IRC log of tt on 2018-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:29 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tt

15:00:29 [RRSAgent]

logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/12/13-tt-irc

15:00:31 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

15:00:31 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #tt

15:00:33 [trackbot]

Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

15:00:33 [trackbot]

Date: 13 December 2018

15:00:37 [nigel]

Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/12/13-tt-irc

15:00:39 [nigel]

scribe: nigel

15:00:43 [nigel]

Present: Nigel

15:00:50 [nigel]

Regrets: Thierry, Gary

15:00:52 [nigel]

Chair: Nigel

15:01:25 [nigel]

Present+ Glenn

15:02:50 [nigel]

Present+ Cyril, Pierre

15:03:45 [nigel]

Topic: This meeting

15:05:00 [nigel]

Nigel: Today we have regrets from Thierry and Gary.

15:05:31 [nigel]

.. There's been action on the TTML profile registry and the requirements so they

15:05:49 [nigel]

.. will be our main agenda topics for today.

15:06:07 [nigel]

.. I don't know if anyone wants to discuss the CSS issue I sent to the reflector

15:06:17 [nigel]

.. earlier about the combination of ruby and text emphasis and where the

15:06:22 [nigel]

.. resulting marks should go?

15:06:46 [cyril]

cyril has joined #tt

15:06:57 [nigel]

Glenn: I don't think that's been raised before and I don't have an immediate

15:07:01 [nigel]

.. response to it either.

15:07:16 [nigel]

.. It is certainly something that the spec should have language to address to I

15:07:22 [nigel]

.. think we'll have some follow-on actions.

15:07:33 [nigel]

.. Do you want to post an issue on TTML2 or shall I do that?

15:07:47 [nigel]

Nigel: I'd probably be happier if you or possibly Cyril were to raise it as being

15:08:05 [nigel]

.. stronger proponents (and more importantly more knowledgeable) about ruby etc.

15:08:16 [nigel]

Glenn: Okay I'll file an issue and refer to your email in archives.

15:08:18 [nigel]

Nigel: Thank you.

15:08:38 [nigel]

.. That means we'll defer discussion of that issue until a later date if we need a

15:08:47 [nigel]

.. discussion on a call about it at all of course.

15:09:07 [nigel]

.. Back to the agenda, I don't think there's anything on the f2f meeting or anything

15:09:21 [nigel]

.. else on CSS. We don't have Gary today so I don't think we'll be covering

15:09:32 [nigel]

.. WebVTT. Is there any other business to discuss or particular points to make

15:09:35 [nigel]

.. sure we cover today?

15:09:50 [nigel]

group: [silence]

15:10:02 [nigel]

Nigel: I should say I have to catch a plane later so I'd appreciate closing the

15:10:14 [nigel]

.. meeting by the end of the hour so I have a bit of extra leeway.

15:10:39 [nigel]

Topic: TTML Profile Registry

15:10:50 [nigel]

Nigel: Thank you Glenn for merging those pull requests.

15:11:06 [nigel]

Glenn: I need to update the PR on alphabetical ordering and make some progress

15:11:16 [nigel]

.. on the other issues. My time has been completely occupied and probably will

15:11:29 [nigel]

.. be until mid-next-week on other matters, after that I expect to get to those.

15:11:35 [nigel]

Nigel: Ok, thanks for letting us know.

15:12:38 [nigel]

.. I see from https://github.com/w3c/tt-profile-registry/pulse that the two

15:12:48 [nigel]

.. issues and pull requests we discussed last week were closed/merged.

15:12:54 [nigel]

.. Is there anything else on this right now?

15:12:57 [nigel]

Glenn: I don't have anything.

15:13:31 [nigel]

Topic: TTWG Future requirements

15:13:49 [nigel]

Nigel: Thank you Cyril for raising the responsive timed text and karaoke issues.

15:14:46 [nigel]

q+ to mention audio subtitles

15:14:57 [nigel]

Cyril: I did not follow the template but I hope that's fine.

15:15:08 [nigel]

Glenn: The templates are for writing follow-on more detailed descriptions.

15:15:11 [nigel]

.. The issue content is free-form.

15:15:32 [nigel]

ack nigel

15:15:32 [Zakim]

nigel, you wanted to mention audio subtitles

15:15:49 [nigel]

Nigel: One requirement that has been brought to my attention today at the

15:16:10 [nigel]

.. ITU/EC Accessible Europe event is to support "audio subtitles". I've asked

15:16:21 [nigel]

.. a proponent to raise the requirement as an issue or offered to do it on her

15:16:29 [nigel]

.. behalf (she's not especially technical).

15:16:40 [nigel]

.. So hopefully that will be raised by the deadline next week.

15:16:58 [nigel]

.. For those unaware, this is the ability to trigger text to speech for translation

15:17:09 [nigel]

.. subtitles mixed in with hard of hearing subtitles. It could well be that no

15:17:19 [nigel]

.. spec changes are needed, but I've asked for the requirements to be submitted

15:17:26 [nigel]

.. so we can satisfy ourselves about that.

15:18:51 [nigel]

.. For those unaware, this is the facility to trigger text to speech for translations

15:19:11 [nigel]

.. to support viewers unable to read the translation text, i.e. it bridges across

15:19:27 [nigel]

.. from a "subtitling culture" to a "dubbing culture" for those to whom that provides a benefit.

15:19:54 [nigel]

.. Does anyone want to discuss any of the specific issues that have been raised

15:19:55 [nigel]

.. so far?

15:20:02 [nigel]

Cyril: One small aspect to discuss is condition.

15:20:14 [nigel]

.. In the responsive design use case I tried to use the condition element, and I

15:20:26 [nigel]

.. mentioned in the issue I am not clear how condition behaves in terms of

15:20:48 [nigel]

.. processing and XML processing in general. You want to re-use the same

15:21:04 [nigel]

.. style id and define it differently depending on the conditions.

15:21:14 [nigel]

Glenn: That's illegal in XML. You can't do that.

15:21:18 [nigel]

Nigel: I've raised this before too.

15:21:28 [nigel]

Glenn: There are different ways to do it. You can't really switch regions, but

15:21:39 [nigel]

.. you can switch animations of regions, e.g. moving a region via conditional

15:21:52 [nigel]

.. animation that achieves the same effect. You can also have styles attached to

15:22:04 [nigel]

.. regions which are conditional. You would reference multiple styles, say you

15:22:08 [nigel]

.. want to switch between A and B.

15:22:16 [nigel]

Cyril: You reference both and only one is activated.

15:22:25 [nigel]

Glenn: Exactly. It may not be the most elegant design but technically it does

15:22:43 [nigel]

.. work and I did test this. I will try to comment to the same effect on the issue.

15:22:47 [nigel]

Cyril: Thank you.

15:22:58 [nigel]

Nigel: There's a thread about this probably on a TTML2 issue that should be

15:23:09 [nigel]

.. closed from the review stage back in the summer where I raised the same

15:23:17 [nigel]

.. question and we came to the same conclusion.

15:23:39 [nigel]

.. One thing you can do to simplify it from the authoring perspective is to

15:23:49 [nigel]

.. reference one style from the content and have that style itself reference the

15:23:55 [nigel]

.. conditionalised styles.

15:24:59 [nigel]

.. For example paragraphStyle -> (bigParagraphStyle, smallParagraphStyle)

15:25:11 [nigel]

.. where each of those is conditionalised so the style tree resolution handles

15:25:23 [nigel]

.. the complexity and the content just needs to reference paragraphStyle.

15:25:26 [nigel]

Cyril: Thank you.

15:25:55 [nigel]

Pierre: So I think the question is if the condition mechanism is adequate to

15:26:06 [nigel]

.. satisfy the use cases we have in front of us. We don't have to decide that on

15:26:13 [nigel]

.. this call, but I would ask that question.

15:26:24 [nigel]

.. Since we have had two people raise similar feedback.

15:26:35 [nigel]

Glenn: Just as a note on that point there is no real way that we can have a

15:26:47 [nigel]

.. conditionalised syntax mechanism that makes something syntactically present

15:26:57 [nigel]

.. or not because XML itself would require that feature or you would need a

15:27:08 [nigel]

.. macro processor or something that you run the document through before

15:27:22 [nigel]

.. feeding it to your XML system. I don't view that as very practical. We maybe

15:27:36 [nigel]

.. just need to do a better job with examples in the spec. There is some language

15:27:42 [nigel]

.. that emphasises it is the semantics.

15:27:51 [nigel]

Cyril: An example would help, I searched for one but could not find one.

15:27:54 [nigel]

Glenn: Good point.

15:28:03 [nigel]

Pierre: Maybe the right way to start is to compose practical examples and see

15:28:10 [nigel]

.. where that leads us in refining the spec.

15:28:19 [nigel]

Glenn: Sure. That may be the ultimate outcome of this issue for example.

15:28:29 [nigel]

Pierre: Exactly, especially as we have two participants who support this use

15:28:37 [nigel]

.. case it would be good to put together concrete examples.

15:28:48 [nigel]

Cyril: I agree with what's been said - most of the requirement does not need

15:28:55 [nigel]

.. new things in TTML, just clarifications.

15:29:19 [nigel]

.. One thing I added was the ability to conditionally split content. Is there anything

15:29:24 [nigel]

.. that already can do this?

15:29:37 [nigel]

Nigel: I've thought about this too and have similar use cases. The one suggestion

15:29:48 [nigel]

.. that I think Glenn made some time ago is that there could be conditional

15:30:01 [nigel]

.. br elements, but I don't think that completely achieves the result. Instead

15:30:13 [nigel]

.. you're conditionally changing the timing of presentation, and I don't think I've

15:30:25 [nigel]

.. seen that expressed so clearly before. Though those with long memories

15:30:48 [nigel]

.. may remember a demo I gave at TPAC (maybe 2015?) where the user had a

15:31:04 [nigel]

.. slider to adjust the text size, and depending on the size, the amount of visible

15:31:19 [cyril]

yes 2015

15:31:22 [nigel]

.. text varied so it always occupied one line, but the rate of change was adjusted

15:31:32 [nigel]

.. to keep up with the audio.

15:31:38 [nigel]

.. That was in Sapporo I believe.

15:32:02 [nigel]

.. That could be considered an example of responsive display and I don't know

15:32:08 [nigel]

.. how you could do that using condition alone.

15:32:29 [nigel]

.. Assuming that duplicating a lot of content is undesirable of course.

15:33:03 [nigel]

Cyril: I would be interested to see that demo if you have it.

15:33:13 [nigel]

Nigel: I have it but only on my computer so maybe its one for the f2f!

15:33:27 [nigel]

Cyril: In this demo and the conditional breaking of events, I see some commonality

15:33:39 [nigel]

.. with the karaoke use case in the sense that if you provide more granularity

15:33:53 [nigel]

.. in the timing then the processor can do something more with it. I call that

15:34:05 [nigel]

.. internal timing with markers that are not used all the time.

15:34:17 [nigel]

Glenn: What do you mean by "event"? We don't have that in TTML.

15:34:26 [nigel]

Cyril: For example a p with a begin and end is an event.

15:34:33 [nigel]

Glenn: How about a span with a begin and end?

15:34:43 [nigel]

Cyril: Yes, something that is displayed on the screen for some time.

15:34:51 [nigel]

Glenn: I guess we'd call it active interval or something.

15:35:00 [nigel]

Cyril: You see why I called it "event" because that's simpler!

15:35:02 [nigel]

Glenn: Yes I see

15:35:10 [nigel]

s/active interval/active temporal interval

15:35:29 [nigel]

Glenn: The "event" as you use it is a little different because it implies a semantic

15:35:41 [nigel]

.. consistency or relatedness whereas an active interval is like the smallest

15:35:52 [nigel]

.. timeslices that divide up all the begin and end times that apply in the whole

15:36:06 [nigel]

.. document so you could have active intervals generated by unrelated content

15:36:17 [nigel]

.. simply because they have intersecting activation or deactivation times.

15:36:19 [nigel]

Nigel: Yes

15:36:56 [nigel]

Nigel: That idea of the marker is something I've thought about in the past but

15:37:07 [nigel]

.. never taken any further. The other useful construct to observe or be aware of

15:37:26 [nigel]

.. is the idea of a pseudo selector that affects things in the future vs things in

15:37:32 [nigel]

.. the past, which WebVTT has.

15:37:49 [nigel]

.. That's quite a powerful idea in this context. I'm not clear if it does everything

15:38:00 [nigel]

.. that's needed but it's pretty easy to see how it is useful for karaoke for example.

15:38:38 [nigel]

.. It's a different way to think about the problem, I'm not sure if it addresses the use case.

15:39:00 [nigel]

Cyril: I agree Nigel. The marker is similar to one of the tags in WebVTT where you

15:39:20 [nigel]

.. can set a tag to affect anything, e.g. a speaker, and it does not affect the

15:39:41 [nigel]

.. display. Is it the v tag?

15:39:59 [nigel]

Nigel: I'm not sure if its the same thing but I recall a way to affect the display

15:40:01 [nigel]

.. within a cue.

15:40:13 [nigel]

Glenn: We can add metadata of course in TTML but there are no presentation

15:40:15 [nigel]

.. semantics in that.

15:40:32 [nigel]

Nigel: That's true, I think this use case does want to allow for some presentational semantics.

15:41:08 [nigel]

Nigel: There's another question, which is are we expecting all players to

15:41:20 [nigel]

.. honour this or is it okay for specific players aware of this functionality to do it?

15:42:07 [nigel]

.. Another question about marker is how it fits within the nested span structure

15:42:16 [nigel]

.. that's used in TTML to define ruby presentation?

15:42:39 [nigel]

.. There are loads of questions like that I suspect - I'm not raising it as a blocker,

15:42:45 [nigel]

.. just throwing it on the table as something to be aware of.

15:43:24 [nigel]

Nigel: To add more about the BBC's use cases, we definitely have this vertical vs

15:43:31 [nigel]

.. horizontal kind of issue, also square video.

15:43:44 [nigel]

.. For example think about a video posted to twitter, which was originally 16x9

15:43:51 [nigel]

.. but appears in the preview as square!

15:44:36 [nigel]

Cyril: At least for Netflix there are two aspects that this Responsive Design

15:44:45 [nigel]

.. technology could help. One of them is regarding the use of the Timed Text

15:44:55 [nigel]

.. content in the workflow, having a single document for multiple use cases

15:45:08 [nigel]

.. simplifies the workflow - one processing. The other is the final delivery to

15:45:16 [nigel]

.. the client, where receiving one document makes it easier to adjust.

15:45:31 [nigel]

.. These are two different sub-use cases. You can imagine receiving one document

15:45:38 [nigel]

.. from the studio and delivering multiple documents to the client.

15:45:51 [nigel]

.. The solutions may be simpler than presenting one document in different ways.

15:46:09 [nigel]

.. I just wanted to highlight that.

15:46:12 [nigel]

Nigel: +1

15:46:23 [nigel]

Cyril: In the lifecycle of the document there are two places where this could be useful.

15:46:39 [nigel]

Glenn: This has an echo of an earlier conversation that the group had a very

15:46:49 [nigel]

.. long time ago pertaining to language where we discussed if multiple language

15:46:58 [nigel]

.. versions should be in the same document or in separate documents.

15:47:10 [nigel]

.. I recall at the time that for distribution to rendering clients it is preferable to

15:47:21 [nigel]

.. use a single language inside a document. But we also recognised that at the

15:47:31 [nigel]

.. authoring or content management strata it might be useful to have multiple

15:47:41 [nigel]

.. languages in the same document. Frankly I don't think we've pursued many of

15:47:56 [nigel]

.. those thoughts much further since then, so this is bringing back those issues I think.

15:48:10 [nigel]

Pierre: I think a data point here is there is a difference between those things

15:48:22 [nigel]

.. that change dynamically during presentation. Language does not change,

15:48:28 [cyril]

q+

15:48:31 [nigel]

.. but responsive design is dynamic changes during the presentation like

15:48:42 [nigel]

.. rotating the phone for example. That may be a differentiating point. There is

15:48:54 [nigel]

.. also a continuum of say aspect ratios whereas language is a discrete quantity.

15:49:00 [nigel]

.. There are differences across those use cases.

15:49:17 [nigel]

Glenn: I note some users find switching language mid-presentation to be useful

15:49:31 [nigel]

.. but they are fewer in number. If I'm watching a film with Russian and English

15:49:48 [nigel]

.. subtitles I might want to see Russian as a learner, but go back to the English

15:49:57 [nigel]

.. if I don't catch it all. Probably a corner use case!

15:50:07 [nigel]

Cyril: Glenn raised an interesting point about when to merge content.

15:50:21 [nigel]

.. For Netflix we receive deliveries of different languages from different vendors

15:50:35 [nigel]

.. at different times, so probably not. But forced narratives could be done in one

15:50:48 [nigel]

.. document. Certainly multiple aspect ratio could be. It makes sense when it is

15:50:58 [nigel]

.. the same content displayed differently. When it is different content we would

15:51:09 [nigel]

.. use a different document. The question is still open for forced narrative content.

15:51:11 [nigel]

ack c

15:51:27 [nigel]

Glenn: At one point in the history of TTML we had AFXP, the authoring profile.

15:51:41 [nigel]

.. When we were on a parallel path of defining them separately we recognised that

15:51:57 [nigel]

.. for AFXP it would be appropriate to have multiple languages but for DFXP

15:52:09 [nigel]

.. for distribution it would make sense to split them up. We haven't really

15:52:20 [nigel]

.. talked about authoring vs distribution profiling before but it may come back again!

15:53:23 [nigel]

Nigel: That's a really interesting discussion, thank you.

15:53:38 [nigel]

.. If there are no more requirements to discuss, I'll move us on in the agenda.

15:53:54 [nigel]

Topic: AOB

15:54:07 [nigel]

Nigel: Just one item from me, which is next week's meeting. Are there any

15:54:23 [nigel]

.. advanced regrets? Gary has already sent his.

15:54:30 [nigel]

group: [silence]

15:54:45 [nigel]

Nigel: Okay just confirming next week's meeting will go ahead and after that,

15:55:02 [nigel]

.. our next scheduled meeting is 10th January. Is that okay for everyone?

15:55:16 [nigel]

group: [silence]

15:55:42 [nigel]

Pierre: Okay with me.

15:56:03 [nigel]

Nigel: And of course a reminder we want all requirements to be raised as issues

15:56:28 [nigel]

.. by the 20th December which is the date of next week's call. I don't think that

15:56:36 [nigel]

.. means they have to be opened by the beginning of the call next week, but it

15:56:40 [nigel]

.. would possibly be helpful.

15:56:58 [nigel]

.. The main driver for that was to allow for adequate review time over the break.

15:57:45 [nigel]

Topic: Meeting close

15:58:10 [nigel]

Nigel: Thanks everyone, meet again same time next week. Bye! [adjourns meeting]

15:58:13 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:58:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/13-tt-minutes.html nigel

16:01:34 [nigel]

s/to address to I/to address so I

16:01:58 [nigel]

s/until a later date if we need a/until a later date, if we need a

16:03:24 [nigel]

s/.. closed from the review stage/Nigel: closed from the review stage

16:04:18 [nigel]

s/.. new things in TTML, just clarifications./Cyril: new things in TTML, just clarifications.

16:07:19 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:07:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/13-tt-minutes.html nigel

16:09:22 [nigel]

scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

16:09:23 [nigel]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:09:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/12/13-tt-minutes.html nigel

17:53:57 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #tt