20:53:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:53:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-irc
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20:53:36 <SimonCox> chair SimonCox
20:53:40 <SimonCox> present+
20:56:19 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
20:56:31 <PWinstanley> present+
20:57:33 <SimonCox> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.02.14
20:57:47 <arminhaller> arminhaller has joined #dxwgdcat
20:58:13 <SimonCox> minutes of last meeting: https://www.w3.org/2018/02/07-dxwgdcat-minutes
20:58:51 <SimonCox> chair: SimonCox
20:59:05 <SimonCox> meeting: DXWG DCAT team
20:59:45 <SimonCox> scribenick: arminhaller
21:00:11 <SimonCox> audio PWinstanley ??
21:02:04 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> Stijn_Goedertier_AIV has joined #dxwgdcat
21:02:39 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:23 <NicholasCar> NicholasCar has joined #dxwgdcat
21:03:37 <NicholasCar> present+
21:04:10 <arminhaller> present+
21:04:15 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> present +
21:04:27 <DaveBrowning>  present+
21:04:31 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Jaroslav_Pullmann has joined #dxwgdcat
21:05:13 <arminhaller> topic: Confirm agenda
21:05:13 <SimonCox> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:DCAT-Telecon2018.02.14
21:05:31 <arminhaller> topic: Approve minutes from last meeting – https://www.w3.org/2018/02/07-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:06:34 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> +1
21:06:35 <SimonCox> +1
21:06:36 <arminhaller> 0 - wasn't there
21:06:40 <PWinstanley> 0
21:06:48 <DaveBrowning> 0 not there
21:06:49 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:07:08 <arminhaller> Resolved: Minutes approved
21:07:18 <arminhaller> topic: Actions from last meeting
21:07:28 <arminhaller> topic: - Review of Requirements in GitHub issue tracker - https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Adcat+label%3Arequirement
21:08:03 <alejandra> alejandra has joined #dxwgdcat
21:08:10 <alejandra> present+
21:08:12 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:08:19 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+label%3Adcat+is%3Aclosed+
21:08:21 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
21:08:54 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed
21:09:31 <SimonCox> s/waives/waves/
21:09:52 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:09:54 <arminhaller> SimonCox: points to closed issues and pull requests
21:10:01 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q-
21:10:03 <RiccardoAlbertoni> RiccardoAlbertoni has joined #dxwgdcat
21:10:14 <SimonCox> topic: Global constraints - Relax global domain axioms on many dcat properties https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/110
21:10:14 <arminhaller> topic: Pull requests resulting from last meeting’s resolutions - https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/pulls
21:10:29 <Makx> Makx has joined #dxwgdcat
21:10:46 <Makx> presnt+ Makx
21:10:52 <Makx> present+ Makx
21:11:09 <RiccardoAlbertoni> present+ RiccardoAlbertoni
21:13:58 <SimonCox> q?
21:14:10 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:14:13 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:14:14 <alejandra> q+
21:14:17 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:14:27 <arminhaller> SimonCox: Comments on the proposal from Max on global constraints
21:15:02 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Will tooling support be hindered by removal of global axioms?
21:15:02 <SimonCox> q+
21:15:19 <SimonCox> ack DaveBrowning
21:15:23 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: Autocomplete in WebProtege may not work?
21:16:19 <arminhaller> DaveBrowning: Agree with the approach. More explanatory text is needed. Having the domains there helps to give context, so if we remove them, we need to be more explicit in the descriptions.
21:16:23 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
21:16:31 <arminhaller> +1 on better annotations
21:16:42 <Makx> +1 for annotations
21:17:44 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1 for usage of profiles instead
21:17:51 <arminhaller> alejandra: Agree with removing global constraints. 2 Questions? Do we need to link to this to a requirement? Any of those restrictions could potentially be added for profiles.
21:18:07 <arminhaller> q?
21:18:10 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:18:51 <AndreaPerego> Adding a use case + req makes perfect sense to me.
21:19:14 <arminhaller> SimonCox: Comment around Protege. Protege and the RDF editors are to be used at the design phase. When people create records, they most likely don't use Protege.
21:19:29 <AndreaPerego> Agree with SimonCox
21:19:34 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:19:52 <arminhaller> ... I would downplay the importance of editors for these users.
21:19:53 <SimonCox> ack jar
21:19:55 <arminhaller> q+
21:19:58 <SimonCox> ack jaro
21:20:03 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:20:10 <RiccardoAlbertoni> +1 to SimonCox
21:20:34 <SimonCox> q?
21:20:49 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: I am convinced now that users will not use editors to create instances.
21:21:15 <arminhaller> ... profiles are auxiliary documents for documenting if we remove global constraints
21:21:16 <PWinstanley> My colleagues use DCAT for query to get data.  http://data.sepa.org.uk/metadata/datacatalog.html - these sort of applications might involve reasoning
21:21:23 <SimonCox> ack arminhaller
21:22:00 <SimonCox> arminhaller: there are tools that use domain and range - form generation tools, but also use guarded restrictions, could use both of those;
21:22:22 <SimonCox> ... if remove domain/ange, replace with guarded restrictions
21:22:43 <SimonCox> q?
21:23:44 <arminhaller> SimonCox: Let's address alejandra's question around the requirements
21:23:55 <AndreaPerego> +1 to add use case + req as suggested by alejandra
21:24:16 <alejandra> plus we need an analysis of the impact this change would have: in terms of tooling and reasoning
21:24:17 <PWinstanley> +1 to AndreaPerego
21:24:57 <arminhaller> +1 to AndreaPerego, adding a use case with the issue on dcat:contactPoint
21:25:22 <arminhaller> alejandra: Removing it from the main vocabulary, but add it as a profile, for example.
21:26:20 <arminhaller> q+
21:26:25 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:26:26 <SimonCox> ack arminhaller
21:26:57 <alejandra> +q
21:27:05 <SimonCox> q+
21:27:11 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
21:27:13 <alejandra> q-
21:27:30 <alejandra> In the case of contactPoint, Andrea did present a specific use case: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/95
21:27:50 <SimonCox> Makx proposes retain domain restriction on For dcat:Catalog: dcat:dataset, dcat:record For dcat:Dataset: dcat:distribution For dcat:Distribution: dcat:accessURL, dcat:downloadURL
21:28:06 <SimonCox> see https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/110#issuecomment-365526268
21:28:12 <arminhaller> ArminHaller: Maybe replace all global constraints and replace it with local restrictions that capture the intent of the original authors of DCAT and then move forward from there.
21:29:05 <alejandra> +1 to reviewing one by one
21:29:06 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: Look at the use cases and see which properties we need to remove global constraints.
21:30:04 <arminhaller> ... tools that use domain and range restrictions use it in hard-coded way. They may not work any longer.
21:30:29 <RiccardoAlbertoni> +1 to consider the dropping following a case by case approach as andrea is suggesting..
21:30:36 <SimonCox> q?
21:30:37 <arminhaller> ... it is worth asking people who use tools if the removal would impact their implementation.
21:30:42 <arminhaller> ack SimonCox
21:30:45 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:31:39 <arminhaller> SimonCox: back off from having a resolution today on that issue. There needs to be a use case contributed (although that is a modelling issue).
21:31:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> we have some meta-use cases within the UCR document, so a new UC would be fine
21:32:08 <arminhaller> ... we have a need to give people the ability to respond to a potential removal of domain/range restrictions
21:32:23 <arminhaller> ... create an issue per property and have a discussion on a case by case basis
21:32:37 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:32:42 <arminhaller> +1
21:32:45 <RiccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:32:46 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:32:54 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:33:03 <SimonCox> q?
21:33:08 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:33:36 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: the process you suggested makes sense. We have examples of meta modelling use cases already.
21:33:48 <arminhaller> ... provide a motivation out of the arguments you have provided
21:33:56 <SimonCox> q?
21:34:56 <arminhaller> ... add guidance on the usage on properties where we remove global restrictions
21:35:50 <arminhaller> ACTION: SimonCox to include issues for each property that uses global domain/range restrictions
21:35:50 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:36:08 <SimonCox> Action: SimonCox and Jaroslav_Pullmann to create meta-use-case
21:36:08 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:36:10 <alejandra> For contactPoint there was a specific example from GeoDCAT-AP that Andrea discussed in the issue: https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/95
21:36:22 <AndreaPerego> trackbot, associate this channel with #dxwg
21:36:26 <alejandra> it would be good to find similar motivation for further changes in other properties
21:36:28 <SimonCox> Action: SimonCox to create set of issues per dcat:property
21:36:28 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:36:50 <arminhaller> ACTION: Jaroslav_Pullmann to create a use case that explains the meta modelling requirement for domain/range restrictions on the dcat:ContacPoint
21:36:50 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:37:16 <SimonCox> see Local constraints - Use owl:Restriction constraints to bind DC properties to DCAT classes https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/105
21:37:19 <SimonCox> for related issue
21:37:33 <arminhaller> topic: Local constraints - Use owl:Restriction constraints to bind DC properties to DCAT classes https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/105
21:37:50 <arminhaller> we discussed this in the context of the above
21:37:59 <arminhaller> topic: Dependencies – continue discussion from https://www.w3.org/2018/01/31-dxwgdcat-minutes#x06 and https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/111
21:38:02 <SimonCox> topic: Dependencies – continue discussion from https://www.w3.org/2018/01/31-dxwgdcat-minutes#x06 and https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/111
21:38:50 <arminhaller> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:39:57 <arminhaller> SimonCox: DCAT has dependencies on several ontologies, e.g. DC-Terms, SKOS, FOAF, potentially PROV in the future
21:40:24 <arminhaller> ... only SKOS and vCard are W3C standards
21:40:45 <arminhaller> ... and PROV, if we add it, but the others are popular vocabularies on the Web
21:41:01 <arminhaller> ... including them introduces risks, but also efficiencies if they are used
21:41:47 <SimonCox> q?
21:42:03 <arminhaller> ... NickCar and Makx have asked if there are more opinions on that issues
21:42:20 <arminhaller> s/NickCar/NicholasCar
21:42:20 <NicholasCar> +q
21:42:48 <arminhaller> ... another questions was around the ORG ontology and a Person ontology (which I am not familiar with)
21:42:54 <PWinstanley> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/page/core-vocabularies
21:43:22 <arminhaller> ... if we adopt PROV, the agent class is potentially replicated
21:43:31 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> Nicholas, what is the rationale of including org-ontology?
21:43:33 <AndreaPerego> ISA Core Person Vocabulary: https://www.w3.org/ns/person
21:43:35 <SimonCox> q?
21:43:40 <SimonCox> ack NicholasCar
21:43:41 <arminhaller> ... we may end up with some axiomatization that is not intended
21:44:08 <Makx> Yes it's the W3C one https://www.w3.org/ns/person
21:44:51 <arminhaller> NicholasCar: reusing old ontologies may be a problem in regards to what happened in the meantime. Dublin Core, in particular.
21:45:00 <SimonCox> org, prov, person, foaf all have agent-ish classes and do not necessarily have clear relationships
21:45:06 <SimonCox> also vCard implicitly
21:45:20 <arminhaller> NicholasCar: For ORG, we may want a better handling of groups which is not done in FOAF
21:45:37 <SimonCox> q+
21:45:42 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:45:48 <arminhaller> ... broader set of metadata available if we allow a more sophisticated agent handling
21:45:59 <arminhaller> +1 for NicholasCar for a better agent handling allowing groups
21:46:36 <Makx> No need for change in DCAT I think. org:Organization is a subclass of foaf:Agent anyway.
21:46:50 <arminhaller> SimonCox: One of the modelling solutions is to define a local agent class and describe its relations to external vocabularies
21:47:09 <SimonCox> q?
21:47:14 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:47:15 <arminhaller> ack SimonCox
21:47:16 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
21:47:19 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
21:47:22 <alejandra> +q
21:47:51 <Makx> It seems to me that foaf:Agent/dct:Agent are broad enough.
21:48:19 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: In our case we associate the authors to the Dataset. We need to assign the affiliations of the authors. We can't do that in FOAF, so we use the ORG ontology.
21:48:31 <SimonCox> q+
21:49:24 <arminhaller> ... metadata coming from CrossRef, for example, we add this metadata using the external vocabularies
21:49:54 <Makx> I think it is perfectly fine to describe a foaf:Agent with properties from ORG
21:50:00 <arminhaller> ... if we have a tool that only understands FOAF, for example, everything that is related to ORG, it will be ignored
21:50:02 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
21:50:44 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: We looked at the ORG ontology, but we had a hard time to see the extra benefit of the ORG ontology.
21:51:07 <SimonCox> ack alejandra
21:51:13 <arminhaller> ... we don't need to import
21:51:26 <AndreaPerego> The ORG property I mentioned to specify affiliation is https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org/#property-memberof
21:51:29 <arminhaller> alejandra: Agree to not importing the whole ontology.
21:51:31 <arminhaller> q+
21:52:27 <arminhaller> alejandra: we should use what we need from ontologies, but be minimal and not use a local class.
21:52:41 <SimonCox> ack SimonCox
21:53:33 <Makx> I fail to see the problem here. DCAT only declares the range of one of its properties to be a foaf:Agent. Nowhere is it said that you can only use FOAF properties to describe a foaf:Agent.
21:53:35 <arminhaller> SimonCox: the ORG ontology's primary functions are organisational history and structure
21:53:55 <arminhaller> ... the tricky one will be PROV-O. with the agent class
21:54:02 <NicholasCar> Agree with just using ORG where needed if foaf:Agent already used
21:54:14 <SimonCox> ack arminhaller
21:54:17 <SimonCox> q?
21:54:18 <Makx> DCAT actually says nothing about how to describe agents.
21:54:23 <NicholasCar> Agree too that PROV Agent more difficult
21:55:10 <SimonCox> arminhaller: need to make clear that dcat classes and properties are consistent with the other W3C ontologies
21:55:16 <SimonCox> q?
21:56:13 <arminhaller> PROPOSED: The preference as a general rule will be not to import ontologies
21:56:21 <RiccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:56:22 <arminhaller> +1
21:56:22 <alejandra> +1
21:56:22 <SimonCox> +1
21:56:23 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:56:29 <Stijn_Goedertier_AIV> +1
21:56:30 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> +1
21:56:32 <NicholasCar> +1
21:56:32 <DaveBrowning>  +1
21:56:36 <arminhaller> RESOLVED: The preference as a general rule will be not to import ontologies
21:56:39 <PWinstanley> +1
21:56:55 <Makx> +1
21:57:28 <NicholasCar> I import in Protege for dev then delete imports before publication!
21:57:31 <SimonCox> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/53
21:59:07 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:59:30 <arminhaller> SimonCox: I have dominated the agenda so far, I am inviting members to use the mailing list to propose topics
22:00:15 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:00:29 <SimonCox> ack AndreaPerego
22:00:35 <arminhaller> ... there was a lot of discussion on versioning earlier, maybe someone from that set of people can propose an agenda item
22:01:43 <arminhaller> AndreaPerego: Another issue, I want to raise an issue if we can use DCAT terms also for Catalogs or other data sources, not only dcat:Dataset
22:01:51 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> q+
22:02:07 <SimonCox> ack Jaroslav_Pullmann
22:02:11 <arminhaller> ... other type of resources should be supported other than datasets
22:02:14 <SimonCox> q?
22:02:54 <arminhaller> Jaroslav_Pullmann: There are comments on the UCR document, the dynamic access to data, paramaterialised arrays. we need to look at those.
22:03:08 <SimonCox> q?
22:03:12 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> s/arrays/URIs/
22:03:13 <arminhaller> RRSAgent, make logs public
22:03:19 <arminhaller> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-minutes.html arminhaller
22:03:36 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> bye
22:03:39 <alejandra> thanks, and bye!
22:03:39 <AndreaPerego> Thanks, and bye!
22:03:40 <Jaroslav_Pullmann> present-
22:03:40 <RiccardoAlbertoni> Thanks for the interesting discussion,  bye
22:03:48 <PWinstanley> bye
22:03:51 <Makx> bye
22:21:56 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
22:22:15 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:22:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:22:40 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world
22:22:42 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:22:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:24:29 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
22:24:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/02/14-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:24:56 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, make logs world