IRC log of tt on 2018-03-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:00:02 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #tt
- 14:00:02 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-irc
- 14:00:05 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:00:05 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #tt
- 14:00:07 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
- 14:00:07 [trackbot]
- Date: 15 March 2018
- 14:00:11 [nigel]
- Log: https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-irc
- 14:00:15 [nigel]
- Present: Nigel
- 14:00:20 [nigel]
- Regrets: Pierre, Cyril
- 14:00:47 [nigel]
- Chair: Nigel
- 14:00:50 [nigel]
- scribe: nigel
- 14:02:05 [nigel]
- Present+ Andreas
- 14:03:32 [nigel]
- Present+ Glenn
- 14:04:36 [atai2]
- atai2 has joined #tt
- 14:06:25 [nigel]
- Topic: This meeting
- 14:06:49 [nigel]
- Nigel: Let's do what we can today given the unusually low attendance.
- 14:07:40 [nigel]
- .. We have very little on the agenda today, just the following that I'm aware of:
- 14:07:48 [nigel]
- .. TTML1 3rd Ed CR transition request
- 14:07:57 [nigel]
- .. The two open actions on tracker for TTML2.
- 14:08:03 [nigel]
- .. Anything else?
- 14:08:15 [nigel]
- Glenn: I'd like to look at ttml2#696
- 14:08:38 [nigel]
- Topic: TTML1 CR
- 14:08:54 [nigel]
- Nigel: Referring back to the resolution we made 2 weeks ago, to request transition of
- 14:09:13 [nigel]
- .. TTML1 to CR after merging the open pull requests, the review period ends now, so the
- 14:09:26 [nigel]
- .. decision is final, and I will go ahead and make the transition request based on the
- 14:09:54 [nigel]
- .. version on the TTML1-3ED-CR1 branch, viewable at https://rawgit.com/w3c/ttml1/TTML1-3ED-CR1-build/index.html
- 14:10:10 [nigel]
- .. In the absence of Thierry right now, I'll do that after the meeting.
- 14:10:40 [nigel]
- Topic: TTML2 Actions
- 14:10:47 [nigel]
- Action-443?
- 14:10:47 [trackbot]
- Action-443 -- Glenn Adams to Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib. -- due 2016-08-26 -- OPEN
- 14:10:47 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/443
- 14:11:45 [nigel]
- Glenn: I still don't think it would be a bad idea to do that, I just don't have the wherewithal
- 14:12:01 [nigel]
- .. to do it, so we could either close it and defer it for the future or assign it to someone else.
- 14:12:20 [nigel]
- .. It may be that as TTML2 gets closer to Rec I might have time to do it, but in terms of
- 14:12:30 [nigel]
- .. communicating the work that we've done to communicate the work we've done to support
- 14:12:45 [nigel]
- .. Japanese to ARIB would be the proper thing to do.
- 14:14:01 [nigel]
- Nigel: It would be timely to do this now since we are in CR and interested in implementation
- 14:14:16 [nigel]
- .. work, and ARIB members are possible implementers.
- 14:14:21 [nigel]
- Glenn: OK, leave it with me.
- 14:14:55 [nigel]
- ACTION-443: WG reviewed this and will attempt to satisfy it during CR1
- 14:14:55 [trackbot]
- Notes added to ACTION-443 Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib..
- 14:15:23 [nigel]
- Nigel: I've updated the due date to end of April.
- 14:15:32 [nigel]
- Action-462?
- 14:15:32 [trackbot]
- Action-462 -- Glenn Adams to Create issue on ttml2 to add "mapping from other versions and profiles of ttml" -- due 2016-04-28 -- OPEN
- 14:15:32 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/462
- 14:16:26 [nigel]
- Nigel: The question in my mind here is: has this been overtaken by events?
- 14:16:42 [nigel]
- Glenn: I think putting this kind of information is putting the cart before the horse. The
- 14:16:58 [nigel]
- .. mapping of profiles should be put into updates to the profiles.
- 14:17:47 [nigel]
- .. We have listed substantive changes since TTML1 already.
- 14:17:59 [nigel]
- Nigel: What about mapping to make a TTML2 document instance from a TTML1 document instance?
- 14:18:09 [nigel]
- Glenn: That's easy, it's a no-op.
- 14:18:17 [nigel]
- Nigel: Because we haven't prohibited anything from TTML1, right?
- 14:18:56 [nigel]
- Glenn: Yes, we've deprecated a few things, that's about it.
- 14:19:09 [nigel]
- .. If we obsolete anything then we should do something here.
- 14:19:50 [nigel]
- Nigel: Looking back on the minutes from when we originally raised this action, there was
- 14:20:05 [nigel]
- .. a query about mapping from smpte:backgroundImage to the TTML2 image element.
- 14:20:19 [nigel]
- .. In fact that is already noted in TTML2 and more detail is in IMSC 1.1. So I think there is
- 14:20:25 [nigel]
- .. no remaining action needed here.
- 14:20:37 [nigel]
- Glenn: For me the potential action would be for SMPTE to update their spec to refer to
- 14:20:54 [nigel]
- .. IMSC 1.1 or paraphrase it. Not for TTML to go back and reference SMPTE-TT.
- 14:22:09 [nigel]
- ACTION-462: Discussed in WG meeting today, overtaken by events and no longer needed.
- 14:22:09 [trackbot]
- Notes added to ACTION-462 Create issue on ttml2 to add "mapping from other versions and profiles of ttml".
- 14:22:12 [nigel]
- close action-462
- 14:22:12 [trackbot]
- Closed action-462.
- 14:23:00 [nigel]
- Topic: TTML2 Add CR1 upload package ttml2#696 (pull request)
- 14:23:25 [nigel]
- Glenn: After this is merged I'm willing to create a release task, and make a release containing
- 14:23:40 [nigel]
- .. the artefacts, pointing to gh-pages. I still want to upload the tar file, which is consistent
- 14:23:52 [nigel]
- .. with what we did in the past in both TTML2 and TTML1. I haven't looked at gh-pages to
- 14:23:58 [nigel]
- .. see if there are other files.
- 14:27:31 [nigel]
- Nigel: This is a technical point - we could achieve the same goal by tagging the gh-pages branch with a release.
- 14:28:43 [nigel]
- Glenn: I'm suggesting merging this pull request and then I can also add a release based on
- 14:28:47 [nigel]
- .. the gh-pages branch.
- 14:28:51 [nigel]
- Nigel: Ok, I'll approve.
- 14:29:12 [nigel]
- Glenn: Thank you, I'll go ahead and create an artefacts release when the build has completed.
- 14:30:24 [nigel]
- Topic: TTML2 Implementation report
- 14:30:38 [nigel]
- Glenn: Since one was necessary to put into the CR SOTD I created a template as a starting point
- 14:30:58 [nigel]
- -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/TTML2ImplementationReport TTML2 Implementation Report
- 14:31:16 [nigel]
- Glenn: I've added the new features and have started putting the implementations in.
- 14:31:26 [nigel]
- .. I expect the entries to change as I verify each one over the next month.
- 14:31:38 [nigel]
- .. I'm also discussing this with Netflix and they will be adding their entries as well to new
- 14:31:46 [nigel]
- .. columns, so I'll coordinate with Cyril on that.
- 14:31:57 [nigel]
- Nigel: I'll add what we have especially for the audio features from BBC.
- 14:32:39 [nigel]
- .. I think I'll ask Thierry to style this to look more like what an implementation report
- 14:32:44 [nigel]
- .. normally looks like.
- 14:32:53 [nigel]
- Glenn: I'd like to discuss it before we do that.
- 14:34:03 [glenn]
- glenn has joined #tt
- 14:34:24 [nigel]
- Nigel: For an example of another one, see https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_0_1_Implementation_Report
- 14:34:38 [nigel]
- .. We can't really claim anything in the implementation report until we have tests.
- 14:35:20 [nigel]
- Glenn: I don't think so, we used the features as a list and solicited input from implementers
- 14:35:32 [nigel]
- .. on whether they implemented it or not. We did not tie specific tests to specific features,
- 14:35:36 [nigel]
- .. at least during that process.
- 14:35:48 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:35:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel
- 14:36:45 [glenn]
- https://www.w3.org/2006/DFXP/DFXP-implementation-result.html
- 14:38:00 [nigel]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2009/05/dfxp-results.html TTML 1.0 Test results
- 14:39:18 [nigel]
- Nigel: That link above is what you get to when you click on Implementation Report in the
- 14:39:31 [nigel]
- .. SOTD from TTML1 first edition PR https://www.w3.org/TR/2010/PR-ttaf1-dfxp-20100914/
- 14:39:45 [nigel]
- Glenn: I don't recall the discussion of this in the group at the time. I think we threw it over
- 14:40:34 [nigel]
- .. to Thierry to create whatever documents were needed to meet the Process.
- 14:40:51 [nigel]
- Nigel: I've not seen any W3C CRs whose implementation reports did not refer to tests.
- 14:41:12 [nigel]
- Glenn: We will be making a lot of tests available. We use features to identify implementable
- 14:41:24 [nigel]
- .. support so we need to tie the features to tests as you suggest.
- 14:41:31 [nigel]
- Nigel: One feature to one or more tests, yes.
- 14:41:47 [nigel]
- Glenn: Either we can integrate those into the same table, for example with tests corresponding
- 14:41:58 [nigel]
- .. to each feature. I'm concerned about the need to correlate tests to feature designations.
- 14:42:06 [nigel]
- Nigel: I agree that we would need to do that.
- 14:42:20 [nigel]
- Glenn: As long as we can do that, I'm happy with that. The current proposed table does
- 14:42:26 [nigel]
- .. not include that information so we need to add it somehow.
- 14:42:28 [nigel]
- Nigel: I agree.
- 14:42:41 [nigel]
- Glenn: One way would be to have a second table that maps features to tests, and then we
- 14:42:52 [nigel]
- .. could also have pass/fail type entries for the implementations in there. Then the feature
- 14:43:51 [nigel]
- .. based one would be a summary of the test one.
- 14:44:09 [nigel]
- Nigel: Seems too complex to me. They can just go in one table.
- 14:44:14 [nigel]
- -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report IMSC 1 Implementation Report
- 14:44:32 [nigel]
- Nigel: The IMSC 1 one does that to some extent, though again like the TTML1 implementation report,
- 14:44:40 [nigel]
- .. it does not explicitly list the feature designators.
- 14:45:36 [nigel]
- .. It does include heading rows linking back to a part of the spec.
- 14:45:47 [nigel]
- Glenn: What I want to get back to is a claim by the implementor that specific features are
- 14:45:52 [nigel]
- .. supported.
- 14:46:29 [nigel]
- .. This IMSC 1 table doesn't map the tests to features so you might hypothetically pass the test
- 14:46:42 [nigel]
- .. but not fully support a feature, and then abort processing as a result.
- 14:47:04 [nigel]
- .. In the TTV test suite I have a test called ttml2-valid-all-styles that has every style that is
- 14:47:22 [nigel]
- .. defined in TTML2 that is new. If I were to list that in a table like that here, then it would
- 14:47:28 [nigel]
- .. map to 20-30 features.
- 14:47:53 [nigel]
- Nigel: Agreed, it isn't useful in this context, though it may be useful in its own right.
- 14:48:05 [nigel]
- .. You might need to split it up into one style per feature.
- 14:48:21 [nigel]
- Glenn: Making a judgement about which features are needed for each test might be tricky.
- 14:48:43 [nigel]
- Nigel: Agreed, each test is dependent on a number of features.
- 14:49:28 [nigel]
- .. If you had a single test that checks for support for all the mandatory features, that could
- 14:49:33 [nigel]
- .. be a good basis to begin with.
- 14:49:54 [nigel]
- Andreas: It could be overkill to list all the features for every test. If a test were to fail, how
- 14:50:12 [nigel]
- .. would you discover exactly which feature was not supported properly. There's an endless
- 14:50:21 [nigel]
- .. list of features that are depended on - XML itself for example!
- 14:51:39 [nigel]
- Glenn: It has never been the explicit requirement that testing is needed to demonstrate
- 14:51:51 [nigel]
- .. interoperability to transition to PR - the implementation is there to demonstrate
- 14:51:54 [nigel]
- .. implementability.
- 14:52:00 [nigel]
- Nigel: That's true in the Process:
- 14:52:10 [nigel]
- -> https://www.w3.org/2018/Process-20180201/#rec-pr Transition to Proposed Rec
- 14:52:22 [nigel]
- Glenn: I would like to follow our history and demonstrate implementability as opposed to
- 14:52:35 [nigel]
- .. interoperability, but we need to have everyone on the same page, since you and maybe Pierre
- 14:52:39 [nigel]
- .. had some different views.
- 14:53:51 [nigel]
- Nigel: That's true. It would be crazy to attempt to test every possible permutation of combinations
- 14:54:04 [nigel]
- .. of features. Right now I'm expecting 2 tests per feature, one that is valid and demonstrates
- 14:54:15 [nigel]
- .. a useful behaviour related to the feature, and one that is invalid and causes a validating
- 14:54:27 [nigel]
- .. processor to issue an error. This is from our exit criteria.
- 14:54:42 [nigel]
- Glenn: I think I agree with that. We will submit three categories of test for adoption and use.
- 14:54:57 [nigel]
- .. I had asked a question to the group about where ESH_additions came from in TTML1
- 14:55:16 [nigel]
- Nigel: I don't know. What is in Mercurial too?
- 14:55:32 [nigel]
- Glenn: I couldn't find a record in the history from Mercurial to indicate where it came from.
- 14:55:48 [nigel]
- .. Inside the files in that directory, some were labelled W3C test material, others designated
- 14:56:03 [nigel]
- .. as copyright Microsoft. There's one that was completely bogus, and had microsoft labelling
- 14:56:21 [nigel]
- .. in it, which makes me nervous, which has a "test" on profile, with a features element
- 14:56:44 [nigel]
- .. that used a syntactic style similar to how we do tts:styles, with a bunch of tts attributes
- 14:56:57 [nigel]
- .. the value of which was broken or optional. It was broken compared to the actual syntax
- 14:57:15 [nigel]
- .. and the label on it made me worried that someone had actually implemented something like that.
- 14:57:30 [nigel]
- Nigel: Do we need to worry about it?
- 14:57:39 [nigel]
- Glenn: We need to remove the directory because people might think it is part of the TTML1
- 14:57:55 [nigel]
- .. test suite. I'd like you Nigel maybe to at least preliminarily take an action to ask if we
- 14:58:05 [nigel]
- .. should remove it and find out what the provenance of it is.
- 14:58:11 [nigel]
- Nigel: Ok I'll do that.
- 15:00:07 [atai2]
- atai2 has left #tt
- 15:00:13 [nigel]
- Topic: Meeting close
- 15:00:30 [nigel]
- Nigel: We're out of agenda so I'll close the meeting now. Thank you! [adjourns meeting]
- 15:00:35 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:00:35 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel
- 15:02:37 [tmichel]
- tmichel has joined #tt
- 15:08:11 [tmichel]
- sorry Nigel I have missed the call, didn't realize he shift of time
- 15:18:41 [tmichel]
- sorry I back two woek since two days drowned with hundreds of emails to catchup
- 15:19:02 [tmichel]
- and yesterday was in meeting all day.
- 15:40:38 [nigel]
- s/sorry Nigel I have missed the call, didn't realize he shift of time/
- 15:40:44 [nigel]
- s/sorry I back two woek since two days drowned with hundreds of emails to catchup/
- 15:40:51 [nigel]
- s/and yesterday was in meeting all day./
- 15:40:58 [nigel]
- scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
- 15:41:02 [nigel]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:41:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/03/15-tt-minutes.html nigel
- 16:06:05 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #tt