 <nigel> Present+ Andreas, Gary, Nigel
16:05:11 <nigel> Regrets: Glenn
16:05:19 <nigel> scribe: nigel
16:05:23 <nigel> Chair: Nigel
16:05:38 <nigel> Present+ Thierry
16:05:56 <nigel> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/13
16:06:10 <nigel> Regrets+ Mike
16:06:23 <nigel> Topic: This meeting
16:06:52 <nigel> Nigel: Today we have one issue marked for agenda for TTML Profile Registry.
16:07:09 <nigel> .. TTWG Future Reqs if there's anything to cover,
16:07:20 <nigel> .. F2F meetings next week
16:07:28 <nigel> .. TTML in RTP IETF submission
16:07:37 <nigel> .. Is there any other business, or any specific points to raise?
16:07:53 <nigel> .. I didn't have reason to add WebVTT to the agenda before, but there's been some discussion on
16:08:08 <nigel> .. the reflector today, so we can add it if that would help?
16:08:29 <nigel> Gary: Yes, we can cover WebVTT please.
16:08:31 <nigel> Nigel: OK
16:08:55 <nigel> group: [nothing more for the agenda]
16:09:23 <nigel> Topic: TTML Profile Registry w3c/tt-profile-registry#58 Fix spec reference for etx2 to point to EBU-TT 1.1
16:09:35 <nigel> github: https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pull/58
16:09:43 <cyril> cyril has joined #tt
16:09:49 <nigel> Present+ Cyril
16:09:51 <cyril> scribe: cyril
16:10:07 <cyril> nigel: PR to fix etx2
16:10:21 <cyril> ... I raised it, andreas reviewed it, open for 13days
16:10:37 <cyril> ... it's ready for the editors to merge
16:11:27 <nigel> SUMMARY: Editors to merge tomorrow at the earliest assuming no new objections
16:11:44 <nigel> github-bot, end topic
16:11:50 <cyril> topic: TTWG Future requirements
16:12:08 <cyril> nigel: Is there anything specific to discuss?
16:12:25 <cyril> ... there has been some discussion on embedded images
16:12:36 <cyril> ... it's fine offline
16:12:57 <cyril> ... no comment on that point
16:13:05 <cyril> topic: Joint f2f meeting with EBU Timed Text, Feb 1 2019
16:13:50 <cyril> nigel: I have updated the agenda
16:14:34 <cyril> ... we need some time on WebVTT
16:14:47 <cyril> ... I am not sure what the best time would be
16:14:57 <cyril> gkatsev: day 1 would be good
16:15:46 <cyril> cyril: If the discussions on the requirements I raised could be discussed at a convenient time for me
16:16:53 <cyril> ... like 4pm geneva time
16:18:29 <cyril> nigel: day 1 is mainly those requirements, TTML2, modularization ...
16:18:43 <cyril> ... live demo as part of the PTS event
16:18:57 <cyril> ... and the WebVTT implementation report
16:19:59 <cyril> ... day 2 in the morning is the joint meeting about live ttml
16:20:11 <cyril> ... and how we handle EBU defining semantics
16:20:31 <cyril> ... like multiRowAlign but other contributions
16:20:38 <cyril> ... we need to think about what the options are
16:20:49 <cyril> ... if you have any other topic let me know
16:21:06 <nigel> q?
16:21:46 <cyril> topic: TTML in RTP IETF submission
16:22:05 <cyril> nigel: we had a bit of feedback from Mike
16:22:20 <cyril> ... my colleague James just updated a new draft
16:22:30 <nigel> -> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sandford-payload-rtp-ttml/ RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text
16:22:54 <cyril> ... one of the thing that generated discussion is the media type definition
16:23:27 <cyril> ... there seems to be a best practice IETF document saying that you should register the media type for the payload format
16:23:41 <cyril> ... that explains why the draft copies it
16:23:57 <cyril> ... that's a bit bizarre
16:24:12 <cyril> ... but it seems a recommended practice
16:24:23 <cyril> ... the change control now says W3C has change control over this specification
16:25:20 <nigel> s/register the media type/include the media type registration
16:25:34 <nigel> s/bizarre/bizarre (to me, personally)
16:25:57 <cyril> ... there has been a review/comments from IETF groups as well
16:26:04 <cyril> ... it's a good sign, has momentum
16:26:30 <cyril> topic: WebVTT status
16:26:46 <cyril> nigel: gary and thierry have been discussing this
16:27:44 <cyril> gkatsev: the status is that unless there is progress on the spec, it will be removed from the charter and not added back soon
16:27:55 <cyril> ... my question is what would constitute progress
16:28:44 <cyril> tmichel: the question is not really about the progress on the spec, because it's at CR and stable
16:28:53 <cyril> ... the issue is really about the implementation report
16:29:00 <cyril> ... I've looked at wpt.fyi
16:29:15 <cyril> ... I agree that for APIs, most of the tests pass 80%
16:29:40 <cyril> ... but the rendering is at about 1% or 2% close to zero
16:29:45 <cyril> ... it needs to be run manually
16:29:53 <cyril> ... I discussed with Philippe
16:30:01 <cyril> ... we need a proper implementation report
16:30:11 <cyril> showing things are implemented twice
16:30:37 <cyril> ... if we don't progress to PR, it's unlikely that it will stay in the charter
16:30:55 <cyril> ... if the implementation report progresses, the transition to PR should be ok
16:31:26 <cyril> gkatsev: I'm actually working on going through the rendering tests across browsers
16:31:34 <cyril> tmichel: I've done a bit too
16:31:48 <cyril> ... my conclusion is that Chrome it was good, Edge was bad and FF was so and so
16:31:56 <cyril> ... I didn't test Safari
16:32:05 <cyril> gkatsev: Safari is pretty good as well
16:32:13 <cyril> tmichel: we need to know where we are
16:32:34 <cyril> gkatsev: that is what I'm working on and will have results next week
16:33:02 <cyril> tmichel: you have to know the past and that the efforts have been slowing down, so thank you for joining the group and putting efforts
16:33:08 <cyril> gkatsev: I totally understand
16:33:19 <cyril> ... I would like to see it through if we can
16:33:29 <nigel> q+
16:33:39 <cyril> ack nigel
16:33:58 <cyril> nigel: one question I have is: how would you establish what counts as a feature?
16:34:20 <cyril> ... as far as I know, WebVTT does not have a list of features in the spec
16:34:35 <cyril> ... TTML has it but a lot of other specs don't
16:34:41 <cyril> ... what's your approach Gary?
16:34:57 <cyril> gkatsev: the way they set it up in WPT is that each test is a feature
16:35:10 <cyril> ... the rendering tests have standard cues, or 2 cues overlapping
16:35:31 <cyril> ... it seems that the tests cover a pretty wide variety of "features"
16:35:55 <cyril> ... for example has a separate file per unicode characters
16:36:13 <cyril> nigel: if each test is a feature, how do you assess completeness of the testing vs the spec?
16:36:32 <cyril> gkatsev: as Silvia said, Apple funded the development of the tests based on the spec
16:36:42 <cyril> ... I'm assuming it's fairly complete
16:36:48 <cyril> ... but I would need to verify that
16:36:54 <atai2> q+
16:36:59 <cyril> ... but it seems the big and important parts are covered
16:37:27 <cyril> nigel: it's fair to say that there is always a bit of judgment from the group on what features are and on the coverage
16:38:15 <cyril> ... if you do that review and see areas are weaker, it would be good to bring that to the group
16:38:17 <cyril> ack atai2
16:38:36 <cyril> atai2: could you check if after the tests have been completed, if there were changes to the spec
16:38:54 <cyril> gkatsev: yes, I can check when the last change to the spec was and the last change to the tests was
16:39:09 <cyril> ... I doubt there was substantive change to the spec after the tests have been done
16:39:25 <cyril> atai2: that would be good to review it
16:39:30 <nigel> ack at
16:39:48 <cyril> nigel: anything else on webvtt?
16:39:53 <cyril> gkatsev: not for now
16:40:24 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:40:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:40:49 <cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
16:40:49 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-irc#T16-40-49
16:41:02 <atai2> atai2 has left #tt
16:42:51 <nigel> s/github-bot, end topic//
16:43:19 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:43:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:44:17 <nigel> s/IETF groups/members of the IETF group
16:44:29 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:44:39 <nigel> s/change control over this specification/change control over this specification [i.e. the media type registration]
16:44:51 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:45:09 <nigel> s/showing things are implemented twice/.. showing things are implemented twice
16:45:15 <cyril> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:45:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril
16:46:46 <cyril> scribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final rrsagent, make minutes
16:46:54 <cyril> scribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final
16:47:01 <cyril> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:47:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/24-tt-minutes.html cyril