IRC log of profgui on 2019-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:03:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #profgui
20:03:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-irc
20:03:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #profgui
20:03:37 [ncar]
@alejandra: do you need connection details?
20:03:56 [roba]
* present+
20:03:59 [PWinstanley]
https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:ProfGui-Telecon2019.01.23
20:04:48 [ncar]
present+
20:04:49 [alejandra]
present+
20:05:18 [roba]
present+
20:05:54 [PWinstanley]
present+
20:06:21 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:06:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:06:27 [alejandra]
scribenick: alejandra
20:06:45 [alejandra]
topic: action items
20:06:55 [alejandra]
s/topic: action items/
20:07:04 [alejandra]
topic: minutes from last meeting
20:07:12 [alejandra]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:07:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:07:18 [PWinstanley]
https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:ProfGui-Telecon2019.01.09
20:08:33 [ncar]
https://www.w3.org/2019/01/09-profgui-minutes.html
20:08:53 [alejandra]
+0 (not present)
20:09:14 [alejandra]
proposed: accept minutes from last meeting
20:09:17 [ncar]
+1
20:09:19 [roba]
+1
20:09:19 [PWinstanley]
+1
20:09:19 [alejandra]
+0 (not present)
20:09:22 [kcoyle]
+1
20:09:32 [alejandra]
resolved: accept minutes from last meeting
20:09:54 [alejandra]
regrets+ Antoine
20:09:57 [alejandra]
topic: action items
20:10:14 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:10:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:10:19 [ncar]
https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/products/3
20:11:00 [alejandra]
rrsagent, make logs public
20:11:28 [roba]
synbcing UCR and profgui requitrements
20:11:31 [alejandra]
ncar: action item 272 - analyse profile requirements against the guideline
20:11:39 [alejandra]
kcoyle: I think we can close that one
20:11:46 [alejandra]
... moving the requirements into the UCR did it
20:11:51 [roba]
+1
20:11:53 [alejandra]
ncar: ok, let's close it
20:12:04 [alejandra]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:12:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:12:07 [ncar]
close action-272
20:12:07 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:12:15 [ncar]
close: action-272
20:12:17 [alejandra]
chair: ncar
20:12:51 [PWinstanley]
meeting: ProfGui Subgroup
20:12:51 [alejandra]
topic: ESWC paper review
20:12:57 [kcoyle]
q+
20:13:24 [alejandra]
kcoyle: we have to make the reviews public
20:13:31 [alejandra]
... even if copied from somewhere
20:13:35 [roba]
q+
20:13:37 [alejandra]
ncar: yes, we are ready for that
20:13:47 [alejandra]
... we've got 4 reviews, we've got the in a document
20:13:56 [alejandra]
... we're tidying them up
20:14:05 [alejandra]
kcoyle: the paper is about the profiles ontology?
20:14:14 [alejandra]
... and this is the profile guidance group
20:14:24 [alejandra]
... maybe there is subset that relates to profile guidance
20:14:37 [alejandra]
ncar: we've got a couple of comments about background and information
20:14:57 [alejandra]
... we want to indicate what belongs to the ontology and what we think belongs to the guidance document
20:15:30 [alejandra]
... we don't have to spend this meeting to discuss the comments fully
20:15:47 [alejandra]
roba: we need to outline the guidelines ; are the comments confidential?
20:16:04 [alejandra]
... feedback is related to the paper and is less important to the substance of the ontology
20:16:13 [PWinstanley]
q+
20:16:20 [alejandra]
... and I think the feedback is mainly about the paper rather than the ontology
20:16:44 [alejandra]
ncar: yes, I read through the comments again and the majority are about the paper itself
20:16:57 [alejandra]
... maybe two comments about the ontology
20:17:27 [alejandra]
... the reviews are open reviews
20:17:44 [alejandra]
+q to say that the reviews are published at notification time
20:17:58 [alejandra]
... we can include them in the public comments list
20:18:03 [ncar]
q?
20:18:10 [roba]
ok cite them and reflect in the substantive matters
20:18:20 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:18:24 [ncar]
ack roba
20:18:41 [roba]
ack PWinstanley
20:18:48 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: three things: 1- I haven't seen this paper and I'd like to if possible
20:19:11 [alejandra]
... 2- are there things in the paper that would help us complete this document ?
20:19:41 [alejandra]
... 3- in the plenary, we were talking about doing the sprints and this is one of the areas that seriously needs a sprint and wanted to make sure that we discuss that today
20:19:47 [kcoyle]
+1
20:19:53 [roba]
re 2 - as ncar said it gives us some insight into guidance needs
20:20:02 [alejandra]
ncar: it is a sideshow w.r.t. the profile guidance document
20:20:15 [ncar]
ack PWinstanley
20:20:25 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: there is a big difference between writing a paper for a meeting and getting the guidance thing pushed ahead
20:20:29 [alejandra]
... we need to move on
20:20:30 [ncar]
q?
20:20:39 [ncar]
ack alejandra
20:20:39 [Zakim]
alejandra, you wanted to say that the reviews are published at notification time
20:20:54 [alejandra]
alejandra: reviews will be public when notifications are out
20:21:17 [alejandra]
ncar: there is a small number of comments related to the profile guidance, so we will refer to the reviews in the comments list
20:21:55 [alejandra]
ncar: I'll send the paper to PWinstanley after this meeting
20:21:58 [roba]
q+
20:22:06 [ncar]
ack roba
20:22:13 [alejandra]
... we could organise a workshop
20:22:30 [alejandra]
roba: the milestone for the prof guidance FPWD is broadly discussed
20:22:42 [alejandra]
... we need a couple of specific milestones and discuss when those can be done
20:22:57 [alejandra]
... identifying things in the UCR is important
20:23:07 [alejandra]
... things to discuss
20:23:33 [alejandra]
... there are lots of issues that are controversial or complicated because we have to cite evidence
20:23:37 [ncar]
topic: plans for Prof Guidance workshop
20:23:59 [alejandra]
... a milestone that is the requirements and the mapping to conneg
20:24:10 [alejandra]
... would be a substantial initial piece
20:24:22 [alejandra]
... and it is a different milestone to what is currently described
20:24:34 [alejandra]
ncar: was that milestone produced a long time ago?
20:24:39 [alejandra]
roba: yes
20:24:57 [roba]
"A definition of what is meant by an application profile and an explanation of one or more methods for publishing and sharing them."
20:25:05 [alejandra]
ncar: having a mini-workshop asap, could this be item number 1 of that workshop?
20:25:22 [ncar]
q?
20:25:38 [alejandra]
ncar: comments on that proposal?
20:25:54 [alejandra]
kcoyle: since we do have conneg and ontology in progress, it would make sense to integrate them into this document
20:26:04 [alejandra]
... it will leave a whole bunch that isn't covered
20:26:11 [PWinstanley]
q+
20:26:12 [alejandra]
... but there is no reason not to include them
20:26:20 [alejandra]
... and will help us to see what is remaining
20:26:28 [ncar]
ack PWinstanley
20:26:30 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: we need to sort out this definition
20:26:34 [roba]
we can choose a second milestone for FPWD
20:26:44 [alejandra]
... the discussion is still going, e.g. with base specification
20:27:00 [roba]
-1 for changing the defintion - it would without defining BaseSpecification as a class
20:27:23 [alejandra]
ncar: we don't have any substantial discussion about the ontology
20:27:27 [roba]
s/would/works/
20:27:34 [alejandra]
... the discussion about base specification has been resolved
20:27:41 [kcoyle]
which document are you speaking about?
20:27:43 [kcoyle]
q+
20:27:43 [roba]
its a change to the ontology - but not the definiton
20:27:58 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:28:01 [roba]
definition is common to all documents (please!)
20:28:07 [alejandra]
kcoyle: what document are you referring to? the ontology document?
20:28:14 [alejandra]
... that is not what PWinstanley is talking about
20:28:24 [alejandra]
... he is talking about the profgui document
20:28:27 [roba]
q+
20:28:28 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: exactly
20:28:33 [PWinstanley]
https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/profiles/
20:29:01 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: we had Annette, me, Antoine, we've been doing different versions of it and we need to move on from that
20:29:20 [alejandra]
... and come back to the introduction and the abstract after the sections and subsections have been completed
20:29:38 [alejandra]
... the definition will be more clear after that
20:30:06 [alejandra]
ncar: the proposal at the moment is to do away with the phrase base specification
20:30:14 [ncar]
ack roba
20:30:27 [alejandra]
... when we complete this action, we can think of the use of base spec in the guidance doc
20:30:44 [alejandra]
roba: the definition that we agreed that would be common to all documents is still fine
20:30:49 [alejandra]
... base spec defines a role
20:31:03 [alejandra]
... and the change in the ontology is independent
20:31:13 [alejandra]
... still seems to meet the requirements in the UCR
20:31:21 [alejandra]
... if we have evidence of something that breaks it, fine
20:31:41 [alejandra]
... if we need to clarify saying that base spec is whatever the standard is referring to
20:31:57 [alejandra]
... we can write a piece of text extending the explanation
20:32:00 [PWinstanley]
+1 to roba suggesting we move on
20:32:10 [alejandra]
... but I'm reluctant on changing the definition
20:32:20 [alejandra]
ncar: shall we define what to do in a workshop?
20:32:26 [kcoyle]
q+
20:32:28 [alejandra]
... and then see when this could happen
20:32:41 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:33:26 [alejandra]
kcoyle: the key thing is not whether or when we will have it, but how
20:33:29 [alejandra]
... let's define actions
20:33:49 [roba]
ok next week
20:33:51 [kcoyle]
+1
20:33:52 [alejandra]
ncar: are people on this call available on the first 3 days of next week for instance?
20:34:01 [alejandra]
yes, in principle
20:34:19 [roba]
* prefer not within 12am-6am window :-)
20:35:02 [roba]
q+ to talk about duration
20:35:04 [alejandra]
ncar: not easy to find a time slot with a mix of North America / Europe / Australia
20:35:12 [ncar]
ack roba
20:35:12 [Zakim]
roba, you wanted to talk about duration
20:35:23 [alejandra]
roba: we talked about 3 hours sprints
20:35:43 [alejandra]
... we can make substantive comments in 1 1/2 h
20:35:54 [alejandra]
... if we know what we are doing
20:35:58 [alejandra]
+1 to roba
20:36:13 [alejandra]
ncar: suggestion is to propose a series of times
20:36:46 [alejandra]
action ncar to send out doodle poll
20:36:46 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:37:05 [alejandra]
ncar: so, as discussed, let's come up with an agenda
20:37:23 [alejandra]
... we had some discussion about base spec, and roba mention about triaging the issues
20:37:29 [roba]
q+
20:37:32 [PWinstanley]
q+
20:37:33 [alejandra]
... can someone else suggest more topics?
20:37:34 [ncar]
ack roba
20:37:52 [alejandra]
roba: one of the things we want to do is come up with a standard wording when referring to other documents
20:38:02 [ncar]
ack PWinstanley
20:38:06 [alejandra]
... this is probably a little bit tricky but it's something we need to prioritise
20:38:25 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: going to the documents, it's completely scattered with pink boxes relating to the issues
20:38:35 [alejandra]
... and going to the google doc and things like that
20:38:57 [alejandra]
... going all the way through sections 2.1 and 2.6 and replacing the pink boxes
20:39:05 [roba]
+1 for removing all google docs and putting in even placeholder text
20:39:10 [alejandra]
... would be helpful
20:39:24 [kcoyle]
+1 to writing - we need some writing
20:39:38 [alejandra]
PWinstanley: I see these meetings being collaborative writing of text rather than discussing something and going away to write it
20:39:44 [alejandra]
... maybe we can work on a google doc
20:39:53 [roba]
+1 collaborative writing. We could use a google doc as long as we transcribe when agreement made in the meting
20:40:03 [ncar]
+1 to above
20:40:16 [alejandra]
... we can move quickly through the red boxes and replace them with some proper narrative
20:40:20 [kcoyle]
q+
20:40:33 [alejandra]
+1 to collaborative writing
20:40:55 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:40:59 [alejandra]
kcoyle: I'd drop the base specification one
20:41:08 [alejandra]
... we agreed that we're going to leave it until we have more
20:41:21 [alejandra]
... there are some issues that we have, where we have quite a bit written
20:41:40 [alejandra]
... my question is: should we go ahead and put those in here or should we look at the issues first?
20:41:51 [roba]
i think triage that issues are referenced
20:42:04 [alejandra]
ncar: if we took the google doc, why don't we say that people will find the summary of the issues and put them in the google doc?
20:42:11 [alejandra]
kcoyle: we kind of have them on this document
20:42:32 [alejandra]
ncar: we need to include what we have in the document
20:42:34 [roba]
i think use google doc only during meetings and dont allow it to persist...
20:42:42 [alejandra]
kcoyle: someone has done a google doc to respec translate
20:42:46 [roba]
q+
20:43:04 [alejandra]
... we can get this structure as something we can write into without having to go through github
20:43:32 [alejandra]
ncar: if we are only addressing a subset of the document, I can include it into a google doc and then put it back
20:43:32 [ncar]
ack roba
20:43:56 [alejandra]
roba: my view is that google doc is great for collaborative writing and terrible for persistence and tracking changes
20:44:08 [alejandra]
... so we can use a google doc for collaborative writing and then move it to github
20:44:12 [PWinstanley]
+1 to the mixed approach roba suggests
20:44:24 [ncar]
+1 to approach
20:44:31 [alejandra]
... the google doc should be thrown away
20:44:35 [alejandra]
... after a session
20:45:33 [alejandra]
ncar: happy to treat this as set up and tear down thing
20:45:57 [alejandra]
... prepare google doc before the workshop and transfer it over after the workshop
20:46:23 [alejandra]
roba: we could do it as we go along, rather than leave it to transcribe at the end
20:46:27 [kcoyle]
q+
20:46:47 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:46:52 [alejandra]
ncar: we have a couple of topics that would be suitable for a couple of sections
20:47:17 [alejandra]
kcoyle: either ncar or roba feel that they can fill the conneg work and profile ontology work between now and then?
20:47:20 [roba]
ok - i will do a triage for the ontology references
20:47:21 [alejandra]
ncar: I think that's possible
20:47:54 [alejandra]
... the semi-urgent things we need to deal are some responses related to the paper on the ontology
20:48:00 [alejandra]
... but no other thing too urgent
20:48:00 [PWinstanley]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:48:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:48:10 [alejandra]
... so I think that's possible
20:48:25 [roba]
q+
20:48:30 [ncar]
ack roba
20:48:32 [alejandra]
action ncar address as many issues for conneg and profile ontology doc before guidance workshop
20:48:32 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:48:51 [alejandra]
s/action ncar address as many issues for conneg and profile ontology doc before guidance workshop/
20:49:25 [alejandra]
action ncar address as many issues for conneg before guidance workshop
20:49:25 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:49:36 [alejandra]
action roba address as many issues for profiles ontology before guidance workshop
20:49:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:49:44 [alejandra]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:49:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:50:20 [ncar]
summarising suggested agenda for workshop: 1. Create a referal wording for Guidance doc to other Profile docs, 2. Triage Issues - handoff to other docs, 3. Issues in Sections 2.1 - 2.6
20:50:25 [kcoyle]
q+
20:50:31 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:50:47 [alejandra]
kcoyle: could the issue about how to link from one to the other become a github issue?
20:51:01 [alejandra]
... this would leave more time for us to write
20:51:05 [alejandra]
roba: yes
20:51:08 [alejandra]
ncar: ok
20:51:12 [roba]
proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone to be "Have all requirements in UCR represented and cross referenced, and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:51:35 [roba]
"Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:51:54 [roba]
q+
20:52:33 [roba]
proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:52:43 [ncar]
summarising suggested agenda for workshop: 1. Review outcome from an Issue discussiong doc referal text, 2. Triage Issues - handoff to other docs, 3. Issues in Sections 2.1 - 2.6
20:52:47 [ncar]
ack roba
20:53:25 [alejandra]
proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:53:25 [kcoyle]
q+
20:53:36 [ncar]
topic: reform Milestone for Guidance doc
20:53:39 [alejandra]
proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:53:50 [ncar]
ack kcoyle
20:54:08 [alejandra]
action ncar to create the google doc
20:54:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:54:51 [roba]
+1
20:54:52 [ncar]
+1
20:54:52 [kcoyle]
+1 to milestone
20:54:59 [alejandra]
+1
20:55:12 [PWinstanley]
+1
20:55:23 [alejandra]
resolved: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:55:44 [kcoyle]
rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:55:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html kcoyle
20:58:02 [PWinstanley]
PWinstanley has left #profgui