18:01:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
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18:01:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:01:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
18:01:16 <trackbot> Date: 21 November 2017
18:01:16 <tantek> present+
18:01:21 <tantek> chair: tantek
18:01:28 <tantek> present+ sandro
18:02:23 <aaronpk> present+
18:03:16 <eprodrom> present+
18:03:49 <ajordan> preent+
18:03:49 <ajordan> dialing in presently
18:04:03 <cwebber2> present+
18:04:43 <tsyesika> present+
18:04:47 <csarven> present+
18:05:23 <sandro> scribe: sandro
18:05:41 <tantek> review https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-11-14-minutes
18:05:51 <sandro> topic: review minutes
18:06:38 <ajordan> anyone know who UNKNOWN_SPEAKER was?
18:06:47 <eprodrom> I think by definition no
18:07:06 <eprodrom> ajordan: pretty sure that's me
18:07:10 <cwebber2> +1
18:07:51 <eprodrom> ajordan: updated
18:07:53 <eprodrom> +1
18:08:00 <ajordan> eprodrom++
18:08:00 <Loqi> eprodrom has 51 karma in this channel (52 overall)
18:08:05 <ajordan> +1
18:08:07 <eprodrom> \o/
18:08:32 <tantek> PROPOSED approve last week minutes: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-11-14-minutes
18:08:42 <ajordan> +1
18:08:52 <sandro> +1
18:08:58 <eprodrom> +1
18:09:01 <aaronpk> +1
18:09:18 <cwebber2> +1
18:09:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
18:09:26 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2017/11/21-social-irc#T18-09-26
18:09:27 <tantek> present- hadleybeeman
18:09:30 <aaronpk> Zakim gtfo
18:09:34 <tantek> present- snarfed
18:09:39 <flackr> flackr has left #social
18:09:41 <tantek> present- torgo
18:09:47 <tantek> present -bengo
18:09:56 <tantek> present- get-webmention-url@1.0.0
18:09:59 <tantek> present- +
18:10:02 <Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2017-11-14-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=105250&oldid=105216
18:10:04 <tantek> zakim, who is here?
18:10:04 <Zakim> Present: tantek, cwebber, npdoty, annbass, rhiaro, ajordan, eprodrom, aaronpk, bengo, sandro, tsyesika, csarven
18:10:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, bengo, cdchapman, eprodrom, DenSchub, xmpp-social, htrobinson, dlongley, JanKusanagi, dlehn, bwn, sandro, rhiaro, distopico, Loqi, sknebel, ajordan,
18:10:07 <Zakim> ... csarven, KjetilK, hadleybeeman, Zakim, Chocobozzz, aaronpk, er1n, cwebber2, jungkees, raucao, saranix, erincandescent, jet, ben_thatmustbeme, Gargron, melody, mattl,
18:10:07 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, surinna, bitbear, howl, dwhly, tsyesika, nightpool, trackbot, puckipedia
18:10:32 <sandro> (chair does "Present-" on all the folks who are listed as Present by Zakim from TPAC, but are not actually on today's call)
18:10:53 <tantek> present- npdoty
18:10:57 <tantek> present- annbass
18:11:08 <tantek> zakim, who is here?
18:11:08 <Zakim> Present: tantek, cwebber, rhiaro, ajordan, eprodrom, aaronpk, bengo, sandro, tsyesika, csarven
18:11:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, tantek, bengo, cdchapman, eprodrom, DenSchub, xmpp-social, htrobinson, dlongley, JanKusanagi, dlehn, bwn, sandro, rhiaro, distopico, Loqi, sknebel, ajordan,
18:11:10 <Zakim> ... csarven, KjetilK, hadleybeeman, Zakim, Chocobozzz, aaronpk, er1n, cwebber2, jungkees, raucao, saranix, erincandescent, jet, ben_thatmustbeme, Gargron, melody, mattl,
18:11:10 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, surinna, bitbear, howl, dwhly, tsyesika, nightpool, trackbot, puckipedia
18:11:51 <eprodrom> rhiaro: you are having a hard time with this
18:12:32 <tantek> RESOLVED approve last week minutes: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2017-11-14-minutes
18:12:33 <eprodrom> rhiaro: I think you're IRC-only this week
18:12:47 <eprodrom> q+
18:12:55 <tantek> ack eprodrom
18:14:27 <ajordan> o/
18:14:32 <sandro> (discussion of agenda timing)
18:15:25 <sandro> ajordan, you here but need to leave at the hour?
18:15:33 <ajordan> sandro: correct
18:15:45 <ajordan> I have class then
18:16:11 <sandro> topic: websub issues
18:16:24 <sandro> aaronpk: I made it through the issues, all editorial
18:16:27 <tantek> tl;dr: websub til 10:45, then ap as needed
18:16:34 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/142
18:16:35 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #142 use of Link header
18:17:00 <sandro> aaronpk: Commenter said he's suprised Link header is used in Request.  Typically in response.
18:17:32 <sandro> aaronpk: I replied I didn't know why it wouldn't be, and this is how PuSH has worked for a long time
18:18:06 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec5.html#sec5.3
18:18:12 <eprodrom> Not listed there I don't think
18:18:49 <sandro> sandro: mnot told it's fine
18:19:00 <eprodrom> Not here either https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec4.html#sec4.5
18:19:03 <eprodrom> Gotcha
18:19:10 <tantek> q?
18:19:11 <cwebber2> +1 to supporting Location in the Request
18:19:22 <eprodrom> Fair point
18:19:38 <aaronpk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988
18:19:51 <eprodrom> "Invalidated by https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8288 !"
18:20:15 <sandro> sandro: as I recall, he explained yes, you can use Link headers on requests.  It's not specified in the RFC, which means both.
18:20:18 <rowan> rowan has joined #social
18:20:54 <eprodrom> This is surprisingly complicated
18:21:06 <ajordan> lol too real
18:21:21 <aaronpk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8288#appendix-C
18:21:34 <eprodrom> "    This specification updates the "Message Headers" registry entry for    "Link" in HTTP [RFC3864] to refer to this document."
18:22:36 <sandro> aaronpk, skimming https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8288#page-24 I don't see any problems
18:22:50 <sandro> sandro: me neither.   Do we use the "target IRI" terminology
18:22:55 <sandro> aaronpk: I don't thiknk we use either
18:23:02 <sandro> s/pk,/pk:/
18:24:11 <sandro> aaronpk: Did something relevant in the link registry change?
18:25:28 <sandro> tantek: Let's not change the reference if that doesn't solve the issue
18:25:47 <sandro> evan: I don't have an opinion
18:27:58 <aaronpk> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-5
18:28:09 <sandro> aaronpk: that does list request headers
18:28:47 <sandro> and Link header doesn't show up there
18:29:38 <sandro> sandro: That list is not supposed to be exhaustive.   Link header isn't listed either?
18:30:08 <sandro> aaronpk: It's not listed among response headers
18:30:23 <sandro> tantek: It's not disallowed
18:30:57 <sandro> eprodrom: Can we ask the authors?
18:31:15 <sandro> sandro: Yes, I did, and he said it was fine.   (like 7 years ago)
18:31:38 <sandro> sandro: (but I don't see that email)
18:31:40 <eprodrom> I think we can actually summon @mnot to the issue if we want
18:32:38 <sandro> tantek: Do we need to add a note to the spec?
18:32:40 <tantek> PROPOSED: resolve 142 with comment that LINK header is not disallowed by 7231 or 5988, and informally, the author of 5988 (Web Linking) intended it to be allowed.
18:32:45 <cwebber2> +1
18:32:51 <sandro> eprodrom: No, it's fine, given this discussion
18:32:53 <ajordan> +1
18:33:00 <sandro> +1
18:33:07 <aaronpk> +1
18:33:17 <sandro> tantek: And we can ask the commenter if they want a clarifying note added to the spec
18:33:25 <tsyesika> +1
18:33:30 <tantek> RESOLVED: resolve 142 with comment that LINK header is not disallowed by 7231 or 5988, and informally, the author of 5988 (Web Linking) intended it to be allowed.
18:33:32 <eprodrom> +
18:33:33 <eprodrom> +1
18:33:42 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/138
18:33:43 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #138 different hub for same topic if denied
18:34:01 <aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/#subscription-validation
18:34:39 <sandro> aaronpk: This is about Location header on request
18:35:01 <sandro> .. I think this is something WebSub is defining
18:35:08 <sandro> .. this is a Separate Feature
18:35:21 <sandro> .. using the Location header to say your subscription was denied, but you can try using this other URL
18:35:54 <eprodrom>   julien-aaronpk.json
18:36:10 <eprodrom> julien-eprodrom.json
18:36:35 <sandro> eprodrom: I think the idea would be, you ask for one, a capabilities URL, and you get a different one
18:37:02 <sandro> sandro: or is this conneg?   or no, that would be Content Location
18:37:09 <sandro> sandro: is this in the test suite
18:37:18 <sandro> aaronpk: I accidentally overlooked it
18:37:42 <sandro> eprodrom: This was thrown in a long time ago.  I've never seen this implemented.
18:38:40 <sandro> aaronpk: julien says he knows this was used once but he's not seen it in ages
18:38:50 <sandro> sandro: so this is for access controlled URLs?
18:38:57 <sandro> eprodrom: yeah
18:39:14 <sandro> aaronpk: github.com example in issue
18:39:35 <sandro> tantek: we don't know if anyone has implemented this
18:40:31 <sandro> aaronpk: It's a MAY, not in conformance criteria
18:40:45 <aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/#subscription-validation
18:40:53 <sandro> tantek: it's not unusual to omit MAY's
18:41:22 <sandro> "Hubs may provide an additional HTTP [RFC7231] Location header (as described in section 7.1.2 of Hypertext Transfer Protocol [RFC7231]) to indicate that the subscriber may retry subscribing to a different hub.topic. This allows for limited distribution to specific groups or users in the context of social web applications."
18:42:00 <sandro> sandro: Can we try hard to find out if anyone cares?
18:42:25 <ajordan> q+
18:42:52 <sandro> sandro: it's kind of a back-door MUST on the subscriber library, as worded.
18:43:17 <sandro> sandro: I think it'll be easier to drop if we can find evidence no one has implemted it
18:43:26 <sandro> aaronpk: impl rep fro twitch.tv
18:43:32 <ajordan> sandro: it seems backwards-compatible to me despite the quasi-MUST?
18:44:10 <sandro> sandro: aaronpk can you ask everyone who has filed an impl report
18:45:24 <sandro> tantek: Okay, that's the best we can do for now
18:45:28 <sandro> topic: ActivityPub
18:45:54 <cwebber2> https://activitypub.rocks/implementation-report/
18:45:57 <sandro> cwebber2: We're doing really well
18:46:07 <sandro> cwebber2: 8 impls, 2+ yes on every item
18:46:11 <cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues
18:46:18 <sandro> .. no open issues
18:46:19 <cwebber2> https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-31-october-14-november
18:46:53 <sandro> .. relaxed from SHOULD to MAY on Liked property
18:46:59 <eprodrom> q+
18:47:03 <ajordan> a-
18:47:06 <ajordan> q-
18:47:06 <sandro> .. which we've had be a non-restart change
18:47:36 <sandro> .. also ld+json type thing, as in AS2
18:48:03 <sandro> .. also Forwarding mechanism, said you need to remove bcc
18:48:11 <sandro> (but that never occurs)
18:48:40 <sandro> .. no need to say what's stored
18:49:00 <sandro> .. those are all non-normative changes
18:49:21 <sandro> .. That's everything
18:49:49 <tantek> q?
18:49:54 <sandro> tantek: any comments/questions on changes?
18:50:01 <tantek> ack eprodrom
18:50:53 <sandro> eprodrom: the only change that's a bit challenging is the "Liked" property, which was a SHOULD in one spot and MAY in the more detailed spot, so we just resolved it to a MAY.  It was an error in previous version.
18:51:08 <sandro> tantek: good to clarify in change long, that you made it consistent
18:52:02 <cwebber2> q?
18:53:47 <sandro> sandro: column for number-of-yes's which turns green when it's 2 or more
18:53:52 <sandro> cwebber2: sure
18:54:54 <sandro> tantek: we had empty cells in websub report
18:55:02 <sandro> +1 lets vote
18:55:07 <tsyesika> +1 on the voting :)
18:55:22 <sandro> tantek: any more comments?
18:55:35 <eprodrom> +1 let's vote
18:56:13 <Loqi> [Christopher Allan Webber] ActivityPub
18:56:20 <tantek> PROPOSED: AP to PR with the non-normative changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-31-october-14-november
18:56:24 <cwebber2> +1
18:56:26 <rhiaro> +1
18:56:29 <sandro> +1
18:56:37 <eprodrom> +1
18:56:42 <tsyesika> +1
18:56:52 <ajordan> +1
18:57:38 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
18:57:38 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2017/11/21-social-irc#T18-57-38
18:57:53 <tantek> RESOLVED: AP to PR with the non-normative changes https://w3c.github.io/activitypub/#changes-31-october-14-november
18:58:18 <aaronpk> 🎉
18:58:28 <Loqi> 😃
18:58:30 <ajordan> whoohoo!
18:58:32 <tsyesika> wooo! ^_^
18:58:34 <eprodrom> Wow
18:58:37 <eprodrom> BRAVO
18:58:41 <eprodrom> cwebber2++
18:58:41 <Loqi> cwebber2 has 103 karma
18:58:45 <tsyesika> cwebber2++
18:58:45 <Loqi> cwebber2 has 104 karma
18:58:46 <ajordan> cwebber2++
18:58:46 <Loqi> cwebber2 has 105 karma
18:59:18 <sandro> sandro: REC will be past Jan 1
18:59:41 <ajordan> alright, gotta go, sorry! thanks all, and woot! we did it
18:59:46 <sandro> tantek: so, we'll want to closely track issues that might come up until then
19:00:00 <sandro> topic: Back to WebSub
19:00:15 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/146
19:00:16 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #146 At risk: limiting the use of HTML <link> to the HTML <head>
19:00:29 <sandro> aaronpk: We didnt have an issue to track At-Risk
19:01:22 <sandro> tantek: Do any implementations parse it outside the head?
19:01:47 <sandro> aaronpk: We don't know
19:02:39 <sandro> sandro: shocked we let an At Risk feature get published in a PR
19:03:34 <sandro> tantek: Any evidence of subscriber implementations?
19:03:46 <sandro> aaronpk: check suibscriber librariesa
19:03:56 <sandro> aaronpk: and check where it's published
19:04:11 <sandro> tantek: what do webmention and micropub say about this?
19:04:17 <sandro> .. and LDN
19:04:35 <sandro> aaronpk: webmention has no limitation
19:05:56 <sandro> sandro: We have to find either (1) a major publuisher putting it outside the head, OR (1) a major subscriber that doesn't look outside the head.
19:06:09 <sandro> aaronpk: Homework for me?
19:06:51 <sandro> tantek: Looking at one library I know, ....
19:07:14 <sandro> tantek: Is there a test for this?
19:07:21 <sandro> aaronpk: (don't remember)
19:07:37 <sandro> aaronpk: There is one HTML tag discovery for subscribers, and it's in the head
19:07:47 <sandro> .. there is NOT a separate test for it showing up in the body
19:09:04 <sandro> aaronpk: webmention also lacks a test for link outside head
19:09:38 <sandro> tantek: procedurally, I feel like because no one commented on this, it should be dropped.
19:10:12 <sandro> sandro: agreed, but what if there is a major subscriber / library which doesn't look outside head
19:12:04 <sandro> sandro: so it may be that everyone publishes in the head, so subscribers might just be looking in the head
19:12:38 <sandro> aaronpk: This is HTML, but *most* implementations are for RSS and/or xml/atom, so this doesn't even come up
19:14:27 <sandro> tantek: ask Ralph?
19:14:38 <sandro> sandro: We should at least look / ask
19:15:01 <sandro> aaronpk: Three reported looking in HTML.  I'll ask them if they look only in head.
19:15:27 <sandro> tantek: Any other proposals?   Anyone want to keep the restriction-to-the-head ?
19:15:36 <cwebber2> +0
19:16:23 <tantek> PROPOSED: Resolve 146 as if the at-risk feature was dropped in CR to PR per no data on any known implementations of it.
19:16:25 <cwebber2> +0
19:16:54 <sandro> +1 contingent on the three respsonses aaronpk said he'd get.   If they have a problem then we re-consider
19:16:59 <aaronpk> +1
19:18:08 <eprodrom> +1
19:18:18 <sandro> eprodrom: I was surprised to see HTML allowed link elements in the body
19:18:25 <csarven> oh shot.. i got disconectde
19:18:46 <sandro> sandro: true, most publishers probably wont use the <body>
19:19:05 <tantek> RESOLVED: Resolve 146 as if the at-risk feature was dropped in CR to PR per no data on any known implementations of it, contingent on aaronpk asking for three responses regarding it.
19:19:30 <aaronpk> https://github.com/w3c/websub/issues/143
19:19:30 <Loqi> [aaronpk] #143 hub vs subscriber in section 8
19:20:41 <sandro> aaronpk: Kind of outside of scope of spec, because it's about publish-hub relationship.
19:21:35 <sandro> sandro: SHOULD subscribers re-check?
19:21:54 <sandro> aaronpk: they'll have to on expiry, and not until then
19:22:05 <sandro> sandro: So, take this out?  Since it's out-of-scope
19:22:38 <sandro> aaronpk: I guess it's in there because the headers may be different than the subscriber originally found.
19:23:01 <sandro> sandro: that sounds terrible
19:23:41 <sandro> aaronpk: yeah, except the spec says the subscriber MUST NOT use the link headers to identify subscription  (must use capability URLs)
19:23:58 <sandro> aaronpk: Or at least distinct URL
19:24:25 <sandro> sandro: let's take out the sentence, more confusing than helpful
19:25:43 <sandro> aaronpk: remove sentence about hub/discover, and change to the topic-url-may-be-different
19:26:00 <sandro> tantek: Is it a ref to something elsewhere in spec?
19:26:06 <sandro> sandro: No, because that's out-of-scope
19:26:11 <sandro> aaronpk: Right
19:26:36 <sandro> aaronpk: Important part is to warn subscribers that topic may be different
19:26:46 <sandro> sandro: Why send it?  It seems bad
19:26:50 <sandro> aaronpk: Agreed
19:27:22 <sandro> sandro: May/Must/Should include it?
19:27:37 <sandro> aaronpk: MUST
19:28:06 <sandro> ajordan: The topic might still be useful, for dereferencing
19:28:56 <sandro> sandro: Let's rephrase it as "topic url may be different", and see if commenter and julien are okay.    this isn't normative,
19:29:12 <sandro> aaronpk: right, this sentence is just providing a (confusing) example of WHY it might change
19:29:36 <cwebber2> thanks!  bye everyone! :)
19:29:50 <aaronpk> https://w3c.github.io/websub/#changes-from-03-october-2017-pr-to-this-version
19:30:00 <sandro> aaronpk: these were the tough ones, lots of easier ones
19:30:42 <tantek> hmm we need a PROPOSED
19:31:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: delete problematic sentence "A hub MAY use discovery from time to time to detect changes in a topic's canonical URL and Hub URLs." and instead explain topic URL might change
19:32:02 <aaronpk> +1
19:32:08 <sandro> +1 contingent on commenter and julien
19:32:11 <tantek> +1 with making it a Note:
19:32:25 <cwebber2> +0
19:32:51 <sandro> aaronpk: green Note box seems too prominent
19:33:10 <sandro> tantek: "for example"
19:33:15 <tantek> +1 with preceding it with "For example, "
19:33:49 <sandro> RESOLVED: delete problematic sentence "A hub MAY use discovery from time to time to detect changes in a topic's canonical URL and Hub URLs." and instead explain topic URL might change
19:33:58 <eprodrom> whew
19:34:01 <eprodrom> That was a long one
19:34:29 <tantek> sandro++ for scribing
19:34:29 <Loqi> sandro has 51 karma in this channel (58 overall)
19:34:34 <tantek> trackbot, end meeting
19:34:34 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:34:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tantek, cwebber, npdoty, annbass, hadleybeeman, snarfed, torgo, rhiaro, ajordan, eprodrom, aaronpk, bengo, sandro,
19:34:37 <Zakim> ... get-webmention-url@1.0.0, +, tsyesika, csarven
19:34:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:34:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/21-social-minutes.html trackbot
19:34:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:34:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items