<Tavmjong> Be there in a sec..

<scribe> ScribeNick: krit

Republishing updated CR

AmeliaBR: had couple of changes in the last weeks/months. Most is cleanup, adding blank files as placeholder for the pages we removed earlier.
... There is one item that I was waiting for an that is Tavmjong's text changes.

Tavmjong: I can work on this next week.

AmeliaBR: Appendices that need to move normative text to the actual sections. Dirk are you still working on it or should I take over?

krit: If you have spare cycles please take it over otherwise I'll do it.

AmeliaBR: so next weeks version for CR.

chris: should we resolve this week or next week?

AmeliaBR: lets do it today.

chris: agree

RESOLUTION: Publish updated CR

Automated build before merging PRs

AmeliaBR: right now we merge PRs first and then we build the spec. Sometimes we get errors but would be great to see build issues before merging PRs.

chris: Agree that we should have this.
... most WGs use it.
... Who is responsible for the build system? Is there any documentation?

AmeliaBR: It is set up by Cameron. I can help you with local builds.
... Cameron has an additional test on the server if the actual build scripts changed.
... Running on the same server that hosts svgwg.org

krit: chris could you check with Cameron how the build system works?

chris: yes will do.

AmeliaBR: Travis could be set up for simple build tests. The additional check for whether the tools are modified probably need extra little scripts with human interactions.

krit: Lets wait for Cameron to respond how the system is set up.

The interpolation of large_arc_flag

GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/543

krit: thought SMIL animates it half way already? What is the difference?

chris: it affectively is a boolean that gets flipped.

krit: doesn't the flip at 0.5 happen already?

AmeliaBR: no, SVG SMIL defines that integers get interpolated as number and everything not 0 gets set to 1.
... would a change here affect that all SMIL animated integers would animate the half-way flip?

krit: this is likely for WebKit and Blink.
... Many SVG 1,1 tests may fail if implementations change for all SMIL integer animations.

chris: but likely not the tests on WebPlatform.

krit: probably not.

chris: we have the option to change the test then or remove it as obsolete.

krit: I am nor sure if implementations would care about the change.

AmeliaBR: we could allow to use both ways recommending the half-way flip.

Tavmjong: did anyone test it yet.

krit: I see that Brian is participating in the issue as well. Is that something that the web animation spec can do it.

AmeliaBR: There is no other spec that defines how to interpolate path.

chris: I think the motion spec might define it.
... ppl using path Interpolation probably don't use elliptic path segments.

AmeliaBR: likely but we need to define it still.

krit: any preferences?

chris: My preference is flipping at 0.5.

Tavmjong: me too.

AmeliaBR: most sensible.
... Likely no serious web compatibility issue.
... but there should be a note that the behavior changed,
... Motion path is deferring to SVG 1.1

krit: do we still have the animation chapter? Think we removed it.

AmeliaBR: defined in the path chapter. That needs to be written as an abstract data type instead of a certain property.
... change needs to happen in https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/paths.html#TheDProperty 7th paragraph
... We also need to add interpolation for the path() function.

chris: I can take that and do the edit.

AmeliaBR: Check with Eric.

chris: yes will add ppl to the PR reviewer list.

RESOLUTION: Flipping boolean and integers half way for path interpolation

Character counting on dx/dy properties

GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/537

chris: Correct behavior is what Edge does I think
... (describes Edge behavior as written in the issue)
... This is using CSS3 Text typographic characters.
... are all implementations agreeing to do what edge does.

Tavmjong: that requires that you have a library or some way of knowing what clusters go together
... So ppl with different libraries should have the same behavior.
... for predictability, using unicode characters might be more predictable.

chris: kind of

AmeliaBR: it is more author friendly to use typographic character but adds more complication to implementation

Tavmjong: I don't know of a library that would be able to do this right now.

AmeliaBR: many rendering implementations that need 3rd-party libraries are in the same position.

Tavmjong: we use Tango.

chris: I think Pango supports it. At least Freetype does that.

<chris> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-app-devel-list/2008-May/msg00083.html

Tavmjong: my guess is what Pango does is relying on the information in the font

chris: hm, not so sure if that is the case.

<chris> suggest asking Behdad

Tavmjong: I am not convinced of the Edge behavior right now. I don't think we can implement it right now.
... My testing showed that everyone was using unicode points.

AmeliaBR: Based on my browser testing, Edge is the only one using glyph clusters, FF uses unicode character but lays them out by glyphs, Blink and WebKit separate accents from their base characters.

RESOLUTION: Complex script should be rotated and moved together

Tavmjong: the question is about counting now.

krit: do you think you can check and get back to the WG with your implementation results?

Tavmjong: I think I can get some data.

<chris> I think Harfbuzz does the UAX29 segmentation https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/harfbuzz/2015-September/005083.html

AmeliaBR: maybe ping a few other ppl on the issue for feasibility. I think FF uses Pango on some platforms too.

Tavmjong: that would be a changed behavior to SVG 1.1

chris: yes it would

AmeliaBR: we have inconsistency anyway.

Tavmjong: I'll look into it by next week

AmeliaBR: we already has resolutions on the simpler cases

Normalizing before serializing paths

GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/321

AmeliaBR: Eric has posted new web platform tests.

krit: is this about serialization/normalization for CSS or animation or both?

chris: both

AmeliaBR: If you have visual identical paths but with different segements, should they animate together and get normalised upfront.
... Initial issue was that normalisation only happens for animation
... Eric suggests that we always normalise for computed style

krit: Does Erik refer to getComputedStlye or used style?

AmeliaBR: I assume the former but we need to ask hmi
... when you set a value and query it back, did it change? Where did the change happen in the process?
... the way animation was defined in SVG 1.1 and SMIL, you have to be using the exact same path types.
... So L and l would not animate together. With Erics change to blink they would get normalised to abs values and then interpolated.
... this could have unexpected results as well for instance M to m
... I am not sure this is the best way to go... there might be unintuitive ones.
... but we need to define when the upgrading should happen and why.

krit: normalisation was defined in SVG 1.2 Tiny as well but was very strict about the types supported in the normalised string. For instance, elliptic segments got normalised to cubics which caused dfifferences between implementations.

chris: I think this is really just about normalisation to absolute type and not reducing segments to other types.

AmeliaBR: my concern is that dealing with relative values and animating additional values you get different results than animation of all points. I need to come up with an example that demonstrates the different visual effects depending on the normalisation.

krit: what is the goal of this issue? To make animations easier for authors or implementations?

AmeliaBR: To make it easier for 2 things that look similar to animate.

krit: I am concerned about "similar paths". Are we discussing 2 paths with totally different segments that look different or still the same type of segment in the same order but differ between rel and abs?
... the former needs interpolation algorithms which we should not get into right now.

chris: we are talking about the latter

AmeliaBR: ...and in addition some of the shorthands.

<AmeliaBR> https://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/pen/22197a68306ad0d52e35054e408acef0?editors=1000

krit: AmeliaBR do you think you can come up with examples in on of the next meetings?

AmeliaBR: I actually have one.
... In the example one point is relative and the other absolute. Animating them together you get a different pattern.
... never mind. This example doesn't show the issue. Will look into it and post on the GitHub issue.

trackbot, end telcon

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Succeeded: s/additional tests/additional check for whether the tools are modified/
Succeeded: s/not 1 gets set to 0/not 0 gets set to 1/
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Found Date: 17 Sep 2018
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