<ivan> scribenick: bigbluehat
<Cristina> +cristina
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: lots of wonderful people greet each other with their name and titles.
tzviya: anyone on the phone who would like to introduce themselves?
ivan: please everyone around the table please present+ yourself in IRC
tzviya: if you're not familiar with IRC, please let us know
<tzviya> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit?usp=sharing
tzviya: please RSVP for dinner on the Google Doc
ivan: also please add your appetizer and desert choice before noon today
tzviya: I'll start with an
overview to hopefully catch everyone up
... here's our current position
... the content in a Web Publication is anything the Web can
have: SVG, images, audio, HTML, etc.
... the big questions still pivot around the manifest and the
content and how those interact
... we still talk about the abstract concept of the
infoset
... and we also continue to explore metadata
... as well as the exact structure
... especially with regard to internationallization
... there is a lot of interplay between the pieces
... and we often get hung up on some of these questions
... the details of which are rather important
... but we need to be careful not to debate these at too much
length, as we have more to accomplish
... so. what we have right now is:
... the content - html, css, etc.
... the abstract infoset
... the manifest
... the webidl
... and the JSON-LD context
... and we'll be discussing how those all interact
... if there's anyone who's new to this, please ask
questions!
... k. I think we'll move on to the next agenda item
ivan: um. I think the whole
infoset debate/question should be discussed
... when we started the work, the abstraction was
valuable
... if I were comparing it to something else, it would be
numbers or numerals
... numbers are the abstract concept, and numerals are the real
tangibles...hexidecimal, etc.
... because I'm a mathematician this abstraction helps me a
lot
... and currently the whole document is written around this
construction
... but we need to determine if it would be better to focus on
the just the manifest
... which we did consider may happen when we introduced the
manifest concept
garth: I would have said the info set is really the content of the manifest
<Hadrien> +1 to removing the infoset
garth: I don't really see them as separate
ivan: so let's not forget that
your statement is not quite correct
... the manifest may be incomplete by itself
... and it will need to take information from the surrounding
HTML itself
... so it's much clearer to think about the infoset
... which may be filled from many different sources
... the infoset then is important
romain: I feel it's mostly a
communication issue
... and fear we'll drive people way with the "abstract infoset"
language
... for instance, if we talk about "publication title" it seems
obvious this is the abstract concept, and not the specific
serialization
<George> +1 to what Romain said
<laudrain> +1
romain: so I'm not sure continuing to distinguish this is helpful
<tzviya> +1 to romain
Avneesh: is there a possibility
that the infoset at the abstract level includes beyond the
manifest?
... so I guess we may need to have both of them
Rachel: what is the problem that the infoset was attempting to solve in the first place?
ivan: I think at the moment, when
we began to discuss this things went all over the place
... what are the things we need, and then we very quickly went
into how we expressed them in JSON
... so we introduced the infoset terminology, to avoid always
pushing things into JSON
<laurentlemeur> q
ivan: so we were then focused on
what the things we needed abstractly without demanding we
determine the format/expression
... do we still need that now? does it help the reader? that's
really the question for today
Rachel: I'm still struggling to understand what the infoset is actually solving for us
tzviya: we built up this list of
metadata and called it the "infoset" for abstraction
purposes
... then when we got to the JSON-LD discussion, we started
adding MUSTs and SHOULDs
... but we still have the infoset, because things like `title`
may be expressed in either HTML or JSON-LD
... and therefore the abstraction may be helpful
Rachel: the problem, then that we have is that we need to determine the location of this information
tzviya: so one idea is to focus on the origins of the metadata rather than their abstractions
duga: I'm trying to think of specs that do something like this, and CSS 2.1's box model spec takes this approach
<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/box.html
duga: there are abstract ideas
explained, and then details of their expressions
... I'm not sure, though, that our spec is that complex
... however, it still might be useful to keep some expression
of abstractions
... but for things like title, I'm not sure it needs it's own
abstraction as people understand those already
leonardr: I would agree with duga
and think ivan's history that we defined the infoset before we
serialized it is correct
... and that the abstraction may no longer be necessary
... and hopefully we can remove the abstraction
... and fill in the missing pieces that it dealt with
laudrain: so in our intro we say
that a Web Publication is "pure Web"
... so the abstractions begin to explain perhaps how a Web
Publication differs from a Web Site or a Web App
... it could be very technical and expressed in something like
JSON-LD
... but we really should explain how Web Publications
differ
gkellogg: we ran into this on the
JSON-LD specifications
... we currently discuss things in strings, arrays, and
dictionaries
... abstract enough that it can be implemented in something
like YAML, but concrete enough for it's focus on JSON
laurentlemeur: perhaps we could remove the abstract infoset, and instead focus on the WebIDL or some other expression of the properties
<Avneesh> +1 Laurent. Infoset is not so well understood
laurentlemeur: also the infoset
is scattered throughout the document, and perhaps moving it
back together into one place could be helpful
... the options for placing the title, are encoding
expressions
Hadrien: we are working with something conceptual
<laudrain> +1
Hadrien: but I do think the
infoset term is confusing
... but this concept of a Web Publication is what we're selling
to the world
... perhaps one of the issues is that keeping things at the
abstract, is that we don't divide well between what actually
ends up in the manifest and what doesn't
<laudrain> +1
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to explain that duplication is the problem
<Cristina> +1
tzviya: one concern we've had in
the past is duplication
... the requirements on the abstract infoset can be
confusing
... and using properties of a publication might be more
clarifying
ivan: k. I don't think we should
go on with this discussion to much longer
... I propose that Matt, I, and perhaps the chairs look through
the document
... and take these comments into account
... and essentially remove the term...which I realize may
frighten some here
... but I don't think having telcos on this longer makes
sense
... so we will work up a pull request to address this
PROPOSED: edit the infoset and properties section, and introduce a PR to the group
Avneesh: should we express that this is a non-operative section?
tzviya: I think that is part of the intent, but as yet it's not that concrete
<clapierre> +1
ivan: we hope to have continued discussion around the specific text once it's sent as a pull request
RESOLUTION: edit the infoset and properties section, and introduce a PR to the group
tzviya: since we have 10 extra minutes, does anyone have other questions around the interactions of the different pieces, manifest, infoset, webidl, etc?
George: are web browsers today looking for this manifest?
<laudrain> +1
ivan: no. and it remains to be seen if/when that will happen
George: so that is why we begin with an HTML document?
tzviya: correct.
laudrain: so, these are at this
point very similar to Web Apps.
... but that will be hard for publishers to make something like
that consistently and as a standard
tzviya: I believe this is issue
#271...and we've discussed this frequently
... what does it mean to be "WP-aware"?
... I don't want to derail things, but we have yet to define
what it means to open a WP
<Ralph> #271 : WP rendering in non WP aware browsers
<tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
tzviya: Franco has done an
amazing amount of work on the use cases and requirements
document
... hi Josh!
... are you on IRC?
josh: yes!
... the changes I've made were checked in on Friday
... and I've noticed some have been merged
<tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/
josh: they're good. Franco did
some great work identifying areas that weren't covered
... so the status feels like it has what it needs and just
needs some editing and then publishing
... there may, however, need to be some trimming of
requirements that I've not understood when I started editing
the document
leonardr: can you give us any
sort of general overview about the changes?
... were these clean up changes? new use cases? can you
generalize these into a summary for us?
josh: sure. there were no new use
cases.
... Franco has submitted some that tzviya and I have yet to
review
... it was about a two year old document
... so it's been tidied up a bit, and in the last 48 hours
there's some new content
... but we've also done some general clean up
... however, i think this group has bigger fish to fry than
more use cases
... I don't know how in depth tzviya wants to go
... there's one huge one, what does the UA want to do?
... and that one could take a while
... for most of these, we'd all agree easily with about 90% of
these
... but 10% of the ones related to user experience--layout,
user movement through the document, etc
... they sound simple, but they have frequently been hard to
discuss
... I don't know how much of these are practical for the first
version
tzviya: so, since I merged many
of Franco's PRs, I can give a brief overview
... he did add more use cases based on what's gone into the
spec
... he also added comments, so you'll see comments like "I did
not see these fields, help wanted"
... this is where the request of the working group to
review/contribute
... the intent was to make the UCR document match the WPUB
document's current reality
... when heather was the editor, she'd started a pattern of
adding requirements at the end of the document
... Franco's continued that with the intent of making UCR and
WPUB match
... we have a WebIDL and we have metadata, but what does that
mean if I open the web publication?
... we keep getting hung up here
... and if I want to understand that with the UCR, I open
section 2.2.1
... and it explains more about what could be done with that
metadata
... so, today, we can talk about what can be done
ivan: the most important thing is
to link the UCR with WPUB...from both sides
... right now, we have the "affordances" section
... and also with the specific metadata
... and those refer to their use cases
... and for many it's obvious, but for some it's not
... we also want to do the same from the UCR document
... we can or can not do the use case described with what's
expressed in WPUB with links back to how to make that happen in
reality
Hadrien: the document is very
useful, but I'm concerned that whenever we talk about a UCR or
when we talk about what a non-WP does or does not
... we still don't determine what the minimum of what a
WP-aware reader must do
... there are some things that are not minimum, like offlining,
that we talk about as if they were
... and I fear that by trying to solve them all at once we
solve none of them
leonardr: I think that what I'm
hearing is two different things
... I completely agree with the desire to map WPUB requirements
to the UCR document
... what I have a problem with is using the UCR document to put
requirements on UAs
... in PDF specs for example, we talk about format requirements
vs. process requirements
... we have format requirements in WPUB, but we lack process
requirements
... that seems like a very normative core to our spec which we
should add
... we're describing not only what they're expressing, but what
they expect to have happen when they do it
<garth> +1 Leonard
leonardr: the UCR, however, is not normative, and has no "Thou Shalt Do X" in it
tzviya: typically, it depends on
the spec, but usually that sort of thing does't appear in W3C
specifications
... I'd spoken with Josh about creating three or so "focal" use
cases
... one might be offlining
... it's a lot complicated
... but it seems essential
... so we write some focal use cases around that and other core
requirements
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about focal use cases
garth: how do you see the UCR? is it just augmenting the WPUB spec?
tzviya: yes. I agree with that
George: I agree with garth and
Hadrien. That we should reference and describe the things in
our UCR document
... and point to them from the WPUB spec
... but we shouldn't go from the UCR document and then figure
out how to modify the WPUB spec to match
... we should focus on implementable WPUB
ivan: I'm in agreement with a
minimum viable approach to WPUB
... but the hard part if determining what is normative and what
is non-normative
... if we put it as normative, then we MUST have (per W3C
process) several implementations for everyone one of those
MUSTs
... if it's informative, then we can just leave it there
... so, for this MVP approach, those things should be
normative, but we should be careful here
... because we have to test and verify all these things
... so if it goes into WPUB as normative, we should be very
careful
tzviya: so, coming back to the UCR, what things should we add to this MVP for WPUB?
garth: all MUSTs but some SHOULDs?
tzviya: do we even have that language in the UCR?
garth: yeah, we do have that in the UCR currently
josh: I love the MVP idea
... I've been going through the UCR document for weeks
... for instance, showing the TOC while you're anywhere within
the document
<George> The TOC must be omnipresent
PROPOSE: the table of contents must be accessible from anywhere in the publication
<scribe> scribenick: duga
<wolfgang> +1 to bigbluehat on TOC
bigbluehat: All for clarifying stuff, but really need a testing champion
tzviya: We have one! Chris
bigbluehat: Need another
... Need to figure out how to make this omnipresence
testable
<bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
ivan: we've discussed the toc
issue several times
... there are many more of these though
... like search should be across all the things in the
publication
... and figure numbering, etc, should be across all the things
in the publication
... these seem like sensible and unique-to-publications
features and capabilities
Hadrien: I don't think these are
MVP
... frankly, I only see two things as MVP
... going through the reading order, and accessing the ToC
leonardr: I was going the same
place as Hadrien.
... what ivan listed require many more discussions
... and I'd not consider them MVP
garth: I'm very hesitant to put
requirements on UAs.
... things like search, etc, seem likely to be added by UAs,
but not likely to be an MVP
ivan: searching across multiple documents is something unique to publications
garth: I'm generally agreeing.
The top two (toc access and directional progression through the
document) do state an MVP
... but then what can happen in non-WP aware UAs is also a
consideration
... well, the actual one is understanding the manifest
... so, perhaps this is a great discussion for us to determine
these things and build up from there
tzviya: josh perhaps you can think through what's MVP and what's WP-aware and add these things to the UCR
laurentlemeur: so, we can do some
of these things by going back and forward in a current
browser
... or is this a directional progression from point a to point
b to point c without back and forth?
garth: I'd say directional from resource to resource without back and forth
Avneesh: this sounds like determining the bounds of a publication
laudrain_: about WP-aware
UAs
... is it possible to speak about a UA that understands at
least JS and CSS?
... what kind of engine are we speaking about?
... what must it support?
... what if it can't do CSS or JavaScript?
... what does it mean in that moment?
... I would like to propose that we're talking about UAs that
can do JavaScript and CSS as a minimum
Avneesh: as far as I understand,
WP-aware vs. non-WP-aware, the keyword is "WP"
... not JavaScript support, etc.
... there should be points where we say "this is a WP aware UA
feature"
... the JavaScript and CSS are not part of those
requirements
laudrain_: but that is my point
by not determining whether we have these things or not, we do
not have a foundation to build upon
... I feel like we speak about engines that are too small and
lack features, such that we can't build a WP experience in a
non-WP-aware browser
<ivan> RickJ asked me to forward his greetings to everyone around
<Ralph> [I suggest that we can describe what it means to be "WP Aware"; what it means to conform to the WP specification but it is not practical to say what a non-"WP Aware" agent does with a WP. We can design WP such that non-aware clients are more likely than not to do something helpful.]
Avneesh: just one note to say that if JavaScript is provided via a non-WP-aware but uses JavaScript to create a WP like experience, than that non-WP-aware UA becomes WP-aware
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that we can't redefine UA for W3C
Hadrien: this is back to the discussion earlier, but I think going back and forth to a ToC is not an MVP feature
tzviya: I think we need to be
careful with defining User Agent
... we can define WP-aware
... but we need to be careful to determine the meaning of
UA
garth: I keep thinking Reading
System, and I'm not sure if that's a UA. I think it is, but it
has been confusing
... I think what laudrain_ and Avneesh are saying is that if
you can build the reading experience and distribute that with
your publication than you get a WP-aware UA with your
publication
... and in as much as WP's are distributed on the open web
platform, then a WP can be distributed with such a built-in
WP-aware UA
... the publication itself causes the WP to be WP-aware
<leonardr> :)
George: Hadrien I like to be able
to move through the document without going back and forth
... but I also want to be able to collapse a collection of
1000+ documents, and get to just part of that
Hadrien: yes. I want that too.
<garth> s/Hal/Dave/
George: then we're in agreement. great :)
<romain> sidenote: in HTML, "user agent" are defined as a conformance class (in 2.1.8: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#conformance-classes)
tzviya: let's come back to the MVP for WP-aware
Hadrien: there's no concept of
this now
... if you build something like this now, it would be a Web
App
... and those lack an understanding of scope
... especially with search...so I think that should not be an
MVP
... also offline-ability is hard to achieve consistently
... things like comics, etc, don't have space available
usually
... and are therefore not good MVPs
leonardr: and this brings us back to the discussion of boundedness
<garth> Perhaps: MVP == (get to TOC | move through reading order); MGP == search within bounds of WP
leonardr: do we list all
resources? do we list just some resources?
... do we allow them all to be searched? offlined? etc.
... then we'll need to determine per resource what's possible
for search, offline, etc. per resource
ivan: so we have some MVP
thoughts
... but if we stop there, then we have this minimal thing
... and a huge blob of features in the UCR
... and then UA developers pick just what she wants
... and then there are some of these affordances, however hard
they may be, should be considered fundamental to a
publication
... it perhaps is a difference between MUSTs and SHOULDs, but
they should still be expressed
wendyreid: the product creation
folks understand this
... and ivan is reading my mind
... what we probably have to do is create tiers
... MVP comes from product design
... one of the core product design concepts is iterative
improvement
... and we could benefit here from a list of iterative
improvements up from an MVP
duga: so I have an unhelpful
comment, but I'm also going to be generally agreeable
... I don't think search is an MVP because it'd be possible to
ship something that can be searched, but without expectation
that it will be searched
... if a large group says, it's hard to implement and hard to
create then is it an MVP feature?
marisa: can someone remind me
what MVP means in relation to our stack?
... when I think of our spec, then I could see many browsers to
do most of these
... what does it give our spec to define mvp?
garth: I'd think of them as just
the MUSTs
... and I'll agree with duga
... searching across the bounds of the publication is probably
not a MUST
marisa: I don't think we have to split so many hairs here
George: the minimum viable reading experience is probably something beyond what we've discussed so far as MVP
<laudrain_> +1
George: and I'm concerned that if we only spec an MVP, that it won't result in a good reading experience
Hadrien: we should focus on
MUSTs, SHOULDs, and MAYs
... there's been a lot of discussion of search and
offline
... I think those are intertwined
... once they're offline you could index them
<scribe> scribenick: duga
bigbluehat: The web is trending
offline
... service workers, new stuff
<scribe> ... New indexing stuff is coming for searching large documents
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: Currently be explored in other groups, let's talk to them
<bigbluehat> scribenick: bigbluehat
romain: I had a quick look for
UAs in the HTML spec
... and they use conformance classes
... interactive browsers do one set of things
... non-interactive ones get a slightly different list
... things like validators, etc.
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#conformance-classes
scribe: we could build up from these
Avneesh: I believe everyone
generally agrees, but perhaps MVP is a confusing term
... and in fact we're looking for the core affordances that
should be provided
tzviya: I agree
liisamk_: I don't think search is
MVP, and I don't think changing font size is necessarily
MVP
... but I do think internal and external linking experience is
MVP
<Avneesh> +1 to Romain, to also consider html classification
ivan: I was happy to hear what
bigbluehat was saying. We should use the MUST, SHOULD, and MAY,
etc.
... if it's hard today, we should put it as a SHOULD
... but we should have a clear idea of what is being built for
the future
<scribe> scribenick: bigbluehat
<Ralph> [more tests are always better; even SHOULD and MAY]
<duga> bigbluehat: You do have to write tests for SHOULD but don't need to pass them (maybe?)
<duga> ... There is an assumption we are on a desktop browser given our title with "Web"
<duga> ... Can we assume this for conformance tests?
<duga> ... If we don't assume a proper browser, we end up in a bad place
<scribe> scribenick: bigbluehat
George: is it possible for a WP aware browser, to not process JavaScript embedded affordances that it already provides
ivan: the answer is yes: that's what polyfills are designed to do
tzviya: we've got 13
minutes
... just fyi
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to propose a way forward
liisamk_: from a general mapping perspective, MVP is MUSTs, SHOULDs are next level up, and MAY is super awesome product
tzviya: so. I'm going to propose
that josh and franco with the UCR and affordances, etc, go
through the existing WPUB document
... and go through the MUSTs
<liisamk_> must = minimal, should = desirable, may = optimal
tzviya: and next time we meet we
look at the MVP/MUSTs
... and start listing them in some section of the document
<liisamk_> or may = sexy
tzviya: and then we'll see if
that's something we can live with
... does that sound like a good plan?
ivan: I would also welcome if
someone else took on editorial jobs related to this minimal
stuff
... so that we have a text that might actually replace the
current section we have on affordances, etc.
... matt will have quite a lot of work already to deal with our
infoset choices
... so I think it's unfair to expect matt to do this also
... so help wanted!
<scribe> scribenick: duga
gpellegrino1: Reply to George: JS
should check if browser is WP aware
... like JQuery does
... Allows polyfill of specific features
George: That means each
affordance can be uniquely identified
... Ran into this with footnotes, with JS footnotes vs RS
finding them
Hadrien: We have been talking
about MVP, but in terms of JS don't want to test if WP
aware
... Instead want to test for features
... Transition from non-WP aware to WP aware is also
important
... We haven't discussed it but there is a UX issue
tzviya: Josh and Franco to find
the MUSTs for MVP
... in the future we will do the same with SHOULD
... Need volunteers and an editor for Affordances section
garth: Wanting to define a
minimal list of musts
... currently we have 2 and third, is that enough?
tzviya: No
... Break!
marisa: Does WebIDL have a way to query if a specific affordance is available?
Ivan: No
<scribe> scribenick: duga
tzviya: Reminder about dinner stuff
garth: Google covering dinner
tzviya: Reading from the agenda
dauwhe: Need to put some effort into describing this in an operational way
<dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/194#issuecomment-428662128
dauwhe: Say I am in a WP context
and click a link to another WP?
... what happens then?
... How do we discard a manifest?
... Easy to talk about boundaries are, but what do they
mean?
leonardr: The concept I agree
with
... Thinking about boundaries from UX perspective
... eg my goal is to search this publication - what is a WP to
accomplish that
... Look at use cases as they relate to boundaries
bigbluehat: Dave mentioned UX. We
talked about constraints on UAs
... Biggest one we have to consider is what happens when you
cross the boundary
... There is some precedent in the web, eg web manifest
... inverse is iFrames, you pull things into your scope
... third is target:blank which insists you leave the
publication
... Anything out of scope takes you to a browser context
Hadrien: Glad to hear this
example, we had inter document linking discussions at
epub
... Nice to finally be able to link between pubs
... Earlier we didn't have the right terminology to discuss the
boundaries
... No longer true. The scope is now expressed.
... Agree we have established patterns for what happens
... no need to reinvent the wheel
... When you are no longer in the bounds of the pub, the
affordances are no longer available
tzviya: We seem to be
agreeing
... Goal is to address issue 205
... Maybe we are done with this?
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to make sure we define rules and UX separately
tzviya: maybe we just need to be more specific about what happens and the UX for when we leave the pub
garth: Searching - maybe that is
a should, clearly you need bounds for that
... Are we comfortable saying we are now done?
leonardr: Concerned we are
talking about 2 different things regarding bounds
... 1 is what the UA understands are the bounds (eg for
search)
... Seems clear why we need that
... Issues around exiting and entering is a completely
different issue
... Nothing to do with the actual bounds
... Just a UX issue, which is still important
... Look at both, but do not combine
romain: Security issues - what
happens when you move between origins
... Origin historically undefined in epub world
... Pubs can share local storage, etc
... Bounds is an opportunity for us to tackle this issue
... Do you have to examine every resource to determine
origins
... ?
<Ralph> 205 - We need a section of the document that explicitly defines the bounds of a publication
ivan: Issue of bounds depends on
what we discussed before the break
... May be ok to say search is only for things in the resource
lists
... but may not be true for offlining
Hadrien: But those are the same bounds?
ivan: But do we need to list eg CSS
dauwhe: case 194 talks about
links to items in multiple pubs?
... Do you need to define the various combinations of
navigation actions?
bigbluehat: How ready are we to
decide things like experiential actions like
... clicking on something outside of bounds is different than
inside?
... Are we at a place to deal with that now?
liisamk: Yes, we are!
... If you are in the bounds you should know that
... There should be some experiential way of knowing I am
navigating to something I "own" to something I don't
dauwhe: Important web principal - how can a user trust their content (or not)?
<bigbluehat> +1 to experience mapping to user trust
dauwhe: web app manifest has a lot on this, about indicating to user they are in some special mode
bigbluehat: There was a mention
about web apps be similar but non standard
... There is no consistency promise
... Web pubs should have more trust - clear you are in the
pub
... Adding that expression of trust is valuable to
publishing
tzviya: We are revisiting why we
need boundaries
... But we have already discussed that
... Need for security, offlining, wayfinding, etc
... Need to focus on how not why, people!
laudrain_: User trust is fine,
but also need to consider author trust
... Something has been "published"
... Bounds are important to verify that
Hadrien: In the case of web apps,
it is similar to how epub RS often work
... You have a context, when you go out of it, may open a
browser or web view
... so you are now in a different UX context
... Compared to web once I have switched, I don't have the same
expectation of how I get back
... Web apps often don't really support back
... From a UX standpoint fairly common way of handling
bounds
leonardr: Take a use case, say
offlining
... Use as an example to figure out what we need
... Have default reading, resource list, etc
... [reading from spec]
... The bounds are defined as the union of resource list and
default reading order
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to suggest we write some UA reqs based on these bounds :)
bigbluehat: Before we go
there
... We have avoided UA requirement so far
... Should we define those now?
... Things like leaving the pub, etc
... Should we just file issues and make Josh do them?
tzviya: Yes
dauwhe: Can we define expectations?
<ivan> guests+ Tess_O'Connor
dauwhe: Eg if you do search,
these are the ones you should search
... Those can be tested
... Have an operational definition instead of saying "this is a
boundary"
... Breaking the back button is really bad
Hadrien: I was just pointing out how web apps work
dauwhe: I would be unhappy with pubs that did that
josh: Is it possible you have something in bounds that is not in the reading order?
chorus_of_voices: yes
<tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#resource-list
josh: Does that mean what Leonard says was wrong?
ivan: No, you had it wrong, it is
the union
... I am fine putting this into a resolution
... and then we can close an issue
... it puts responsibility in the authors that if they expect
eg offline to work
... then they better put the CSS in the resources
... Which is fine, but we need to decide
... I propose we do it now!
garth: Agree
... Better flesh out your resources
leonardr: I support that
... The things we need to iterate on are various things we have
discussed
tzviya: Proposal: leave language as is, change from a note to text, close the issue
leonardr: Change the language to "this defines the bounds of the publication"
dauwhe: What happens if you have a resource that links to CSS outside the bounds
ivan: What happens today if you
have something in the cache that refers to an external
file?
... That is totes the same
dauwhe: I am ok with not required
tzviya: Objections?
romain: Need to understand what happens when there are multiple origins
ivan: Need extra constraints on resources
Hadrien: If we decide defining bounds is more convenient as one resource, then [something]
leonardr: You are viewing the
bounds wrong
... The fact that you can reference external CSS is
irrelevant
... Bounds are what the list says, not where they are
... How we deal with bounds is another question
bigbluehat: There is some prior
art that is painful
... eg app manifest
... which is being replaced by service workers
... No master list, it just puts referenced things in the
cache
... No need for boundaries
... Further constrains a service worker
<scribe> scribenick: bigbluehat
duga: these lists of resources
are all great
... once upon a time there was a thing called epub
... we had a manifest
... then we had a package
... which also had a list of files within the zip format
... and the only thing that we got from the manifest
... was errors
... when you're not considering packaging, manifest sound
great
... but when you get to packing, you probably will hate the
manifest
tzviya: do you want these to be the same in WPUB and EPUB4?
duga: probably not
<scribe> scribenick: duga
garth: A wp doesn't need to be
packaged
... but we could make a rule that the list is expunged by the
time we package
... I thought we were sort of close to agreeing that the bounds
was the union
leonardr: Didn't we agree
... ?
liisamk: We did have call for
objections
... I disagree with duga, I think it was very useful to have a
list of resources
... and am not opposed to it in WP
dauwhe: Does the current web
packaging spec have features that support WP??
... Is there something there that we should pay attention
to?
<tzviya> dauwhe++
dauwhe: Having some alignment
with web packaging would be a lovely alignment
... Hope we can coordinate with them
<romain> +1
<tzviya> The union of the resource list and default reading order represents the definitive list of resources that belong to the Web Publication. All other resources are external to the Web Publication.
<ivan> +1
tzviya: Can we agree with the statement in the spec now [reading from spec]?
<tzviya> The union of the resource list and default reading order represents the definitive list of resources that belong to the Web Publication. All other resources are external to the Web Publication.
tzviya: Do we agree?
<Avneesh> +1
<laudrain_> +1
<gpellegrino> +1
<wolfgang> +1
ivan: Do we close 205 with this?
tzviya: Yes?
<dauwhe> +1 in that this statement is necessary, but not sufficient. There is more work to be done with boundaries and user experiences
<wendyreid> +1
RESOLUTION: The union of the resource list and default reading order represents the definitive list of resources that belong to the Web Publication. All other resources are external to the Web Publication & close #205
tzviya: Objections?
<wendyreid> also +1 dauwhe
<leonardr> +q
bigbluehat: Not -1
<leonardr> +1
bigbluehat: Don't want to be the
only negative one
... also discussed a CG for exploring this
... and kind of concerned about this
... Opposed because it is underexplored, has security
ramifications, etc
... We are pushing ahead due to time, but we need an outlet to
properly vet these things
<romain> +1 to what @bigbluehat said
wendyreid: Dave said something like that in his +1
<Hadrien> +1
ivan: If new problems come up, it
is in our right to reopen
... but don't want to keep issues open forever
<laurentlemeur> +1
<josh> +1
<garth> +1
ivan: at this moment uncertainty is bad
tzviya: Now proposing the PCG!
<laurentlemeur> +1 to Ivan. We have to study implication of this definition of boundaries but can use it as a ground.
tzviya: lunch time!
<ivan> scribejs, set danbri Dan Brickley
<ivan> scribejs, set addison Addison Philips
<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2018/10/22/proposed-group-publishing-community-group/
<scribe> scribenick: leonardr
<garth> scribenick leonardr
<ivan> scribejs, set r12a Richard Ishida
<ivan> guests+ danbri, r12a, addison
tzviya: quick introductions
tzviya some technical issues + please use mike
<tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/wpub/#language-and-dir
tzviya three github issues
ivan: long running discussion
that we've had with you folks in the past, about the need to
represent
... the language of content as well as multi-lingual
... schema.org also needs to be able to understand and address
whatever "standard" is used
... base direction of a publication is not well defined in
schema.org
... (page) progression direction also needs to be
reflected/described
... in the cse of the WP, the UA needs to know which is
"next"
addison: this also applies to J
books for vertical orders
... its not the same thing as base direction (for bidi)
ivan: we do have them separately
<tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/labels/topic%3Ainternationalization
liisamk: are we also going to address mixed direction in a block? specifically in JSON, such as the title
ivan: lets start with the
trandition lang and dir issues
... what we did there is to have two separate items (lang +
dir)
... but there is gossip to change that
addison: what is the context, as
there may be the case.
... metadata about the publication, yes?
ivan: we don't do anything with
the content (that' HTML). this is indeed abotu metadata
... we set a global language via existing schema.org
... inLanguage?
tzviya: clearing up some issues
here...
... we are talking about specifc tags in JSON-LD and possibly
schema.org, which danbri may have input into
... we are particularly talking about how to express the
language and/or direction of some tags. For example, the title
or author of a document.
addison: the problem that you are
encountering is similar to those of other groups.
... if we have a piece of natural lang text, we need to be able
to apply language and the base dir of that text.
<r12a> here is our base reference: https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
addison: (sometimes you may not
need one or the other, but you want to be able to set them when
important)
... there are presentation cases where you need to know the
proper things to do (eg. font selection)
... we recommend that each tag have its own set of values for
this. Our string-meta doc tries to address this
... we agree that you need to transport both
ivan: in the current draft, we
have a global setting, but we also want to enable overridding
for specific items.
... inLanguage from schema.org but they don't have an
"inDirection" tag, so we added our own
... but this is an issue because we had to introduce our own.
However, there is a bigger issue
... the individual override. Using @value language in
JSON-LD
... but we don't believe that schema.org understand this
... (see gkellogg who wrote that spec)
... the online tool for schema.org wasn't happy about it
... but direction is even more complicated, because JSON-LD
doesn't have this natively.
gkellogg: because JSON-LD is just
RDF, then the language is coming from base. but RDF has no
direction concept, tehre is nothing to come from
... but if a future RDF had it, then JSON-LD would get it. (but
not in the plans right now)
<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/#script_subtag
ivan: going back a bit, the gossip says that for this restrictive usage we could "get away" with just the Lang tag.
<bigbluehat> ack q?
r12a: if there is no other way to
do it, then you could assume direction from language tag, if
you had script info as well.
... or could reliably guess. Hebrew, for example, might include
info about the cdirection
script - ISO 15927
addison: inferencing the direction is not the same as actually having one
<danbri> are there cases where a single script could be written several ways (eg. maybe japanese sometimes vertical etc?)
addison: esp if you are counting
on all downstream processing to do the same (right?)
thing
... the challenge is to think of cases where the title is in a
lang but non-standard direction
tzviya: I can give you lots of examples!
addison: you can imagine a doc where infering direction would cause things in the wrong direction.
ivan: the reason why I would like to avoid the direction tag is that it gets rid of a headache.
r12a: our preference is to have a
separate label for each string.
... but there could be any number of strings and each one needs
the same treatment
gkellogg: using HTML literals as string values?
ivan: we considered by punted on that for other reasons
gkellogg: there is another level of indirection also possible but also mnot used commonly
ivan: setting the lang for each
literal is not a problem, we know how to do that from JSON-LD
perspective
... but also having the direction is the problem
addison: we get that its a
problem but you need that info if that the dstring is ever
going to be displayed
... otherwise, things may not actually line up properly in
display. This is avoidable.
... we do, however, consider this as a major flaw/limitation in
RDF/JSON/JSON=LD
ivan: yes, but we are at the end
of the stick
... the only thing we can set today in JSON-LD is lang
danbri: there are several
dynamics happening here...
... while I am happy to put stuff into schema.org, it may not
be the right place
... this group seems to be doing application modelling as well
and I can help you do that too
... let's not confuse the two
ivan: I don't see a proper solution here
danbri: cleanup issues in early 2000's lead to the current state and we're not going back there
tzviya: I like getting people angry
Hadrien: what we have right now
is similar to your proposal but it woudln't be undestandable by
generic processors
... and that is a big part of our concern. we don't necessarily
want to go out on our own, we'd rather use general stuff
... esp. if it causes failures by general processors
bigbluehat: concerning the
suggestion of using HTML syntax for the strings, ivan is not a
fan.
... I'd like to understand why we don't want to go down that
path.
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discourage notion of a "Schema.org processor". There are applications (and families of application that share infrastructure) which use Schema.org terms and
<duga> +1 to bigbluehat
danbri: there is no such thing as a "schema.org processor". there are search engines, but that's not a general case
ivan: can we take the position that we can use any valid JSON-LD and have it handled?
danbri: no, not aware of a full
JSON-LD processor in use today for schema.org
... there are specific use cases where specific needs of
JSON-LD are used (or not).
... at Google, we picked a specific subset of things and Bing
probably as well
ivan: what we have tried to do so far is to ensure that what we want to do is understood by an existing tool and if not...
Hadrien: we have discussed the
HTML route many times, we are concerned that many UAs that
would ingest these literals would not know what to do with the
HTML anyway
... it would convert it down to a string and would end up
dropping the useful bits
laurentlemeur: there is also an
issues if improper elements are used
... adding HTML elements de-simplifies JSON
r12a: there are three levels -
global, per element, inter-element
... HTML already knows how to do that and the Unicode controls
aren't well supported by browsers
ivan: we don't use HTML for any strings
<discussion about some Ruby specifics>
addison: Ruby shouldn't be need
for presentation of metadata but would be useful for
sorting
... yes, if you use HTML, you need to then have it parsed and
understood.
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask which strings we're needing this for
bigbluehat: it might be helpful which strings are thinking about here. What other data could be applied here?
addison: author, publisher, title
tzviya: let's look at the issues
ivan: they are all around the same issues
tzviya: proposal 1: going to HTML. (but that has been nixed by a few people)
ivan: do we think our UA/RS folks are willing to do deal with the HTML?
tzviya: would UAs rather see it as HTML or JSON/JSON-LD? what are common flows?
addison: they have fields with the values and not HTML
you don't get anything for free from JSON-LD but it still works with those processors
<danbri> re Google SDTT, consider an example like https://gist.github.com/danbri/010ee9afeb48806c857775d062caf3ed... it is OK by the Google tester but effectively useless. SDTT is good for testing to see if specific data examples match the information needs of specific google tools, and it also catches some low-level errors.
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to propose a narrower sub-set of HTML focused on language expression
bigbluehat: social web working
group uses the HTML representation (or a subset thereof)
... we should probably also set the set of valid values
<Ralph> Leonard: Adobe's XDM handles some of these issues
leonardr: we follow script-meta recommendations
danbri: there seems to be nothing in between HTML and "plain text".
ivan: we are not in the position
to make a new RDF datatype
... we could define a subset of HTML but that would need to be
validated during workflows
bigbluehat: in practice, *lots*
of folks had the same issue that HTML is too big and scary and
don't expect folks to use it
... and ended up using a subset of HTML
tzviya: we need something robust but not as scary as HTML
garth: it having our special stuff ignored a bad thing?
tzviya: why can't we change JSON-LD?
bigbluehat: because JSON-LD is
modelled on RDF which we can't change
... why is violating JSON-LD OK?
ivan: because implementors could
just ignore the validation errors
... the reason for JSON-LD was so that the metadata would be
understood by search engines and other schema.org aware
systems. So why violate it?
bigbluehat: but maybe Google or bing will index it anyway
<Ralph> [ JSON punted on the lang/dir issue. RDF tried to punt on it as well, expecting the underlying serialization to handle it. When the first serialization was XML then the RDF punt nearly worked. An underlying serialization in HTML handles lang/dir as well as (potentially) markup for SVG, MathML, ... ]
r12a: HTML was one option. JSON-LD was another. but there is another possibility
gkellogg: the three options I heard. Inside a tag, you have to use HTML (or the like). For the entire tag, use a script as part of the language tag (as that is valid RDF). Or use a fully structured object with lang and direction, which is also valid JSON-LD/RDF
ivan: this means moving away from "simple literals"
bigbluehat: the situation of feeding search engines, I've tested things and Google seems to handle the HTML values in JSON-LD - for some definition of "handle"
the alternative, the complex objects, will not index by the search engine
gkellogg: if there was a standard "indirect object" that would help
liisamk: doesn't ONIX use HTML for thje strings?
tzviya: it's XML not HTML. (ONIX is a common vocab for books)
Matthias_Kovatsch: what are the cases where you can't determine the direction from the lang?
<danbri> re JSON-LD, could we use a complex "datatype" to carry lang+direction together? (ugly and horrible and wrong...)
<garth> ONIX: https://www.editeur.org/83/Overview/
addison: writing mode is different. examples like azerbejan can go in both latin or arabic
<addison> <p lang=ar>W3C TPAC 2018</p>
ivan: what are the real practical cases that we would have in publishing if we *only* used the lang tag?
r12a: you would have to ensure a script tag!
addison: the Unicode/ICU approach also has some options (???)
danbri: re JSON-LD, could we use a complex "datatype" to carry lang+direction together? (ugly and horrible and wrong...)
<Ralph> LeonardR: when you mention Unicode, you're not referring to the deprecated substring stuff, are you?
<Ralph> Addison: I'm referring to BCP47
<Ralph> ... separately, Unicode bidi control characters that could be used in plain strings outside of markup
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask where we go from here?
<Ralph> ... modern changes on isolating controls are not yet widely in use, though that's what you'd really want to recommend
<danbri> FWIW Google's JSON-LD parser doesn't complain if it sees "name": "Stan <em>Dinkley</em>", etc., but nothing in Schema.org says when/whether to treat '<' as markup vs part of the content. Most of our *applications* would strip or otherwise sanitize it. But that is an application-level decision.
<Ralph> RichardIshida: we really need isolation control to make bidi work
tzviya: what happens next?
... danbri suggested evaluating underused attrs like "role"
<tzviya> http://blog.schema.org/2014/06/introducing-role.html
danbri: we tried that, but it
wasn't a success
... nobody likes it
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to mention the hard case is the mixed language title
bigbluehat: I still feel the only way to handle this, esp with mixed language, is to use (a subset of) HTML
<danbri> here's a real world json-ld schema.org mixed language name/title from MusicBrainz, https://search.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool?url=https://musicbrainz.org/work/e664139f-6fb5-4aaf-91f1-3c109753c7ea#url=https%3A%2F%2Fmusicbrainz.org%2Fwork%2Fe664139f-6fb5-4aaf-91f1-3c109753c7ea
laurentlemeur: I want to go the
exact opposite way, to not use HTML but standard data
elements
... but that does not solve mixed language
<danbri> (currently {"name":"(Si Si) Je Suis un Rock Star")
<Ralph> Leonard: do we actually know what was indexed (by Google) in Benjamin's experiments?
<glazou> hehe
<Ralph> bigbluehat: removing the tags and keeping only the content gives the wrong result
r12a: if you did it using the HTML, you would have to do it all the time for each string
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to comment on the 'how google does it' bit
danbri: I would move away from
"how Google indexes things", but instead consider rthat stuff
comes in and then out as a "triple"
... and then sent downstream where some processors may strip
out bit and others may not
ivan: the perfect is enemy of
good
... so what is the 80/20 cut on this one?
<r12a> example of strings that need base direction: في HMTL5 يتم تحقيق ذلك بإضافة العنصر المضمن bdi.
ivan: are we willing to sacrifice some of these requirements (eg. mixed language) in favor of supporting the others more simply?
david_clarke: an example in titles such as my text book
ivan: this is where Unicode directionality might help
r12a: you are talking about a
different issue. applying bidi inside a string with the Unicode
dir chars is fine. *but* that doesn't address the base
direction
... my example earlier shows up the problem with missing base
dir
addison: when passing data
around, when you need the data, you need it! and once computed,
you want it understood the same way in all cases
... the options discussed here are all valid ones but you need
to decide which pain points you are willing accept
marisa: another example in arabic...numerals. you switch the directions with numerals
ivan: there is no ideal solution. "which finger should I bite?"
bigbluehat I have a starting point from PDF for that that we use for rich text string...
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to propose that we write a simple HTML subset for strings in JSON-LD
bigbluehat: propose that we write a simple HTML subset for strings in JSON-LD
danbri: we'd use that if you come
up with it!
... alternatively, would you like us to add an inDirection
property in schema.org to help move things along?
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask if you'd like a tentative/experimental (i.e. "pending" review) inDirection property in schema.org to help move things along? Is there a definition to use?
<r12a> s/making proposals/writing down proposals/
ivan: will make sure to contact danbri with a formal propsal
<ivan> proposed: we propose for schema.org to add an inDirection term alongside inLanguage, with value of "rtl", "ltr", "auto"
DanielWeck: if we were to carry the HTML in the string liternal, then the RS needs to process that? How would you know that it is HTML?
ivan: you would know that from
the RDF/JSON-LD
... calling for objections for my proposal?
<garth> Crickets
RESOLUTION: we propose for schema.org to add an inDirection term alongside inLanguage, with value of "rtl", "ltr", "auto"
<Ralph> [acknowledging that this resolution doesn't address multiple-direction literals]
DanielWeck: this is not just RS, but authoring, etc. all have to deal with whatever we proposed
<danbri> thanks, noted in https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2086
<DanielWeck> (entities, whitespace normalization, etc.) the HTML processing model
<Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask that we also record the sub-set of HTML proposal
ivan: if we do a pure HTML datatype, then anything could be allowed
bigbluehat: which is why I want a specialized version
duga: there is a history here with EPUB that the Japanese couldn't represent some titles - let's not do that again
<Ralph> [is it plausible to sanitize the HTML before putting it through a full HTML parser? Likely reading systems don't want to have to write a separate limited HTML parser?]
tzviya: we have a proposal to work up a small subset of HTML that could be used
<Ralph> Leonard: if someone is proposing to pursue a formal proposal, we should let them do it
<Ralph> Benjamin: I'm writing it now
<ivan> proposed: allow literals (title, publisher, creators) to be expressible using an HTML datatype, restricting the HTML to a subset
<bigbluehat> PROPOSED: to create a sub-set of HTML--narrowed to multiple language tags--to use within all text strings used within the infoset/manifest
PROPOSED: to create a sub-set of HTML--narrowed to multiple language tags--to use within (a set of TBD) strings within the infoset/manifest
tzviya: any objections?
ivan: no one is saying that you *must* use the HTML. just that it would (possibly) be an option
addison: please make sure to
include us in those discussions
... we want solutions for the web at large
<danbri> FWIW I asked in #tpac-chat, tantek noted WICG draft around sanitization, https://github.com/WICG/purification
tzviya: break time!@
... thanks to all our guests.
George: we also have a11y items outstanding as well. don't forget about them.
<Rachel> scribnick: Rachel
<ivan> scribenick: Rachel
<ivan> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Schema.org-issues
Ivan: we've started with some
problems in which we started to define our own context and
terms.
... in publishing the order of authors, publishers, translator
etc is deadly serious
... currently, these terms are not ordered
... we put these in an ordered list to meet our needs - is this
an acceptable solution for schema.org
danbri: lists have always been a
pain in rdf... schema.org made an item list construction. 6
months ago we went through an exercise with json-ld. the end
result was prettier and there was consensus that the result was
prettier.
... that's as far as we got
... we would introduce new ones, not turn the current ones into
lists
ivan: so for the time being its fine to keep it as it is now
danbri: the most obvious one is recipe instructions
ivan: it will be a timing issue
<danbri> re lists in schema.org, see https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/1910
ivan: we will skip over language setting
tzviya: accessibility issues go
back to the first idpf proposals for tags that sit in a
non-normative document about certification metadata
... we have outlined what we want
... it picks up conformance rules from dublincore
... certified-by, certified-credential, certified-report
danbri: my concern would be overlap
<garth> https://idpf.github.io/epub-vocabs/package/a11y/#sec-certifierCredential
danbri: This might overlap with the credential work (certifier)
tzviya: we didn't add accessibility to purposefully keep it generic
wendyreid: certified-by points to
the org, which is a recognized org
... for accessibility
leonardr: it should be tied to accessibility
danbri: our preference is to say
it's a relationship between two things
... certified credential carries some of that work
gpellegrino: we also need a URL, because it is specific to that publication
<Ralph> Ralph: certification should be a URL so that you can look up properties of the certifier; e.g. org, specifics about the certification
leonardr: if the document is certified to 2 purposes but you only have one set of metadata how do you address that
tzviya: have the field repeat
danbri: what is the purpose
tzviya: to clarify who is saying that something is accessible and what they are using to say it
danbri: if you have multiple
things being investigated, you don't know which report is
which
... you might need to hack something
<Ralph> [we should also look for overlap with Verifiable Claims work]
<danbri> EOCred work --- https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/
<Ralph> Rachel: re: purpose -- in education this comes up repeatedly; we have two situations -- an actual certification program run by Benetech
<Ralph> ... Benetech will certify that a publisher is producing accessibly ebooks
<Ralph> ... and many campuses are requiring publishers to self-certify; accepting responsibility for fixing problems
danbri: it's about each
particular published thing
... rather than the publisher
... we have this corner of schema.org where we can throw things
and see if they work
<danbri> have a look at this: http://pending.eocred-1779.appspot.com/EducationalOccupationalCredential
tzviya: there is some potential
overlap with verifiable claims and open badges
... if a publisher is saying "I assert this is accessible" how
do we verify this?
ivan: languages - in json-ld there is something easier to use, called language mapping, from an authoring point of view...???
<Ralph> [Ivan is now discussing https://github.com/w3c/wpub/wiki/Schema.org-issues#language-indexing Language indexing ]
Hadrien: you need to be able to process the context
danbri: I'm not aware of anyone in the search industry doing complex processing
Ivan: can you find out if this is planned? is it a good idea to use this index?
Hadrien: are there plans to support json?
danbri: that would be company by company
bigbluehat: [starts troubleshooting for the json working group even though he has his own meeting]
ivan: we need something close to the link role
<Ralph> LinkRole
ivan: even though it's
experimental
... what we started to do is that we defined our own type
... it is almost the same except linkrole cannot accept mime
types
... I raised an issue about this on schema.org
danbri: encoding format shouldn't be used on the link role
ivan: the real question is encoding format
danbri: linkrole is still
pending?
... I need to check on the mechanics...
ivan: It would be better for us
to rely on schema.org vocabulary than inventing our own
here
... audio
<Ralph> [audio] duration alues
ivan: the html equivalent is more relevant than schema.org
wendyreid: duration in schema refers more to a CV - as in I was in a job from jan 2017 to feb 2018
<danbri> see lower section of https://schema.org/Duration for properties whose value is datatyped schema.org/Duration, which does lean towards 8601
ivan: we should allow for the iso standard to be used
<Ralph> [HTML 5.3] Durations
wendyreid: we would like to extend the iso standard to be used
<danbri> whereas https://schema.org/temporalCoverage covers date ranges, and we had some issue about openended ranges
<danbri> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2086
<danbri> next step is to follow up https://pending.schema.org/duration and clarify whether it is a temporal quantity, versus a period (temporalCoverage); could be clarified
ivan: general question - there is
a large vocabulary for publications in schema.org, but new
types of publications are unavoidable
... what steps should we take to add new types
<Ralph> mechanisms for new publication types?
danbri: we generally push to wikidata to do the work
ivan: proceedings is a good example
<danbri> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1143604
danbri: you can use wikidata directly
ivan: so in my json-ld, I would use Q1143604 instead of Proceedings?
danbri: yes
ivan: [suggests workaround Rachel doesn't understand]
danbri: that too
<danbri> workaround is "Proceedings" is a term in the surface syntax defined by a json-ld context, but maps to Q1234-style URLs
<Ralph> scribenick: Ralph
Wendy: looking for things that could be closed ("propose closing")
<wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/261
Wendy: #261: use of "cover image"
Ivan: 'cover' is a structural property in the manifest
Leonard: cover is optional?
Ivan: yes
Wendy: any objection to closing this?
[none expressed]
Garth: we have to update the editor's draft now to close it
Ivan: yes; that's the mechanics
RESOLUTION: close #261
Wendy: consider #54
<tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/54
Wendy: "Obtaining language from
http headers"
... the issue is whether http headers can be fallback for
determining the language of a publication
Tzviya: this is no longer relevant; it's from a long time ago
Rachel: let's add a comment saying this
Ivan: I'll clean the minutes then refer to them in a close comment
Wendy: #270
... Conformance criterion for UA
Ivan: we should add a reference
to this morning's discussion
... and add a comment that it will be followed-up later
Wendy: not proposing to close
this yet
... #291
<Rachel> https://github.com/w3c/wpub/issues/291
Wendy: Do we need a more detailed
definition for the HTML TOC format?
... based on #285
Ivan: and we now have pagelist
Garth: there's a reference to a transcript of a meeting, though it didn't resolve the issue
Ivan: the question is whether we
want to define a structure in HTML for TOC
... at the moment the spec doesn't say anything
... we have two extremes: the EPUB model and no restriction
(whatever you can express as HTML)
... the discussion was that whatever we define should be
machine processable; there should be a clear algorithm for
extracting the TOC from the HTML
... the current spec stops at describing an ARIA tag
... it's relatively clear that an algorithm can be defined for
what's in EPUB, or even for something more liberal
... on the other hand, nobody so far has come up with an
algorithm to get a reasonable TOC from arbitrary HTML
... if you think something more liberal should be permitted,
provide an algorithm
Juan: I've been thinking about an
algorithm
... my thinking is to require UL/OL with LI and then require
SPAN
... I've been looking at the Category content model and have an
idea about explicit/implicit P
... I think there's text there about runs of phrasing content
that could be used to define a generic algorithm
... I have a tree-walker algorithm that is very
preliminary
... would welcome comments
Tzviya: sounds interesting; I'd love to see it
Laurent: we have to permit
round-tripability
... we must be careful
Liisa: what problem are we trying
to solve?
... replacing the nav doc in some way that doesn't sound like
addressing missing formatting in that doc
... the inline TOC and the navigation are not a map of each
other
... often we include more in the nav that we include in the
inline TOC
... we've been thinking that we might not create an inline TOC
where the printed version didn't have one
... as a content item
... a renderable TOC is often very heavily designed and that
doesn't get put in the nav
... as we're thinking about this, keep the option that they can
be separate
Tzviya: nothing prevents you from
creating an inline TOC
... in my ideal world they would be the same thing
Liisa: I'd like to have the
machine-readable with the option to have the pretty one
... I don't necessarily want the pretty TOC to be the
machine-readable TOC
Ivan: so you'll have two structures?
Liisa: yes
Ivan: that's still doable; you just have to identify via ARIA which one is the machine-readable one
Wendy: the pretty one is the one users look at; as a RS, I'd love to offer all the information that's there
Liisa: two separate problems: the amount of information and the prettyfying of that
Ivan: can you write down (later)
the algorithm and the corresponding HTML structure?
... if this can be written, and if it includes the usual
structure in EPUB 3 and other possibilities, that's fine
Juan: I can do that
Luc: this is important both for TOC and for accessibility issues with TOC
Juan: I'm thinking that there's
one container, a DIV, and a text node
... that text node becomes an H1
... I get lost with mixing H2, H3, ...
... I saw a proposal for something that takes the level from
the nesting
... I don't yet know how to address this
Tziya: others here might help in understanding the outline algorithm
Rachel: when we present a TOC in
a textbook we generally have two of them: a detailed one and a
brief one
... in our ebooks we have a third for navigation
... we present the nav TOC in the reader navigation and within
that there are links to the brief and full TOC
... the full TOC has additional links that are not in the
nav
<Bobbytung> Hidden=“hidden”
Rachel: we put these in the full TOC because students look for them while paging through a book
Benjamin: there are use cases for
several TOC presentations
... is it a requirement that the machine version be extractable
from the human-readable one?
... perhaps it's an imagemap
<duga> a+
Benjamin: are we trying really hard to make this possible without saying "the machine SHOULD ..."?
Leonard: similar question; I'm
not sure why we need a machine readable TOC in WP
... I understand the need for a human-presentable one
... giving that reading order and resources are both handled
elsewhere, why does a UA need in addition another TOC?
Tzviya: we've answered this over the course of several meetings
Brady: briefly, for
accessibility
... George can explain in more detail
Liisa: were we planning to be
able to have the machine readable have extensible
formatting?
... embedding styling, images, ...
Tzviya: this ties back to the JSON-LD discussion
Wendy: audiobooks have an
example
... and audiobook in a language that does not have a text
form
... the TOC might use voice prompts or images
... we'd want a machine-readable TOC to be able to say "there's
no text for this chapter"
Luc: I'm concerned with
performance to compute a machine-readable TOC
... as a publisher, I have no issue to prepare a machine
readable and a presentable TOC
... I don't care about duplication
... I care about production and performance for the user
experience
... I have no issue with a complex presentaton TOC
Laurent: a good discussion would
be what is the user experience in an RS if there is no
machine-readable TOC only an HTML page
... the TOC could still be accessible but it might take the
whole screen because the RS wouldn't know how to make it
smaller
... would this be a good user experience?
Hadrien: we're discussing two
concepts
... something nice, presented to the user in many ways
... and something else meant for accessibility or [other]
specific UI features
... in EPUB3 we tried to have something serve both and
failed
... I'm wondering if we shouldn't simply treat them as
separate
... the machine-readable one may have some very specific
information
... I'm not hearing yet a step forward
Ivan: Juan might come up with a
more general and usable solution
... if JuansAlgorithm fails there can be a fallback for the UA
to use it as is
... an imagemap can be marked as a TOC, JuansAlgorithm will
fail, and Benjamin will get what he wants
Hadrien: one can mark up the same element with two different doc-XXX to denote the two different navigations approaches in one element
Tzviya: we get into a tricky area if you're thinking that the accessible version is different
Hadrien: that's not what I'm
suggesting
... I was thinking at the manifest level
Tzviya: I think people will be happier with Juan's approach if it works
Ivan: is there another ARIA element?
Tzviya: not really
Dave: it's possible to be both smart and good looking :)
<bigbluehat> https://wileylabs.github.io/no-can-transclude/moby-dick-from-epub-samples/
Benjamin: ^^ shows what one can
do
... it's an EPUB in which I renamed the nav file to
index.html
... Avnesh says this is sufficient for accessibility
... next and previous are populated from what's underneath what
you read
... it's not using LI or anything magical; just finding the
next anchor
... keeps reading state
Tzviya: this is navigation, not the TOC
Benjamin: in this document those
happen to be the same
... I claim that navigation can be as simple as next anchor
Ivan: the JuansAlgoritm might cover this
Juan: yes; I think this idea could still work
Benjamin: tree order can be determined from the parentage of each link
<Bobbytung> +1
Benjamin: if this were structured in an HTML DOM tree they could be represented in a machine-readable navigatin
<Hadrien> my proposal is to have two different rel values at a manifest level, if a resource can be both "good looking" and "machine readable", it would simply use both rels
Benjamin: I believe this suggests
that the algorithm is not very hard
... the machine readable thing is calculable
... this example calculates from the TOC
<tzviya> proposed CG https://www.w3.org/community/blog/2018/10/22/proposed-group-publishing-community-group/
Tzviya: I think this discussion could proceed in the newly proposed ^^ CG
Garth: the TOC discussion belongs
in this WG
... the discussion of options might come from the CG?
Tzviya: yes
Benjamin: I think the WG can keep the discussion
Tzviya: Juan will work on
JuansAlgorthm
... Hadrien will work on a double TOC proposal
Garth: I'm skeptical that JuansAlgorithm can work
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/present: liisa/present+ liisa/ Succeeded: s/acl laudrain// Succeeded: s/URC/UCR/ Succeeded: s/(irc only for now)// FAILED: s/Hal/Dave/ Succeeded: s/SHIOULD/SHOULD/ Succeeded: s/the answer is yes/the answer is yes: that's what polyfills are designed to do/ Succeeded: s/need to more/need to be more/ Succeeded: s/use/us/ Succeeded: s/promies/promise/ Succeeded: s/go out if it/go out of it/ Succeeded: s/stanpoint/standpoint/ Succeeded: s/have [side chatter]/have features that support WP?/ Succeeded: s/that [side chatter]?/that we should pay attention to?/ Succeeded: s/ivan long running/ivan: long running/ Succeeded: s/ivan schema.org also/ivan: schema.org also/ Succeeded: s/addison this also applies/addison: this also applies/ Succeeded: s/ivan we do have/ivan: we do have/ Succeeded: s/liisamk are we also/liisamk: are we also/ Succeeded: s/onyx/ONIX/ Succeeded: s/???/Mathias/ Succeeded: s/its HTML and XML/it's XML not HTML/ Succeeded: s/Mathias/Matthias_Kovatsch/ FAILED: s/making proposals/writing down proposals/ Succeeded: s/badhes/badges/ Succeeded: s/38/28/ Succeeded: s/s32// Succeeded: s/rith/rithm/ Succeeded: s/e?/es?/ Succeeded: s/Adrien:/Hadrien:/ Succeeded: s/@@/one can mark up the same element with two different doc-XXX to denote the two different navigations approaches in one element/ Default Present: liisa, JunGamo, Gregg_Kellogg, bobbytung, Ralph_Swick, DanielWeck, JuanCorona, gkellogg, josh, ReinaldoFerraz, Vlad_, wolfgang Present: wendyreid romain ivan George duga tzviya marisa Hadrien Rachel toshiakikoike clapierre laudrain bigbluehat gpellegrino Garth laurentlemeur Avneesh dauwhe liisa JunGamo Gregg_Kellogg bobbytung Ralph_Swick DanielWeck JuanCorona gkellogg josh ReinaldoFerraz Vlad_ wolfgang Karen_Myers Leonard_Rosenthol Cristina_Mussinelli Guillaume_Sire(observer) Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: duga Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: duga Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: duga Found ScribeNick: duga Found ScribeNick: bigbluehat Found ScribeNick: duga Found ScribeNick: leonardr Found ScribeNick: Rachel Found ScribeNick: Ralph Inferring Scribes: bigbluehat, duga, leonardr, Rachel, Ralph Scribes: bigbluehat, duga, leonardr, Rachel, Ralph ScribeNicks: bigbluehat, duga, leonardr, Rachel, Ralph Agenda: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mt9PTcOdmrCwIsgfxbGMGjwHlUsySU01I0D4oBkSbcA/edit WARNING: Could not parse date. Unknown month name "10": 2018-10=22 Format should be like "Date: 31 Jan 2004" WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]