14:00:10 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:00:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/04-tt-irc 14:00:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:00:12 Zakim has joined #tt 14:00:14 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:00:14 Date: 04 October 2018 14:00:44 Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/10/04-tt-irc 14:01:51 Present: Cyril, Nigel 14:02:18 Chair: Nigel 14:02:21 scribe: nigel 14:02:24 Regrets: None 14:02:34 Topic: This meeting 14:03:35 Present+ Glenn, Pierre 14:03:57 Nigel: On the agenda today we have a very quick status update on the PR transitions, 14:04:08 tmichel has joined #tt 14:04:13 .. a couple of issues raised by the Director during the transition request assessment, 14:04:23 .. and two issues on the TTML Profile Registry. 14:04:36 .. Then TPAC2018 and I think that's all for our agenda. 14:04:44 .. Any other points to raise or other business? 14:04:58 group: [no other points] 14:05:15 Topic: PR transition requests 14:05:32 Nigel: As I notified to the reflector earlier, our PR transition requests were approved and 14:05:43 .. all three specifications were published today. Congratulations everyone, and thank 14:05:49 .. you for your hard work getting us here. 14:06:30 Present+ Thierry 14:06:49 Thierry: The AC survey asks for endorsement to move to Rec or request modifications 14:06:53 .. or raise formal objection. 14:07:10 Glenn: Approve as-is, see changes, disapprove, and if so, why, and it asks if your company 14:07:13 .. plans to implement etc. 14:07:26 Glenn: I already have submitted ours. 14:07:54 Nigel: I think BBC has submitted our response also. 14:08:26 Nigel: I generally encourage all AC Reps to submit a response, especially if it is a positive one! 14:08:37 Thierry: Probably we should ping the companies that are involved in accessibility - these 14:08:42 .. people would definitely support TTML. 14:08:45 Nigel: Good point 14:09:53 .. I will also prompt the AD CG. 14:10:11 Glenn: The M&E IG would be worth prompting. 14:10:18 Cyril: Maybe we could send them an email. 14:10:42 Glenn: I would suggest a private message rather than a group email. There's no rule why not though. 14:11:22 Nigel: I will send an informative email highlighting to those groups that the PRs have 14:11:36 .. been published and explaining the next step is for members to vote via their AC reps. 14:12:12 Nigel: Two issues were raised during the transition assessment, one on IMSC, the other 14:12:20 .. on TTML1 and TTML2 by reference. 14:12:37 Topic: WCAG 2.1 instead of WCAG 2.0? imsc#465 14:12:42 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/465 14:13:45 Nigel: Is everyone in favour of deferring an update of the WCAG 2.0 reference to 2.1 until 14:13:58 .. a later edition or version of IMSC (after the Rec). 14:14:09 Thierry: If we want to put it in the Rec that could be do-able, if it is not a normative change. 14:14:16 Pierre: It is a normative change. 14:14:27 Glenn: We've treated changes to normative references as normative changes in the past. 14:15:06 Nigel: Just to confirm, IMSC Appendix D is normative and the reference to WCAG 2.0 is 14:15:12 .. normative, so it would be a substantive change. 14:15:29 .. Presumably that means we could not do it in Rec even if we wanted to? 14:15:38 Thierry: Yes, I think it could be trouble - in that case I would rather delay. 14:15:58 Nigel: Any objections to deferring to a later edition or version of IMSC? 14:16:05 group: [no objections] 14:16:10 Nigel: We have consensus 14:16:24 RESOLUTION: Defer adoption of WCAG 2.1 to a future edition or version of IMSC. 14:16:29 github-bot, end topic 14:16:55 Topic: Check dependency on CSS 3 Color. ttml1#370 14:17:02 github: https://github.com/w3c/ttml1/issues/370 14:17:15 Glenn: Background here would be useful. The reason we made it a normative reference 14:17:26 .. was that at the time we published TTML1 there was no formal definition of opacity in 14:17:38 .. either CSS-land or XSL-land. The only thing we could go from was the CSS3 color work 14:17:48 .. that was under way and was just arriving at Rec in its first edition. 14:17:54 s/n./n 14:18:02 .. as we were coming to close on TTML1 (1st edition). 14:18:11 .. There was some discussion about whether to make it informative or normative. 14:18:25 .. One of the comments was that there was potential dependency. Being conservative we 14:18:33 .. decided to bump it up to be a normative reference. 14:18:44 .. Looking back, that was probably not the best thing to do. It falls into the category 14:18:53 .. of some of the other CSS specs we have used for derivation purposes. 14:19:10 .. Also, earlier, some of the derivations were not in notes; now they all are in notes. 14:19:25 .. That's the history. My conclusion after going through this cycle with Ralph would be 14:19:41 .. that it wouldn't hurt to make it an informative reference and be aligned with our other 14:19:44 .. derivation references. 14:19:59 .. XSL is a normative reference because we used a lot of its terminology and model, so 14:20:10 .. we do have normative derivations from XSL. 14:20:24 .. I wouldn't mind keeping the reference in the normative section or moving it to the 14:20:40 .. informative section. I would probably give preference to moving to informative for 14:20:53 .. consistency, in the next edition, not now unless someone is screaming for it now. 14:21:08 .. If a commenter says "support but only with these changes" then that could trigger 14:21:11 .. making changes to the spec. 14:21:20 .. We can't rule that out. 14:21:26 Nigel: Thanks, that makes sense. 14:22:24 .. In my view the reference is only made from informative sections so it is an informative 14:22:38 .. reference. It is moot whether the bibliography entry is in the normative or informative 14:22:45 .. section. We could move it with no change in status. 14:23:01 Glenn: I agree, for consistency we should move it to the informative references section. 14:23:33 Nigel: If we think this is only an editorial change, could we make this change? 14:23:41 Pierre: For the record, I think we should not touch the document. 14:23:51 Glenn: Unless someone is really calling for it, outside this group, I agree. 14:24:15 Thierry: If we have an AC rep complaining then we could look at this. 14:24:26 Glenn: Yes 14:24:40 Nigel: My question Thierry was really about the possible, not what we should do. 14:25:08 Thierry: If its an editorial change, we could do it, but if its a bigger change then that's different. 14:25:25 Nigel: Okay I think I'm hearing consensus for making no change immediately, and deferring 14:25:40 .. this to a future edition, unless there is a strong call from the AC review to make a change, 14:25:49 .. in which case we will review based on the AC review comments we receive. 14:26:55 RESOLUTION: Defer this issue to a future edition unless there is a strong call from the AC review to make a change, in which case we may revisit this based on whatever AC review comment applies. 14:27:06 github-bot, end topic 14:28:10 Topic: IMSC 1.1, TTML1 3rd Ed, TTML2 PRs 14:29:04 Nigel: I think the only thing remaining on IMSC 1.1, TTML1 3rd Ed and TTML2 is to merge 14:29:20 .. the PR pull requests and begin work preparing the Rec versions in new pull requests. 14:30:05 Glenn: Please could you approve the pull request? 14:30:13 Nigel: I've just approved ttml2#1007. 14:30:39 Pierre: For IMSC I will merge the pull request and then take it from there. 14:34:50 Topic: TTML Profile Registry 14:35:02 Nigel: EBU raised two issues on this earlier today, which I'd like to mention quickly. 14:35:20 .. Now is a good time to start thinking about updates to the document. 14:36:01 .. The two issues were 1: #42, Add EBU-TT Profiles, which simply lists some requested 14:36:14 .. changes. They add updated versions of EBU-TT and EBU-TT-D specifications. 14:36:41 .. I'm not sure who will raise the pull request - I might do it. 14:37:10 .. Can I assume there are no objections to adding those? 14:37:34 Cyril: None from me, but what is the xpath? 14:37:49 Nigel: It's the location where the document conformance data can be found inside the 14:37:52 .. document instance. 14:37:58 Cyril: Is that in the registry already? 14:38:00 Nigel: Yes 14:38:06 Cyril: I see it is in the second table. 14:38:07 Nigel: yes 14:38:48 Nigel: The other issue is #43 Add informative mention of EBU-TT Metadata 14:39:03 .. This is a request to add an informative appendix in which related documents can be 14:39:20 .. described. In this case the request is to add the EBU-TT Metadata vocabulary definition 14:39:38 .. which is aimed at contribution, exchange and archive of subtitle and caption documents. 14:39:59 .. It's just a request to list it, with no requirement for anyone to use it. 14:40:14 Cyril: Why? Those specs are already mentioned. 14:40:28 Nigel: There's a bit more background - the metadata vocabulary was removed from the 14:40:38 .. newer spec versions and moved to a separate spec, hence the request. 14:41:03 Cyril: What is the new document? 14:41:22 -> https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3390.pdf EBU Tech3390 Metadata 14:44:08 Cyril: Instead of having an appendix, I feel that people will want to add lots of things, 14:44:20 .. that it may not be the right place for, but instead say that the ebuttm: namespace is 14:44:40 .. defined in Tech3390 and reference that from section ยง4.2, below the table, in a note. 14:44:59 .. "Elements defined in the ebuttm: prefix are defined in Tech3390..." 14:45:05 Nigel: That's a good idea. 14:45:23 .. Would you mind adding that suggestion to the issue? 14:45:25 Cyril: Sure 14:46:27 Nigel: If there are no other thoughts on that issue, just a reminder we need to create 14:46:54 .. pull requests for adding TTML2 profiles (issue #39) and address issue #38 on how to 14:47:03 .. handle Content Profiles vs Processor Profiles. 14:47:18 .. I still haven't got any answers for how to do that in this document. 14:47:50 .. Formally, Mike Dolan was the most recent Editor for this document. I don't know if he 14:48:18 .. still wants to work on this, but any of us can prepare pull requests etc. 14:48:26 Cyril: We need to do IMSC 1.1 too. 14:48:36 Nigel: There's already a pull request open for that, we just need to merge it. 14:49:02 .. Planning-wise, if we are able to publish an updated version of this on the same day as 14:49:06 .. the Recs that would be elegant. 14:49:38 Cyril: I'm re-reading that document and am surprised by some of the text. It says it 14:49:49 .. is the MIME type registration but also that it is a registry that may be updated. 14:50:05 .. I will create an issue on the wording there - it needs to say it _contains_ a registry, not 14:50:10 .. that it _is_ a registry. 14:51:28 Topic: TPAC 2018 14:51:49 Nigel: We haven't made much progress towards a joint meeting with CSS WG and at this 14:51:58 .. stage I'm not sure if we need one. I did notice that they are planning a joint meeting 14:52:12 .. with i18n and put out a call for agenda topics - that might be something we want to 14:52:45 .. check out and add things to? Any members who are both CSS WG and TTWG members 14:53:32 .. can see the request and add any relevant issues to it. 14:54:36 Glenn: On 3rd October Elika sent a message to Timed Text 14:54:43 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-timed-text/2018Oct/0000.html Message from Elika 14:55:08 Glenn: She pointed out that CSS Text 3 and 4 WDs have been published that include 14:55:16 .. line-padding and text-group-align. 14:55:21 Nigel: That's great news, I missed that. 14:57:58 Nigel: I updated the agenda on the wiki page linked to from the agenda for this meeting, 14:58:13 .. to reflect our most recent discussion. Any other topics, please add them to the wiki page. 14:59:33 .. We have requests from a number of observers - I will send an email to them telling 14:59:40 .. them they can attend and observe. 15:00:25 Topic: Meeting close 15:00:35 Nigel: We've completed our agenda for today, meet again next week. 15:00:50 Glenn: Okay, thanks all for the hard work. It's nice to have a break after the tough flog. 15:00:53 Nigel: Indeed! 15:04:41 Thierry: Thank you and congratulations to all of you. 15:04:56 Nigel: [adjourns meeting] 15:05:05 rrsagent, make minutes 15:05:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:06:37 s/of IMSC (after the Rec)./of IMSC (after the Rec)? 15:06:59 ithub-bot, end topic 15:07:04 github-bot, end topic 15:07:19 s/github-bot, end topic//g 15:07:23 s/ithub-bot, end topic/ 15:07:38 rrsagent, make minutes 15:07:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:17:25 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:17:26 rrsagent, make minutes 15:17:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:22:05 Zakim has left #tt