<jeanne> scribe: LuisG
Update on where we are with Requirements Doc
Shawn: We got lots of positive
feedback with folks saying "this is a good direction"
... One of the questions was "What would happen if we got AGWG
working on Silver instead of WCAG 2.2?" We weren't quite
prepared to answer, so said "let's get requirements first and
then revisit"
... They also wanted to know "if we did WCAG 2.2, what would
most likely go into it?"
Jeane: That was going back into
folks that worked on 2.1 and wondering what they wanted to put
in 2.2
... FYI: AGWG is parent of the Silver community group
<Charles> In my opinion, 2.x = backlog; silver = new
Jennison: If AGWG were to shift to Silver, how would that affect us?
Shawn: It would very much change
how we're managing the project now. We have a lot of
prototyping we want to do and it would be a major shift.
Everyone won't work on all the things. We need to have some
people work on X. One person manage another prototype,
etc.
... a double edged sword of a lot more people helping, but
having to also manage a lot of people
<Charles> 2.x = (broad) response to collected research and input from multiple task forces; silver = (narrow) response to explicit research of one task force.
<Charles> but the real distinction is 2.x is locked to not alter previous 2.0 – 2.x; silver is specifically altering
Jeanne: There was a fair amount of pushback about our decision to postpone writing a requirement for technology neutral.
<jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/19
Jeanne: We got some comments in
Github about the requirements document.
... He wanted more reasons why we need guidelines.
... Talked about wht would happen if we broaden scope...very
long and thorough. We should review in detail for a future
draft
... Another comment from David MacDonald about measurability vs
testability
<Charles> we also included lawyers
<jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/22
Jeanne: said we'd need input from
lawyers, and other points. I replied addressing some of his
concerns.
... oh, and it seems he's replied already
KimD: What about some kind of transition document? The sooner you can get people up to speed for changing thinking, it would be helpful.
<Charles> so less onboarding and more “how to use Mac for former Windows users”?
Jeanne: That sounds great. Do you have time to sit with me to figure out what should be in it? I've been looking at it so long, it's hard to say what should be in the transition doc.
<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne with KimD to work on a transition document for AGWG to Silver explaining why the change in thinking.
<trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - With kimd to work on a transition document for agwg to silver explaining why the change in thinking. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2018-07-20].
Jeanne: EO Education and Outreach
working group of W3C works pretty closely with AGWG, but do
educational documents W3C makes. Some are difficult to find,
but they're very useful.
... want to find better ways to link out more to their
resources. They're doing a project to rewrite Understanding
WCAG document in plain language
... asked if we could take some of their plain language work
and include it in the prototype so folks have more content to
work with
... was thinking of taking some of Cybele's work in plain
language and some of the EO work for Understanding and creating
a file of data to use in prototypes.
... Some more tangible data of what Silver would look like
Charles: Fire thing that came to mind. They must have some criteria for plain language. Let's make sure our criteria are aligned.
Jeanne: That'll relate to our Plain Language Style Guide agenda item
Charles: Is it something that can be socialized? Is it public knowledge?
Jeanne: Their email lists are
open to the public. So probably fine. And if they have a style
guide, we could make sure we're in line with it
... anyone want to take this task of gather data and maybe put
it in Github?
Angela: I can help put some of that together if someone can help me with Github?
Jeanne: This is a longstanding
action item. We should have examples of items that didn't get
into 2.1 that we want to get into Silver so we can test
whatever prototypes for structure to see if the new examples
work in the structure.
... suggested we used Accessible Authentication. Didn't get in
for 2.1 because not strictly testable
... suggested doing a usability test under "these"
circumstances, can you log in. If you turn off monitor, unplug
mouse, etc. can you log in?
... didn't fit WCAG model, but could and should meet Silver
model
... low vision may ask us to test focus indicator
usability
... the other that is testability related is...something
related to font family. It was turned down because too hard to
test all of the fonts a user could have on their system.
... willing to share a lot of data with us.
... So we have 3 examples of things we can do usability testing
of the prototypes with
... and as we get them done, we can set up tests
Cybele: I have my own list of
things that didn't get into 2.1
... why prioritization of A, AA, AAA? What are the biases
around that?
... Bias around impossibility or difficulty and that's a
problematic bias for people with cognitive disabilities.
... the other is around conflict. Some disabilities have
conflicting needs with others
... is it better to have fixed vs sortable information, for
example
Jeanne: This is a good place to
bring this up; maybe not the best time. A, AA, AAA is something
that came up for us. We would want a different system and we're
working towards that.
... Regarding font family advice and conflicts, we'll probably
deal with it more in 2019
... unless you think we should do something structurally to
address conflict
Cybele: In brick-and-mortar world there is literature for dealing with conflict. Some general principles on accommodating people with diverse needs would be useful
Kim: I second Cybele's thoughts
on this.
... from speech input point of view, there are conflicts that
people don't typically see
Charles: Something we accounted for was when SC were related to others or couldn't be achieved because of conflicts...something in the structure that shows relational or conflict path between criteria
<jeanne> ACTION: LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes
<trackbot> Error finding 'LuisG'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/track/users>.
<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne with LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes
<trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - With luisg to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2018-07-20].
Charles: Google Doc would
probably be better. Need to figure out What is our testing
strategy and then...
... we need some mechanism to compare it to something
else.
... one of the strategies should be a comparative one. So we
can determine if one is a winner depending on how it scores
against something else.
... but that might not be the only strategy.
Jeanne: For now we just want to
capture the ideas we had today.
... We only have your two examples for plain text.
... thought we could start working on strategy for style guide.
i think kim said we should get it from EO
... that's a great place to start. Kim/Cybele, what did you
learn from writing the text that should be included in a Silver
styleguide?
<Charles> some of the resources in this doc had style guides: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPMbnOGKS4B6LIQ3_vQ0NFKK7LYUgM3TO7nCc7OOacs/edit?usp=sharing
Kim: Just made language as clear
as it could be. See if you can make it clearer with the
existing confines.
... when you have versions of things, cutting down a long story
for a radio copy
... starting one of them and not going too back-and-forth is a
key thing
... it's tough doing plain language from a moving target. Doing
a pass through preserving the information is a useful thing to
do.
Jeanne: I want to show your work to the AGWG as something they can do in 2.2
Cybele: Putting the audience at
the center and thinking about what's currently out there
helps.
... I went to the guidelines and the Understanding documents. I
looked at blogs for people explaining it to others. What
worked, what didn't work, etc.
... I thought about the people that tend to hold back
accessibility improvements. A manager not wanting to spend
money, a creator looking for a minimum viable product,
etc.
... people that see it as difficult and want to make it easier
for them
... make the standard more accessible for them
<Charles> Style from John Rochford example: Some principles I employed are: using 1 or 2 syllable words that are common; reducing sentence length; using active voice in the present tense; replacing non-literal expressions, such as “turn up the sound” to “make the sound louder”; using examples, such as the above, to illustrate a point; and lists instead of long sentences.
Cybele: I continue seeing a11y
done at the tail end of projects. What would help create a
culture shift
... Reframing the structure and leading with where people were
at in terms of people that experience barriers.
... People fixated on "I'm doing a mobile app" and getting them
to understand that's not how everyone will use it.
... from a specific language perspective. Reducing the reading
score.
... it could probably be reduced even further, but thought it
gave somewhere to start from
Jeanne: We'll talk more on this when we have more examples.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Present: Charles AngelaAccessForAll LuisG KimD jeanne Cybele Lauriat Jennison shari Regrets: Jan Found Scribe: LuisG Inferring ScribeNick: LuisG Found Date: 13 Jul 2018 People with action items: jeanne kimd luisg with WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]