20:54:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:54:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-irc
20:55:07 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:55:21 <DaveBrowning> regrets+ Andrea Perego, Alasdair Gray, Erik Mannens, Thomas D'Haenens, Lars Svensson
20:55:32 <DaveBrowning> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup teleconference 28 November 2018 21:00 UTC
20:56:36 <DaveBrowning> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.11.28
20:56:50 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:56:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
20:58:23 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:59:30 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
20:59:38 <alejandra> present+
20:59:53 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
20:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:00:41 <SimonCox> SimonCox has joined #dxwgdcat
21:01:23 <riccardoAlbertoni> riccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:32 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:45 <Makx> present+
21:04:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> Present+
21:04:45 <PWinstanley> present+
21:06:09 <SimonCox> present+
21:06:29 <DaveBrowning> chair: alejandra
21:06:47 <alejandra> topic: confirming agenda
21:06:48 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.11.28
21:07:58 <DaveBrowning> scribenick: PWinstanley
21:08:12 <alejandra> topic: Approve minutes from last meeting
21:08:21 <alejandra>  https://www.w3.org/2018/11/21-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:08:30 <PWinstanley> 0 (not there)
21:08:47 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:08:50 <Makx> 0 not there
21:08:59 <PWinstanley> proposed: resolve minutes of 21 Nov 2018
21:09:07 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:09:09 <SimonCox> +1
21:09:14 <alejandra> I was present even if I am not listed at the top
21:09:14 <alejandra> +1
21:09:21 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:09:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:09:21 <PWinstanley> resolved: resolve minutes of 21 Nov 2018
21:09:29 <alejandra> topic: Outstanding actions
21:09:33 <PWinstanley> topic: open actions
21:09:38 <alejandra> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/track/actions/open
21:10:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:10:58 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni:
21:10:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> q-
21:11:09 <alejandra> q?
21:11:27 <PWinstanley> topic: public comments
21:11:44 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we have replied to everyone but we need to follow up
21:12:43 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: I would like to draft something more cogent for Clemens, but would like to get team approval before I reply
21:13:06 <PWinstanley> alejandra: draft for next week and share in a google doc.  we can discuss next week
21:13:12 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: In
21:13:33 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: I'm just wanting to ensure there is no confusion
21:13:51 <PWinstanley> action: SimonCox  to create googledoc for draft reply to Clemens
21:13:51 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:14:00 <alejandra> q?
21:14:05 <alejandra> topic: Active Topics
21:14:08 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we can have the same approach for the reply to Luca Trani
21:14:27 <PWinstanley> topic: identifiers and qualifier attribution
21:14:59 <PWinstanley> alejandra: qualified attribution has a PR that needs to be handled
21:15:09 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/DCAT-Identifiers
21:15:19 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:15:24 <PWinstanley> ... we have 3 issues related to identifiers and whatever we consiser should cover all 3
21:15:40 <PWinstanley> ... the proposal from riccardoAlbertoni  is in the link just posted
21:16:01 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:16:04 <PWinstanley> ... the idea is to use dct:identifier for the primary and use adms for the others
21:16:17 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/DCAT-Identifiers
21:16:27 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: the link to the wiki page is posted
21:16:49 <PWinstanley> ... the 3 issues are interlinked.  they should solve the issue we have
21:17:24 <alejandra> +q
21:17:26 <PWinstanley> ... I tried to organise a proposal - see the wiki page
21:18:01 <PWinstanley> dct for the primary; adms for the second; use HTTP URIs because they are actionable
21:18:15 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni:  dct for the primary; adms for the second; use HTTP URIs because they are actionable
21:19:02 <PWinstanley> ... in the section on identifier types there is no HTTP URI, so we need one
21:19:23 <alejandra> q?
21:19:50 <PWinstanley> ... we decided to stick with adms and using the schema:agency when the agency has no URI
21:20:14 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:20:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:21:06 <PWinstanley> alejandra: one comment; even though the examples are good, we need a solution that addresses identifiers for any other entity - catalogues; people (e.g. orcid) etc. so we need a solution for all identifier types.
21:21:41 <PWinstanley> ... keeping dct and adms, there might be benefit in providing some additional context that helps programmatic access
21:21:45 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:21:48 <alejandra> q?
21:23:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> i think the same solution can be applied to other kind of identifiers
21:23:15 <riccardoAlbertoni> no just datasets,
21:24:45 <PWinstanley> riccardoAlbertoni: one issue - if we have http uri, everything is in the link.  in cases of non-http identifiers schema information and resolution info is required
21:24:54 <PWinstanley> ... this follows from the discussion in the issue
21:25:48 <PWinstanley> ... e.g. in example 4 there is an identifier from the USA copyright office where a skos:notation is given, but that is a literal
21:26:25 <PWinstanley> alejandra: your last comment confirms my thoughts that catalogues can have identifiers that are not dereferencable
21:26:27 <Makx_> Makx_ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:26:40 <alejandra> q?
21:26:42 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:26:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:27:45 <alejandra> q?
21:28:10 <PWinstanley> alejandra: in catalogues that are not already in RDF there are non-dereferenceable IDs, but when they move to RDF they should turn to using dereferencable IDs
21:28:37 <alejandra> +q
21:28:58 <Makx_> q+
21:29:21 <PWinstanley> alejandra: my use case could be a catalogue of datasets that are available in other catalogues.
21:29:23 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:29:27 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:30:18 <PWinstanley> Makx_: I think this is an issue we cannot solve.  assumptions around what happens to datasets in different catalogues might be something left to profiles.
21:30:43 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:30:48 <PWinstanley> ... with EC DCAT-AP the harvesting data structure might not be able to create a coherent view on any kinds of environments
21:30:49 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:31:25 <alejandra> +q
21:31:32 <PWinstanley> Makx_: a solution to 'identifiers' might be application-specific and non-generalisable
21:31:49 <PWinstanley> ... hence profile proposal
21:32:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> let's do not have this part as normative
21:32:18 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:32:41 <Makx_> q+
21:33:10 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:33:12 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I think that the distinction between primary (http URI) identifier is dct, but the secondary might not be dereferencable, hence adms and the additional context that it allows
21:33:36 <alejandra> q?
21:33:38 <PWinstanley> ... if we assume that it is always needed for secondary IDs,....
21:33:40 <Makx_> q+
21:33:46 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:33:49 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:34:14 <alejandra> +q
21:35:41 <alejandra> this is the original use case: https://www.w3.org/TR/dcat-ucr/#ID11
21:35:43 <alejandra> ack DaveBrowning
21:35:46 <PWinstanley> Makx_: I have difficulty with use of terms primary and secondary.  these are not used in DCAT or DCAT-AP.  There is no notion of primary & secondary.  This is not appropriate for a primary standard.  we should assume dct:identifier to be resolveable
21:36:21 <Makx_> q+
21:36:54 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: Makx_  says what I think.  primary and secondary are dangerous terms when we deal with non-RDF information.  there are lots of thing 'out there' that have primary IDs that are not dereferencable because the publisher doesn't have a digital strategy
21:37:26 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:37:30 <PWinstanley> ... I need to think about profiles setting the rules
21:38:39 <PWinstanley> alejandra: I pasted Andrea's link to the primary use case, but even for data sets there are use cases of the data set being in multiple catalogues.  the dct would be for the data catalogue that you are describing, and the adms for the ones you're just referencing
21:38:42 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:39:10 <PWinstanley> Makx_: I want to make sure we take into account that in the base DCAT these are optional
21:40:32 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+  to say  I agree  on having guidelines,  and you might have a dct:identifier "https://example.org/id"^^ex:type
21:40:33 <PWinstanley> ... for the environment you have in mind you use identifiers the way you want.  in the DCAT we shouldn't be imposing, but we can suggest patterns of use
21:40:55 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we should look at the use cases and issues to decide a way forward
21:41:57 <alejandra> q?
21:41:57 <PWinstanley> ... there is a need with the applications i've been involved with which might differ from that of DCAT-AP.  We need to ensure that riccardoAlbertoni proposal covers all the issues we need to cover
21:42:04 <alejandra> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:42:04 <Zakim> riccardoAlbertoni, you wanted to say  I agree  on having guidelines,  and you might have a dct:identifier "https://example.org/id"^^ex:type
21:42:40 <Makx_> q+
21:43:16 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:44:55 <PWinstanley> Makx_: the primary/secondary needs to be separated from the issue of dereferenceable IDs
21:45:02 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
21:45:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:45:13 <PWinstanley> alejandra: my understanding was that adms:identifier could also include HTTP URI
21:45:35 <PWinstanley> Makx_: yes.  there is a notation there, you can put anything there.
21:45:43 <alejandra> q?
21:45:55 <PWinstanley> alejandra: we still need more input on this
21:46:07 <PWinstanley> ... let's continue the discussion
21:46:26 <alejandra> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pull/611
21:46:34 <SimonCox> preview here https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue79/dcat/index.html#qualified-attribution
21:46:54 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: a lot of list discussion about funder
21:47:05 <alejandra> issue on Funding source: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/66
21:47:05 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:47:25 <alejandra> and issue about qualified forms: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/79
21:47:29 <PWinstanley> ... that prompted bottoming out the qualified relations / qualified attribution pattern stuff, in the link
21:48:19 <PWinstanley> ... we already have contributor, creator, publisher ... but there are a number of roles we can use, and there are mechanics in Prov-O that might help here
21:49:04 <PWinstanley> ... the wrinkles are domain constraints which require a new property, and a new set of roles used in the examples here.
21:49:23 <PWinstanley> ... I have added an example from the ISO geospatial metadata standard
21:49:27 <alejandra> +q
21:49:44 <Makx_> q+
21:49:48 <PWinstanley> ... the role codes are in a list that covers more that the agent/entity examples
21:49:58 <PWinstanley> ... so I'll point to ISO 19115 list
21:50:00 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:51:03 <PWinstanley> alejandra: if that list of roles is not a prescription from DCAT, can people use other roles
21:51:14 <SimonCox> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dxwg/dcat-issue79/dcat/index.html#Property:hadRole
21:51:38 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: yes; in this link I have put it into the normative reference section of the doc
21:51:59 <alejandra> q?
21:52:00 <PWinstanley> ... the usage note provides the explanation
21:52:01 <alejandra> ack Makx_
21:52:15 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:52:41 <alejandra> this roles vocabulary might be also useful: https://dictionary.casrai.org/Contributor_Roles
21:52:52 <PWinstanley> Makx_: I think this is a good way of doing things, but we need to define a dcat "hadRole" prop.  we are just proliferating properties
21:53:03 <PWinstanley> ... this seems silly
21:53:29 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: it is unfortunate.  we either proliferate props or we create new namespaces
21:53:37 <alejandra> q?
21:53:57 <PWinstanley> alejandra: is there another vocab we can use
21:54:39 <PWinstanley> Makx_: looking at prov there are 505 properties - there are some in obscure namespaces, but I think SimonCox  has the right approach
21:54:41 <alejandra> ack DaveBrowning
21:54:44 <alejandra> q?
21:54:56 <PWinstanley> DaveBrowning: I agree with Makx_
21:55:18 <SimonCox> s/looking at prov there are 505 properties/looking at LOV there are 505 'role' properties/
21:55:52 <alejandra> +q
21:56:00 <PWinstanley> ... there are use cases covering qualified relations and when considering the PR I wondered how much this is a pattern we should promote, or is it simply a response to the role problem?
21:57:11 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: It is a discrete example of a general pattern and the wiki page has 2 specific high priority examples.  The recommendation might not be the place for this advice, but it is something that we need to include along with dataset -> dataset relationships
21:57:38 <PWinstanley> ... resource -> resource relationships are more elaborate/complex as they comprise everything
21:57:54 <PWinstanley> ... I thought that the attribution one is uncontentious
21:58:07 <PWinstanley> ... but we might need a DCAT funder
21:58:10 <PWinstanley> q+
21:58:19 <alejandra> ack alejandra
21:58:51 <PWinstanley> alejandra: a role , as prov indicates, is temporary and related to the situation.
21:59:44 <PWinstanley> SimonCox: in prov it is activity centric.  it puts the activities at the centre of the model, but in DCAt we put the entities (endurants) at the centre of the model
21:59:51 <alejandra> ack PWinstanley
22:00:02 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
22:00:12 <alejandra> PWinstanley: I've been raising that this requirement is much more centered around the univeristy and research arena
22:00:17 <alejandra> ... than the general case
22:00:27 <alejandra> ... so I've been suggesting that this should be left to profiles
22:00:32 <SimonCox> q+
22:01:19 <alejandra> ... I was proposing that if you put it into core DCAT, people that are not research related may feel that it is not for them
22:01:23 <alejandra> ack SimonCox
22:02:07 <alejandra> SimonCox: this doesn't come from the academic area, but to the geospatial area
22:02:31 <alejandra> ... it is worth having a general solution
22:03:06 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:03:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
22:03:28 <PWinstanley> q+
22:03:32 <alejandra> ack PWinstanley
22:04:27 <PWinstanley> reminder about promotion of 2nd PWD
22:04:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> thanks bye
22:04:44 <PWinstanley> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:04:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/11/28-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley