20:03:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #profgui
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-irc
20:03:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #profgui
20:03:37 <ncar> @alejandra: do you need connection details?
20:03:56 <roba> * present+
20:03:59 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:ProfGui-Telecon2019.01.23
20:04:48 <ncar> present+
20:04:49 <alejandra> present+
20:05:18 <roba> present+
20:05:54 <PWinstanley> present+
20:06:21 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:06:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:06:27 <alejandra> scribenick: alejandra
20:06:45 <alejandra> topic: action items
20:06:55 <alejandra> s/topic: action items/
20:07:04 <alejandra> topic: minutes from last meeting
20:07:12 <alejandra> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:07:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:07:18 <PWinstanley> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:ProfGui-Telecon2019.01.09
20:08:33 <ncar> https://www.w3.org/2019/01/09-profgui-minutes.html
20:08:53 <alejandra> +0 (not present)
20:09:14 <alejandra> proposed: accept minutes from last meeting
20:09:17 <ncar> +1
20:09:19 <roba> +1
20:09:19 <PWinstanley> +1
20:09:19 <alejandra>  +0 (not present)
20:09:22 <kcoyle> +1
20:09:32 <alejandra> resolved: accept minutes from last meeting
20:09:54 <alejandra> regrets+ Antoine
20:09:57 <alejandra> topic: action items
20:10:14 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:10:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:10:19 <ncar> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/products/3
20:11:00 <alejandra> rrsagent, make logs public
20:11:28 <roba> synbcing UCR and profgui requitrements
20:11:31 <alejandra> ncar: action item 272 - analyse profile requirements against the guideline
20:11:39 <alejandra> kcoyle: I think we can close that one
20:11:46 <alejandra> ... moving the requirements into the UCR did it
20:11:51 <roba> +1
20:11:53 <alejandra> ncar: ok, let's close it
20:12:04 <alejandra> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:12:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:12:07 <ncar> close action-272
20:12:07 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:12:15 <ncar> close: action-272
20:12:17 <alejandra> chair: ncar
20:12:51 <PWinstanley> meeting: ProfGui Subgroup
20:12:51 <alejandra> topic: ESWC paper review
20:12:57 <kcoyle> q+
20:13:24 <alejandra> kcoyle: we have to make the reviews public
20:13:31 <alejandra> ... even if copied from somewhere
20:13:35 <roba> q+
20:13:37 <alejandra> ncar: yes, we are ready for that
20:13:47 <alejandra> ... we've got 4 reviews, we've got the in a document
20:13:56 <alejandra> ... we're tidying them up
20:14:05 <alejandra> kcoyle: the paper is about the profiles ontology?
20:14:14 <alejandra> ... and this is the profile guidance group
20:14:24 <alejandra> ... maybe there is subset that relates to profile guidance
20:14:37 <alejandra> ncar: we've got a couple of comments about background and information
20:14:57 <alejandra> ... we want to indicate what belongs to the ontology and what we think belongs to the guidance document
20:15:30 <alejandra> ... we don't have to spend this meeting to discuss the comments fully
20:15:47 <alejandra> roba: we need to outline the guidelines ; are the comments confidential?
20:16:04 <alejandra> ... feedback is related to the paper and is less important to the substance of the ontology
20:16:13 <PWinstanley> q+
20:16:20 <alejandra> ... and I think the feedback is mainly about the paper rather than the ontology
20:16:44 <alejandra> ncar: yes, I read through the comments again and the majority are about the paper itself
20:16:57 <alejandra> ... maybe two comments about the ontology
20:17:27 <alejandra> ... the reviews are open reviews
20:17:44 <alejandra> +q to say that the reviews are published at notification time
20:17:58 <alejandra> ... we can include them in the public comments list
20:18:03 <ncar> q?
20:18:10 <roba> ok cite them and reflect in the substantive matters
20:18:20 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:18:24 <ncar> ack roba
20:18:41 <roba> ack PWinstanley
20:18:48 <alejandra> PWinstanley: three things: 1- I haven't seen this paper and I'd like to if possible
20:19:11 <alejandra> ... 2- are there things in the paper that would help us complete this document ?
20:19:41 <alejandra> ... 3- in the plenary, we were talking about doing the sprints and this is one of the areas that seriously needs a sprint and wanted to make sure that we discuss that today
20:19:47 <kcoyle> +1
20:19:53 <roba> re 2 - as ncar said it gives us some insight into guidance needs
20:20:02 <alejandra> ncar: it is a sideshow w.r.t. the profile guidance document
20:20:15 <ncar> ack PWinstanley
20:20:25 <alejandra> PWinstanley: there is a big difference between writing a paper for a meeting and getting the guidance thing pushed ahead
20:20:29 <alejandra> ... we need to move on
20:20:30 <ncar> q?
20:20:39 <ncar> ack alejandra
20:20:39 <Zakim> alejandra, you wanted to say that the reviews are published at notification time
20:20:54 <alejandra> alejandra: reviews will be public when notifications are out
20:21:17 <alejandra> ncar: there is a small number of comments related to the profile guidance, so we will refer to the reviews in the comments list
20:21:55 <alejandra> ncar: I'll send the paper to PWinstanley after this meeting
20:21:58 <roba> q+
20:22:06 <ncar> ack roba
20:22:13 <alejandra> ... we could organise a workshop
20:22:30 <alejandra> roba: the milestone for the prof guidance FPWD is broadly discussed
20:22:42 <alejandra> ... we need a couple of specific milestones and discuss when those can be done
20:22:57 <alejandra> ... identifying things in the UCR is important
20:23:07 <alejandra> ... things to discuss
20:23:33 <alejandra> ... there are lots of issues that are controversial or complicated because we have to cite evidence
20:23:37 <ncar> topic: plans for Prof Guidance workshop
20:23:59 <alejandra> ... a milestone that is the requirements and the mapping to conneg
20:24:10 <alejandra> ... would be a substantial initial piece
20:24:22 <alejandra> ... and it is a different milestone to what is currently described
20:24:34 <alejandra> ncar: was that milestone produced a long time ago?
20:24:39 <alejandra> roba: yes
20:24:57 <roba> "A definition of what is meant by an application profile and an explanation of one or more methods for publishing and sharing them."
20:25:05 <alejandra> ncar: having a mini-workshop asap, could this be item number 1 of that workshop?
20:25:22 <ncar> q?
20:25:38 <alejandra> ncar: comments on that proposal?
20:25:54 <alejandra> kcoyle: since we do have conneg and ontology in progress, it would make sense to integrate them into this document
20:26:04 <alejandra> ... it will leave a whole bunch that isn't covered
20:26:11 <PWinstanley> q+
20:26:12 <alejandra> ... but there is no reason not to include them
20:26:20 <alejandra> ... and will help us to see what is remaining
20:26:28 <ncar> ack PWinstanley
20:26:30 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we need to sort out this definition
20:26:34 <roba> we can choose a second milestone for FPWD
20:26:44 <alejandra> ... the discussion is still going, e.g. with base specification
20:27:00 <roba> -1 for changing the defintion - it would without defining BaseSpecification as a class
20:27:23 <alejandra> ncar: we don't have any substantial discussion about the ontology
20:27:27 <roba> s/would/works/
20:27:34 <alejandra> ... the discussion about base specification has been resolved
20:27:41 <kcoyle> which document are you speaking about?
20:27:43 <kcoyle> q+
20:27:43 <roba> its a change to the ontology - but not the definiton
20:27:58 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:28:01 <roba> definition is common to all documents (please!)
20:28:07 <alejandra> kcoyle: what document are you referring to? the ontology document?
20:28:14 <alejandra> ... that is not what PWinstanley is talking about
20:28:24 <alejandra> ... he is talking about the profgui document
20:28:27 <roba> q+
20:28:28 <alejandra> PWinstanley: exactly
20:28:33 <PWinstanley> https://w3c.github.io/dxwg/profiles/
20:29:01 <alejandra> PWinstanley: we had Annette, me, Antoine, we've been doing different versions of it and we need to move on from that
20:29:20 <alejandra> ... and come back to the introduction and the abstract after the sections and subsections have been completed
20:29:38 <alejandra> ... the definition will be more clear after that
20:30:06 <alejandra> ncar: the proposal at the moment is to do away with the phrase base specification
20:30:14 <ncar> ack roba
20:30:27 <alejandra> ... when we complete this action, we can think of the use of base spec in the guidance doc
20:30:44 <alejandra> roba: the definition that we agreed that would be common to all documents is still fine
20:30:49 <alejandra> ... base spec defines a role
20:31:03 <alejandra> ... and the change in the ontology is independent
20:31:13 <alejandra> ... still seems to meet the requirements in the UCR
20:31:21 <alejandra> ... if we have evidence of something that breaks it, fine
20:31:41 <alejandra> ... if we need to clarify saying that base spec is whatever the standard is referring to
20:31:57 <alejandra> ... we can write a piece of text extending the explanation
20:32:00 <PWinstanley> +1 to roba  suggesting we move on
20:32:10 <alejandra> ... but I'm reluctant on changing the definition
20:32:20 <alejandra> ncar: shall we define what to do in a workshop?
20:32:26 <kcoyle> q+
20:32:28 <alejandra> ... and then see when this could happen
20:32:41 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:33:26 <alejandra> kcoyle: the key thing is not whether or when we will have it, but how
20:33:29 <alejandra> ... let's define actions
20:33:49 <roba> ok next week
20:33:51 <kcoyle> +1
20:33:52 <alejandra> ncar: are people on this call available on the first 3 days of next week for instance?
20:34:01 <alejandra> yes, in principle
20:34:19 <roba> * prefer not within 12am-6am window :-)
20:35:02 <roba> q+ to talk about duration
20:35:04 <alejandra> ncar: not easy to find a time slot with a mix of North America  / Europe / Australia
20:35:12 <ncar> ack roba
20:35:12 <Zakim> roba, you wanted to talk about duration
20:35:23 <alejandra> roba: we talked about 3 hours sprints
20:35:43 <alejandra> ... we can make substantive comments in 1 1/2 h
20:35:54 <alejandra> ... if we know what we are doing
20:35:58 <alejandra> +1 to roba
20:36:13 <alejandra> ncar: suggestion is to propose a series of times
20:36:46 <alejandra> action ncar to send out doodle poll
20:36:46 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:37:05 <alejandra> ncar: so, as discussed, let's come up with an agenda
20:37:23 <alejandra> ... we had some discussion about base spec, and roba mention about triaging the issues
20:37:29 <roba> q+
20:37:32 <PWinstanley> q+
20:37:33 <alejandra> ... can someone else suggest more topics?
20:37:34 <ncar> ack roba
20:37:52 <alejandra> roba: one of the things we want to do is come up with a standard wording when referring to other documents
20:38:02 <ncar> ack PWinstanley
20:38:06 <alejandra> ... this is probably a little bit tricky but it's something we need to prioritise
20:38:25 <alejandra> PWinstanley: going to the documents, it's completely scattered with pink boxes relating to the issues
20:38:35 <alejandra> ... and going to the google doc and things like that
20:38:57 <alejandra> ... going all the way through sections 2.1 and 2.6 and replacing the pink boxes
20:39:05 <roba> +1 for removing all google docs and putting in even placeholder text
20:39:10 <alejandra> ... would be helpful
20:39:24 <kcoyle> +1 to writing - we need some writing
20:39:38 <alejandra> PWinstanley: I see these meetings being collaborative writing of text rather than discussing something and going away to write it
20:39:44 <alejandra> ... maybe we can work on a google doc
20:39:53 <roba> +1 collaborative writing.  We could use a google doc as long as we transcribe when agreement made in the meting
20:40:03 <ncar> +1 to above
20:40:16 <alejandra> ... we can move quickly through the red boxes and replace them with some proper narrative
20:40:20 <kcoyle> q+
20:40:33 <alejandra> +1 to collaborative writing
20:40:55 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:40:59 <alejandra> kcoyle: I'd drop the base specification one
20:41:08 <alejandra> ... we agreed that we're going to leave it until we have more
20:41:21 <alejandra> ... there are some issues that we have, where we have quite a bit written
20:41:40 <alejandra> ... my question is: should we go ahead and put those in here or should we look at the issues first?
20:41:51 <roba> i think triage that issues are referenced
20:42:04 <alejandra> ncar: if we took the google doc, why don't we say that people will find the summary of the issues and put them in the google doc?
20:42:11 <alejandra> kcoyle: we kind of have them on this document
20:42:32 <alejandra> ncar: we need to include what we have in the document
20:42:34 <roba> i think use google doc only during meetings and dont allow it to persist...
20:42:42 <alejandra> kcoyle: someone has done a google doc to respec translate
20:42:46 <roba> q+
20:43:04 <alejandra> ... we can get this structure as something we can write into without having to go through github
20:43:32 <alejandra> ncar: if we are only addressing a subset of the document, I can include it into a google doc and then put it back
20:43:32 <ncar> ack roba
20:43:56 <alejandra> roba: my view is that google doc is great for collaborative writing and terrible for persistence and tracking changes
20:44:08 <alejandra> ... so we can use a google doc for collaborative writing and then move it to github
20:44:12 <PWinstanley> +1 to the mixed approach roba  suggests
20:44:24 <ncar> +1 to approach
20:44:31 <alejandra> ... the google doc should be thrown away
20:44:35 <alejandra> ... after a session
20:45:33 <alejandra> ncar: happy to treat this as set up and tear down thing
20:45:57 <alejandra> ... prepare google doc before the workshop and transfer it over after the workshop
20:46:23 <alejandra> roba: we could do it as we go along, rather than leave it to transcribe at the end
20:46:27 <kcoyle> q+
20:46:47 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:46:52 <alejandra> ncar: we have a couple of topics that would be suitable for a couple of sections
20:47:17 <alejandra> kcoyle: either ncar or roba feel that they can fill the conneg work and profile ontology work between now and then?
20:47:20 <roba> ok - i will do a triage for the ontology references
20:47:21 <alejandra> ncar: I think that's possible
20:47:54 <alejandra> ... the semi-urgent things we need to deal are some responses related to the paper on the ontology
20:48:00 <alejandra> ... but no other thing too urgent
20:48:00 <PWinstanley> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:48:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html PWinstanley
20:48:10 <alejandra> ... so I think that's possible
20:48:25 <roba> q+
20:48:30 <ncar> ack roba
20:48:32 <alejandra> action ncar address as many issues for conneg and profile ontology doc before guidance workshop
20:48:32 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:48:51 <alejandra> s/action ncar address as many issues for conneg and profile ontology doc before guidance workshop/
20:49:25 <alejandra> action ncar address as many issues for conneg  before guidance workshop
20:49:25 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:49:36 <alejandra> action roba address as many issues for profiles ontology  before guidance workshop
20:49:36 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:49:44 <alejandra> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:49:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html alejandra
20:50:20 <ncar> summarising suggested agenda for workshop: 1. Create a referal wording for Guidance doc to other Profile docs, 2. Triage Issues - handoff to other docs, 3. Issues in Sections 2.1 - 2.6
20:50:25 <kcoyle> q+
20:50:31 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:50:47 <alejandra> kcoyle: could the issue about how to link from one to the other become a github issue?
20:51:01 <alejandra> ... this would leave more time for us to write
20:51:05 <alejandra> roba: yes
20:51:08 <alejandra> ncar: ok
20:51:12 <roba> proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone to be "Have all requirements in UCR represented and cross referenced, and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:51:35 <roba> "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:51:54 <roba> q+
20:52:33 <roba> proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:52:43 <ncar> summarising suggested agenda for workshop: 1. Review outcome from an Issue discussiong doc referal text, 2. Triage Issues - handoff to other docs, 3. Issues in Sections 2.1 - 2.6
20:52:47 <ncar> ack roba
20:53:25 <alejandra> proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:53:25 <kcoyle> q+
20:53:36 <ncar> topic: reform Milestone for Guidance doc
20:53:39 <alejandra> proposed: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:53:50 <ncar> ack kcoyle
20:54:08 <alejandra> action ncar to create the google doc
20:54:08 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:54:51 <roba> +1
20:54:52 <ncar> +1
20:54:52 <kcoyle> +1 to milestone
20:54:59 <alejandra> +1
20:55:12 <PWinstanley> +1
20:55:23 <alejandra> resolved: rewrite FWPD milestone as "Have all requirements in UCR represented and addressed with a cross reference, agreed text or an open issue"
20:55:44 <kcoyle> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:55:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2019/01/23-profgui-minutes.html kcoyle
20:58:02 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has left #profgui