16:00:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
16:00:22 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/02/23-pbgsc-irc
16:00:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:00:23 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:00:23 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee Telco
16:00:23 <ivan> Chair: Liisa
16:00:23 <ivan> Date: 2018-02-23
16:00:23 <ivan> Regrets+ rachel, yoshii
16:00:23 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2018Feb/0000.html
16:00:24 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2018-02-23: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2018Feb/0000.html
16:00:35 <laudrain> present+ Luc
16:00:58 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:01:20 <George> present+ George
16:01:26 <laudrain> GOTO meeting isn’t open yet…
16:01:34 <dauwhe> there it goes...
16:01:41 <ivan> present+
16:01:42 <dauwhe> present+ dauwhe
16:01:48 <tzviya> present+
16:03:08 <BillM> BillM has joined #pbgsc
16:03:26 <ivan> present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:04:17 <dauwhe> Zakim, who is here?
16:04:17 <Zakim> Present: Bill_Kasdorf, Luc, George, ivan, dauwhe, tzviya
16:04:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see BillM, George, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bill_Kasdorf, laudrain, ivan, dauwhe, tzviya, Karen
16:04:22 <garth> garth has joined #pbgsc
16:04:26 <BillM> present+ BillM
16:04:32 <garth> present+ Garth
16:04:34 <dauwhe> present+ laudrain
16:05:13 <ivan> present+ liisa
16:05:22 <ivan> chair: laudrain
16:05:46 <liisamk_> liisamk_ has joined #pbgsc
16:05:58 <liisamk_> present+ liisamk
16:06:10 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
16:06:28 <dauwhe> laudrain: I trust everyone is receiving emails from the new publishing SC mailing list
16:06:54 <dauwhe> ivan: I updated the charter text, and turned it into proper HTML
16:07:08 <dauwhe> ... on the BG home page, the chairs have been updated
16:07:17 <laudrain> thanks ivan
16:07:30 <dauwhe> ... I have updated the internal database entry for the steering committee so the ML is up to date
16:07:42 <tzviya> q+ to point out that we should have a scribe rotation
16:07:45 <dauwhe> ... it contains all the people on the SC, plus Ralph and Karen
16:08:05 <dauwhe> laudrain: thank you
16:08:34 <dauwhe> ivan: the BG is different, as people can remove themselves
16:09:12 <dauwhe> tzviya: I just wanted to point out that Dave scribes every meeting; we should have a scribe rotation so we take turns
16:09:24 <dauwhe> laudrain: we already tried a chair rotation :)
16:09:37 <ivan> regrets+ RickJ
16:10:00 <dauwhe> laudrain: I sent an agenda; we've started the first topic
16:10:07 <tzviya> q-
16:10:17 <dauwhe> ... are we OK using Github for BG?
16:10:24 <dauwhe> liisamk_: I thought we weren't for the BG
16:10:36 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that's what I thought too
16:10:38 <ivan> q+
16:10:52 <ivan> q-
16:10:53 <dauwhe> laudrain: it should be PBGSC?
16:10:54 <laudrain> ack ivan
16:10:58 <dauwhe> ivan: there are two things
16:11:14 <dauwhe> ... yes, we agreed for BG work, we would use Google Docs but not Github
16:11:19 <tzviya> If we are going to use google docs, let's create a folder so it's easier to keep track
16:11:27 <laudrain> +1
16:11:29 <dauwhe> ... we have had a github repo for a long time, and that can be used in three ways
16:11:37 <dauwhe> ... one is that it has a wiki
16:11:47 <dauwhe> ... available for the SC and the BG
16:11:58 <dauwhe> ... we could use it for SC documents
16:12:13 <dauwhe> ... the same repo now is set up in a way that it produces more flexible public websites
16:12:31 <dauwhe> ... we can add documents that are seen on the web properly, we can keep it more fresh
16:12:47 <dauwhe> ... that's why I set it up--I cloned the PWG web page style
16:13:25 <dauwhe> laudrain: tzviya, you mentioned we should have a folder for google docs?
16:13:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: someone should create a folder, and share the folder with the group. It makes it much easier to keep track
16:13:46 <liisamk_> * to clarify- is the GitHub to help us manage this page and the wiki associated? https://www.w3.org/community/publishingbg/
16:13:54 <dauwhe> ... create a PBG folder, then share the folder with the group
16:14:01 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that sounds good
16:14:03 <garth> q?
16:14:09 <dauwhe> liisamk_: I put a link into IRC
16:14:16 <dauwhe> ... is that the page you're referencing?
16:14:20 <George> q+
16:14:28 <dauwhe> ivan: no, that's the problem. That page is difficult to modify.
16:14:37 <dauwhe> ... it can only be modified by W3T
16:14:38 <ivan> https://w3c.github.io/publ-bg/
16:14:44 <dauwhe> ... what I have is this one ^
16:14:58 <dauwhe> ... that is governed by github; we could put in redirects
16:14:58 <BillM> q+
16:15:09 <dauwhe> liisamk_: can we link this from that page?
16:15:18 <dauwhe> ivan: yes, we can
16:15:40 <dauwhe> liisamk_: we should add to group communications a link to the google docs folder
16:15:55 <dauwhe> laudrain: so this would be the main page for the PBG for all docs
16:16:07 <dauwhe> ... who creates the Google Drive Folder?
16:16:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: anyone can
16:16:32 <dauwhe> BillM: we can get rid of the other publishing page?
16:16:42 <laudrain> ack biilm
16:16:48 <dauwhe> ivan: the old page, I don't know if it can be auto-redirected
16:16:55 <liisamk_> q+
16:17:15 <dauwhe> ... the other possibility is to put a link on the old page, saying this is where we do the real work
16:17:20 <dauwhe> BillM: that's OK
16:17:44 <dauwhe> ... my concern is that if people create a drive folder it may disappear
16:17:54 <dauwhe> ... it might need to be done by a w3c account
16:17:56 <laudrain> +1
16:18:09 <dauwhe> ... what we want is a w3c Google enterprise account
16:19:00 <dauwhe> ivan: the problem is, Google docs cannot be accessed from China
16:19:27 <dauwhe> ... so W3M would be wary of having any official W3C docs that are not available to everyone in the world
16:19:44 <dauwhe> BillM: I'll look into it
16:20:01 <tzviya> q+
16:20:04 <laudrain> ack george
16:20:18 <tzviya> q-
16:20:20 <liisamk_> q-
16:20:21 <dauwhe> George: happily, a11y for Google docs has improved, so now I can read and edit :)
16:20:39 <garth> ack BillM
16:20:39 <laudrain> ack billm
16:20:42 <tzviya> q+
16:20:52 <garth> ack tzviya
16:20:57 <laudrain> ack tzv
16:21:16 <dauwhe> tzviya: until we have an enterprise account, an individual with a stable address could create the folder; then we could switch
16:21:26 <dauwhe> ... I really want to avoid loose documents
16:21:28 <liisamk_> +1 to Tzviya
16:21:41 <dauwhe> liisamk_: I'll set it up
16:21:44 <dauwhe> q?
16:22:20 <dauwhe> laudrain: I've been thinking about the process for the EPUB Road Map task force, with the help of Garth and Dave
16:22:43 <dauwhe> ... the first question is the number of the new release, and the CG has reached consensus on EPUB 3.2
16:23:02 <dauwhe> ... as the SC, do we agree?
16:23:03 <BillM> q+
16:23:06 <garth> q+
16:23:29 <dauwhe> ... and second, do we agree with the overall principles at stake in new revision, such as compatibility with 3.0.1
16:23:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:23:43 <dauwhe> ... do we think it's a good idea to move in this direction?
16:23:47 <dauwhe> q?
16:23:55 <garth> ack BillM
16:23:56 <laudrain> ack billm
16:24:01 <dauwhe> BillM: point of order, the new SC no longer has decision making powers
16:24:10 <dauwhe> ... the question should be posed to the BG on Tuesday
16:24:33 <dauwhe> ... this group should restrict itself to figuring out what tasks belong to what groups, and to work on agenda for BG
16:24:50 <dauwhe> garth: I'm pro 3.2 and I vote
16:24:51 <laudrain> ack garth
16:25:04 <liisamk_> q+
16:25:14 <dauwhe> ... I think the task force should meet quickly
16:25:21 <dauwhe> BillM: maybe a meeting isn't even needed
16:25:30 <dauwhe> garth: we did form a task force, we should actually have a meeting :)
16:25:43 <dauwhe> ... we can bring it to the BG, and hopefully they will bless us
16:25:46 <laudrain> ack liisamk_
16:25:53 <dauwhe> liisamk_: do we have any sense that anyone will push back
16:26:09 <laudrain> q+
16:27:17 <dauwhe> garth: makoto is pushing this
16:28:01 <laudrain> Dave: consensus in CG Over 3.2
16:28:37 <laudrain> … probably technical disputes, natural anf healthy
16:28:41 <tzviya> q?
16:28:55 <garth> ack laudrain
16:28:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: the ISO question was discussed with Makoto, and 3.2 is OK
16:29:00 <laudrain> ack lau
16:29:14 <dauwhe> George: Makoto is good with this, and it will trigger EPUB a11y 1.1 work to move forward
16:29:29 <dauwhe> ... I spoke to Avneesh earlier; he will email people to start
16:30:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: the idea is to set up a call for the road map task force, to present this plan to BG on Tuesday, and announce on Tuesday that the task force would meet next Thursday
16:30:19 <dauwhe> ... it would hopefully adopt the overall idea of 3.2
16:30:29 <dauwhe> ... and ask for the CG to proceed
16:30:41 <dauwhe> ... the next step is that the CG does its work
16:30:49 <dauwhe> ... and as Dave said, disputes on tech details :)
16:31:06 <dauwhe> ... and after a certain amount of time, there would be a new 3.2 spec adopted by CG
16:31:09 <dauwhe> q+
16:31:18 <dauwhe> ... as a BG we need to endorse this spec
16:31:49 <dauwhe> ... we will have discussions, and then if we agree as a BG we could have something like a CR
16:32:21 <dauwhe> ... and when this last call for consensus is made, then I don't know if formal objections could be made
16:32:42 <dauwhe> ... then this new spec would have a status -- community group note? But it would be the official latest version of EPUB
16:33:10 <garth> ack dauwhe
16:33:28 <laudrain> ack Dave
16:33:29 <laudrain> Dave: first EPUB spec under W3C
16:33:50 <laudrain> … so do good job more than quick work
16:34:05 <garth> q+
16:34:05 <laudrain> … see Jiminy issues in ecxisting spec
16:34:06 <dauwhe> garth: I would love to see real progress by Berlin
16:34:08 <dauwhe> ack dau
16:34:13 <tzviya> +1000, dauwhe
16:34:21 <laudrain> ack gart
16:34:22 <dauwhe> dauwhe: we should do good work, and deal with interop
16:34:51 <dauwhe> garth: I think it's important to have progress in a post-merger world
16:35:31 <dauwhe> ivan: the point of Dave is that this is the first time we publish something as w3c, so we should do it well
16:35:51 <dauwhe> dauwhe: it is a community group note
16:35:55 <dauwhe> ivan: that is correct
16:36:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: any comments?
16:36:04 <dauwhe> q?
16:36:22 <dauwhe> ... that's the plan, we should explain this in the next BG meeting, and have a call of the task force
16:36:46 <dauwhe> ... we cover the numbering, the principles, the rationale.
16:37:02 <liisamk_> q+
16:37:02 <dauwhe> ... any objections of a call on Thursday, March 1?
16:39:07 <liisamk_> q-
16:39:11 <dauwhe> liisamk_: you could announce today that it's on tuesday :)
16:39:28 <dauwhe> laudrain: that's Tuesday, February 27
16:39:39 <dauwhe> garth: could we do before the BG call?
16:39:57 <dauwhe> ... a way to move faster
16:40:00 <liisamk_> +1 to moving faster
16:40:00 <tzviya> it is probably better for Japan too
16:40:18 <dauwhe> garth: I could do 9 or 10 EST that day
16:40:55 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbgsc
16:40:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: 10am in NYC?
16:41:11 <dauwhe> ivan: who should be there?
16:41:19 <dauwhe> garth: people signed up for the task force in the doc
16:41:24 <dauwhe> George: which task force?
16:41:28 <dauwhe> laudrain: EPUB 3 road map
16:41:45 <dauwhe> BillM: I can recommend that you send an email to entire BG, with a [header]
16:42:07 <liisamk_> * liisamk thinks Bill has been eaten by the machine
16:42:18 <dauwhe> q?
16:42:37 <dauwhe> laudrain: I see dave, garth, tzviya, julian, rick, matteus, and makoto
16:42:52 <dauwhe> ... it will be hard for Makoto
16:42:57 <dauwhe> garth: I can be his proxy :)
16:43:21 <dauwhe> laudrain: Topic: A11y task force
16:43:32 <dauwhe> George: we have the a11y guidelines from IDPF
16:43:36 <dauwhe> ... done by MG
16:43:43 <dauwhe> ... they have not been updated
16:43:54 <dauwhe> ... we now have the ACE knowledgebase
16:44:02 <dauwhe> ... so we're trying to maintain two sets of guidelines
16:44:16 <dauwhe> ... we would like to either redirect that URL to the ACE kb
16:44:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:44:28 <dauwhe> ... or put a link at the beginning saying it's no longer maintained
16:44:33 <dauwhe> ... but we can't update the old site
16:44:53 <dauwhe> ... so we're asking the SC to endorse one of those approaches
16:45:01 <dauwhe> ... and put that to the BG for consensus
16:45:21 <dauwhe> ivan: I was not sure I understood
16:45:32 <dauwhe> George: this is IDPF guidelines, so this is BG
16:46:04 <dauwhe> BillM: maintenance of idpf website is a w3t issue
16:46:14 <dauwhe> ... we can obsolete and point to latest information
16:46:21 <dauwhe> ... I assume you don't want to host on w3c
16:46:39 <tzviya> https://idpf.github.io/a11y-guidelines/ this is the outdated site in question
16:47:05 <dauwhe> George: DAISY had matt write the O'Reilly book, and the guidelines were extracted from the book
16:47:29 <dauwhe> ... if we want to move stuff to w3c in the future, that'd be great, but for now pointing to the KB is what we should achieve
16:47:31 <laudrain> q?
16:47:34 <tzviya> q+
16:47:38 <dauwhe> billm: who owns the copyright?
16:47:52 <dauwhe> ... are they IDPF copyright?
16:48:07 <dauwhe> George: they're on the idpf website, so I think it's idpf copyright
16:48:20 <tzviya> it is IDPF Copyright
16:48:44 <dauwhe> BillM: so you might need rights from IDPF
16:49:16 <dauwhe> George: I don't know.
16:49:36 <dauwhe> ... the ideas are based on W3C WCAG standards, and point to them
16:49:43 <dauwhe> ... the ideas originate with W3C
16:50:02 <dauwhe> ... I don't know if there was any exact language that was taken from the IDPF website
16:50:09 <dauwhe> ... I'll check with Matt
16:50:33 <laudrain> ack Bill_K
16:50:51 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I'm not clear how this discussion relates to EPUB a11y 1.0
16:51:07 <dauwhe> ... I hope we're not talking about abandoning that
16:51:10 <laudrain> +1
16:51:13 <tzviya> it's also available at https://www.w3.org/Submission/2017/SUBM-epub-a11y-20170125/
16:51:15 <dauwhe> George: no, we're not abandoning it
16:51:36 <dauwhe> ... and with EPUB 3.2, we're going to update EPUB a11y to version 1.1, and submit to ISO
16:51:43 <dauwhe> laudrain: tzviya put up a link to this doc
16:51:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: about transferring the daisy KB
16:51:58 <laudrain> ack Tzv
16:52:02 <dauwhe> ... w3c doesn't do documentation like this
16:52:11 <dauwhe> ... I had a conversation with Matt about that
16:52:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:52:33 <dauwhe> ... Dan Applequest of TAG suggested some of this move to MDN
16:53:02 <dauwhe> ... aside from issues of copyright, he pointed out that most of what's in Daisy KB is mostly not epub-specific; it's best practices on writing HTML
16:53:16 <dauwhe> ... we could call it w3c accessible publishing documentaiton
16:53:23 <dauwhe> ... the w3c doesn't have a logical home for this
16:53:35 <dauwhe> George: DAISY would be happy to move to w3c space whenever appropriate
16:53:36 <ivan> s/documentaiton/documentation/
16:53:43 <laudrain> ack Bill_K
16:53:54 <tzviya> s/Applequest/Applequist
16:54:00 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: thanks for pointing out that epub a11y has been moved as member submission
16:54:17 <dauwhe> ... what should we do about the idpf guidelines? people are linking to it.
16:54:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: how do we move forward?
16:55:13 <dauwhe> George: I'll talk to Matt, and have him check with BillM about © issues
16:55:30 <dauwhe> laudrain: there is also the a11y techniques doc
16:56:04 <dauwhe> https://w3c.github.io/publ-cg/guides/epub-a11y-faq.html
16:56:31 <dauwhe> George: there's the techniques doc, which should be moved
16:57:02 <dauwhe> laudrain: the link to the techniques in the EPUB a11y points to IDPF website
16:57:16 <dauwhe> George: maybe we should bring that to the CG
16:57:20 <dauwhe> laudrain: that's good
16:57:49 <dauwhe> laudrain: anything else we should think about? Is it clear?
16:57:59 <dauwhe> George: so this will become an agenda item for the BG
16:58:29 <dauwhe> BillM: the roadmap task force should think about where the 3.2 note goes
16:59:00 <dauwhe> laudrain: the hour has been exhausted :)
16:59:25 <dauwhe> laudrain: have we settled how often we have a call?
16:59:36 <dauwhe> BillM: can someone send an email to the BG with an agenda?
16:59:56 <dauwhe> liisamk_: let's do agenda via email after this call
17:00:06 <dauwhe> ... important thing is to get announcement about task force
17:00:18 <dauwhe> BillM: and let's not forget epubcheck financing
17:03:09 <BillM> BillM has left #pbgsc
17:03:11 <laudrain> laudrain has left #pbgsc
17:03:45 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/23-pbgsc-minutes.html ivan