IRC log of spatnav on 2017-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:01:49 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc
21:01:54 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, makes logs public
21:01:54 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs public', tidoust. Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:02:00 [tidoust]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:02:10 [florian_]
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Meeting: Spatial Navigation in the Web breakout session - TPAC 2017
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Chair: Hyojin, Jihye
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21:03:14 [cpn]
scribe: cpn
21:04:03 [jcraig]
topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc
21:04:12 [jcraig]
topic spatnav https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc
21:04:39 [robdodson]
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jcraig has changed the topic to: https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc
21:05:52 [jcraig]
jcraig has changed the topic to: Spatial Navigation W3C TPAC. Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc
21:06:11 [urata]
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21:06:39 [cpn]
hyojin: this is a TV specific issue, but could be broader, for other industries
21:06:41 [IanPouncey]
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21:07:07 [cpn]
... smart TV has a great screen, but i'd like to focus on input devices
21:07:25 [cpn]
... desktop and mobile have touch, keyboard, mouse interface
21:07:39 [cpn]
... i'll demo now the LG remote control works
21:08:02 [cpn]
[shows video]
21:08:26 [hyojin]
LG remote controll video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoxYO9DslkA
21:08:44 [cpn]
s/demo now/demo how/
21:09:58 [cpn]
hyojin: you can see the moving pointer, and other option keys on the remote control
21:10:32 [cpn]
... with this remote control, you can use commands such as pointing as well as voice and gesture
21:10:43 [cpn]
... as well as remote control by mobile
21:10:49 [cpn]
... android TV is pushing this method
21:11:19 [cpn]
... we need well defined specifications to enable the 5-way buttons (arrows and OK button)
21:11:41 [cpn]
... we want to propose an extension of the web for spatial navigation
21:12:05 [cpn]
... there are many web based TV platforms, eg opera TV, tizen TV
21:12:10 [cpn]
... they have the same issues
21:12:11 [igarashi]
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21:12:22 [igarashi]
+Tatsuya_Igarashi
21:12:37 [cpn]
... we made a web framework for spatial navigation features, that we'd like to standardise for web engine support
21:13:08 [cpn]
... native platforms have considered spatial navigation (android TV and apple TV), but it's not supported on the web as of now
21:13:26 [cpn]
... i'm talking about the TV industry but other devices could be considered
21:13:43 [cpn]
... eg, desktop with keyboard for accessibility
21:13:49 [bkardell_]
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21:14:02 [cpn]
... TV/STB and IVI
21:14:24 [cpn]
... also game console using gamepads
21:14:24 [dtapuska]
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21:14:42 [cpn]
... on the desktop, we use the tab key for navigation, but it's hard to use the 4-way navigation as of now
21:14:59 [cpn]
... i hope to see the web embrace spatial navigation
21:15:31 [cpn]
... considering arrow key support on the web, they move the cursor between selected input items
21:15:40 [cpn]
... normally, the arrow keys are used for scrolling
21:16:11 [cpn]
... spatial navigation means using the arrow keys for moving focus.
21:16:20 [cpn]
... how can spatial navigation be used for this on the web?
21:16:27 [MikeSmith]
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21:16:30 [cpn]
... it's already supported in chrome, behind a flag
21:17:27 [dbaron]
https://lgeweb.github.io/spatial-navigation/demo/heuristic/heuristic_testcases.html
21:18:01 [cpn]
jihye: this doesn't use any javascript apis for navigation
21:18:19 [cpn]
... the movement is quite nice, but doesn't cover all cases
21:18:30 [hyojin]
Spatial Navigation Overview: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation
21:18:36 [cpn]
[demo of some controls that are unreachable]
21:18:59 [cpn]
... eg, a scroll element that can't be reached
21:19:48 [cpn]
... web pages on TV look like this: content with side bar menus, sometimes a long scrolling list
21:19:55 [cpn]
... spatial navigation can cover these cases
21:20:15 [cpn]
... we have two ways: combining with arrow key behaviour, and the touch screen algorithm
21:20:48 [Louay]
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21:20:48 [sangwhan]
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21:20:58 [Louay]
Present+ Louay_Bassbouss
21:21:05 [sangwhan]
Present+ Sangwhan
21:21:13 [cpn]
... with the heuristic spatial navigation, the arrow keys move between text elements
21:21:24 [sangwhan]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:21:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html sangwhan
21:21:26 [cpn]
... sometimes the user wants to go to the next element without moving the cursor
21:21:46 [cpn]
... the heuristic spatial navigation moves the scroll bar of the scrollable area first
21:21:57 [cpn]
... the focus is moved when the element comes into view
21:22:18 [cpn]
... some users want to customise the navigation algorithm
21:22:50 [cpn]
... we want something easy to define for developers and users in CSS and JS
21:23:06 [cpn]
... it will make it easier to develop apps using spatial navigation
21:23:17 [cpn]
.. we provide ways to override the heuristic spatial navigation
21:23:34 [jihye]
https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/blob/master/explainer.md
21:23:35 [cpn]
... our github repo has an explainer page
21:23:55 [cpn]
... we provide 3 spatial navigation algorithms
21:24:04 [cpn]
... projection, direction, and nearest
21:25:36 [cpn]
[explanation of the three approaches]
21:25:59 [cpn]
... we also provide focus looping, which can be applied to long lists in the scrollable area
21:26:24 [cpn]
... the heuristic spatial navigation doesn't support this right now
21:26:48 [cpn]
... it's useful for long scrolling pages, avoids the need to press the arrow keys a lot
21:27:17 [cpn]
[demo using the proposed API]
21:27:37 [hyojin]
Timetable demo: https://lgeweb.github.io/spatial-navigation/demo/
21:27:42 [IanPouncey]
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21:29:16 [cpn]
direction option uses shorted distance
21:29:37 [cpn]
s/direction/... direction/
21:29:59 [cpn]
... when the focus is at the end of the page, it won't move any more
21:30:15 [cpn]
... if you enable focus looping, it will return to the top of the page
21:30:32 [cpn]
... pressing the up arrow key at the top of the page goes to the bottom of the page
21:31:36 [cpn]
[discussion of what the default behaviour is]
21:32:02 [jcraig]
From the explainer doc: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/blob/master/explainer.md
21:32:15 [jcraig]
arrow-key-behavior: auto | navigation | scroll
21:32:18 [cpn]
florian: opera used to have this, but no longer since they moved to blink
21:33:06 [cpn]
dtapuska: would like to see this specified
21:33:19 [jcraig]
q+ to mention FireFox caret move default behavior, with matches the Safari behavior if Accessibility is enabled.
21:33:48 [cpn]
florian: we used to have as-smart-as-possible heuristics, lots of edge cases, so sometimes the author needs to control it
21:34:04 [jcraig]
default Safari behavior seens to match the intention (If I understand the spec correctly) of the value for ‘scroll’
21:34:08 [cpn]
... this works for a small page with few elements
21:34:34 [cpn]
... maybe we want to remove heuristics entirely
21:35:12 [cpn]
... dtapuska: i'd like to see an algorithm come out that we can agree on
21:35:32 [cpn]
florian: not sure it will be possible to agree it
21:35:51 [cpn]
sangwhan: the spec should define algorithm, but could be updated with smarter algorithms later
21:36:34 [astearns]
ack jcraig
21:36:34 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention FireFox caret move default behavior, with matches the Safari behavior if Accessibility is enabled.
21:36:34 [cpn]
dtapuska: auto mode is up to the browser, but each vendor could do different things, so no interoperability
21:37:21 [cpn]
jcraig: as an example of algorithms that can be updated, the WCAG has a color contrast algorithm that works in 99% of places, but sometimes perceived contrast differs
21:37:24 [jcraig]
ack me
21:38:01 [cpn]
jcraig: looking at the explainer doc, something not covered in arrow key behaviour, i think firefox by default is caret position
21:38:47 [cpn]
... there need to be a few more properties, and these need to allow for the user context, and allow the user to control
21:39:13 [dbaron]
In Firefox, Shift+arrows certainly moves caret position/selection; I haven't seen unshifted arrows do that.
21:39:14 [cpn]
... another thing is containerization of grouping, eg, tab navigation within a group, then go to spatial navigation
21:39:34 [dbaron]
(but I'm not particularly knowledgable there)
21:40:10 [cpn]
jihye: we are trying to solve spatial navigation applied to grouped elements, but at the moment it's for the whole page. we're figuring it out
21:40:18 [cpn]
... we'd like to discuss via github issues
21:40:28 [hyojin]
github issues: https://github.com/lgeweb/spatial-navigation/issues
21:41:04 [cpn]
... remaining issues there: how to enable spatial navigation features, how to trigger the spatial navigation rule, and one-side axis considered nav-loop
21:41:31 [melanierichards]
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21:41:41 [cpn]
hyojin: we can write a design document to describe the heuristic, but how can we make progress on that?
21:42:00 [cpn]
florian: this seemed to be a CSS topic, so we brought it up there
21:42:11 [cpn]
... but it's broader than that, need input from components people
21:42:43 [cpn]
... defining the rules, follow the extensible web approach
21:42:56 [cpn]
... how to treat events? event ordering, preventDefault, etc
21:43:21 [jcraig]
q+ to suggest js polyfill (arrow key interception) to try out in any browser
21:43:21 [cpn]
... we need a group with overlapping skills: components, CSS, JS, a11y
21:43:31 [IanPouncey]
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21:43:54 [cpn]
... we are in the CSS WG, we're getting the spec into WICG, build a community
21:44:00 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to suggest js polyfill (arrow key interception) to try out in any browser
21:44:02 [sangwhan]
Ditto on jcraig's suggestion, would allow iterating over different algorithms cheaply
21:44:09 [cpn]
... then we can go to the various WGs
21:44:39 [cpn]
... related work in CSS is override, stale for a while. it's in Presto, the old opera engine
21:45:03 [cpn]
... spatial navigation is in blink, HbbTV require it, so its in TVs in Europe
21:45:04 [astearns]
ack jcraig
21:45:08 [aboxhall]
q+ use cases differ between devices
21:45:17 [aboxhall]
q+ to discuss use cases differing between devices
21:45:19 [cpn]
jcraig: it would be useful to try a JS polyfill
21:45:43 [jihye]
q?
21:45:57 [cpn]
... could be a quick way to try things out, specifically about the examples demoed earlier
21:46:05 [robdodson]
are there links to the polyfills somewhere?
21:46:20 [astearns]
ack aboxhall
21:46:20 [Zakim]
aboxhall, you wanted to discuss use cases differing between devices
21:46:41 [cpn]
aboxhall: depending on the device. for a TV you want everything to be spatial, eg using a d-pad
21:46:56 [IanPouncey]
q+ to discuss user expectation
21:47:12 [florian_]
q?
21:47:19 [bkardell_]
q+
21:47:22 [astearns]
ack IanPouncey
21:47:22 [Zakim]
IanPouncey, you wanted to discuss user expectation
21:47:23 [jcraig]
ack ia
21:47:24 [cpn]
... on desktop, the idea of containers come into play, using tab key with spatial navigation
21:47:26 [florian_]
q+
21:48:02 [cpn]
IanPouncey: with the different navigation methods, how do we express to users what will happen. the defaults are easy to get used to
21:48:34 [cpn]
... but when this may change based on author settings, behaviour may be unexpected
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21:48:51 [florian_]
q?
21:49:27 [cpn]
... bkardell: in CSS WG we talked about moving this to WICG, and other related concerns
21:49:41 [cpn]
... what should the scope of this include at WICG?
21:49:57 [cpn]
... eg, is focus an appropriate part of this?
21:50:18 [astearns]
ack bkardell_
21:50:18 [cpn]
aboxhall: focus ring and intert are distinct from this but adjacent
21:50:27 [IanPouncey_]
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21:50:34 [jcraig]
q+ to ask if linear navigation modes have been considered… e.g. menu (vertical), tab list (horizontal), grid (vert+horiz), and 9-key (5-key plus diagonals)
21:50:35 [cpn]
... should we have a group looking at all of this in one place
21:50:54 [cpn]
bkardell: that may slow us down
21:51:12 [cpn]
florian: it may actually speed us up
21:51:43 [jcraig]
q+ to say, e.g. If I tab into a vertical menu, up/down is intercepted, but other keys are ignored.
21:51:55 [tantek]
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21:51:57 [cpn]
[ florian calls for support ]
21:52:08 [tantek]
present+
21:52:14 [cpn]
florian: we're discussing this in WICG at 1pm
21:52:19 [florian_]
q-
21:52:27 [jcraig]
ack me
21:52:27 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to ask if linear navigation modes have been considered… e.g. menu (vertical), tab list (horizontal), grid (vert+horiz), and 9-key (5-key plus diagonals) and to
21:52:30 [Zakim]
... say, e.g. If I tab into a vertical menu, up/down is intercepted, but other keys are ignored.
21:53:16 [cpn]
jcraig: tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, in CSS WG we discussed roaming tab index
21:53:43 [cpn]
... this would be useful from a a11y point of view to implement in a small containerised package
21:54:04 [aboxhall]
The ARIA design patterns would be good to mine for use cases for this ^^
21:54:23 [aboxhall]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#aria_ex
21:54:27 [cpn]
... eg tabbing into a menu or grid, maybe able to easily specify elements of the spatial navigation to recognise
21:54:59 [robdodson]
"roving tabindex", which jcraig mentioned, explained: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/Keyboard-navigable_JavaScript_widgets#Technique_1_Roving_tabindex
21:55:21 [cpn]
fremy: screen readers override the arrow keys
21:55:44 [cpn]
... a couple of questions: why do we need the arrow keys by default, and why not solve at the a11y and screen reader level?
21:55:51 [florian_]
q+
21:56:26 [cpn]
johnfoliot: what about scrollable pages without many focusable elements?
21:57:10 [cpn]
tantek: webtv implemented that. if there are focusable elements close by, it goes to those. if not, it scrolls
21:57:43 [cpn]
johnfoliot: screen reader users may want to focus on a region that's not tab focusable
21:57:43 [jcraig]
s/tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, in CSS WG we discussed roaming tab index/tab panels are usually horizontal navigation, single-level menus are usually vertical only… Please consider subsets of “spatial nav” such as vertical-only, horizontal-only… 5-key, 9-key, etc./
21:58:29 [tantek]
+1 to johnfoliot's points
21:58:30 [cpn]
florian: it probably couldn't be enabled by default for arrow keys
21:58:51 [cpn]
... for desktop browsers, most don't support but not for arrow keys, only shift-arrow combos
21:59:22 [cpn]
... another approach: declare at the page level that it uses spatial navigation
21:59:31 [cpn]
... may be useful to have a switch
22:00:00 [cpn]
hyojin: thank you for your comments, we can continue the discussion
22:00:18 [cpn]
jihye: we'll be at the WICG meeting, starting at 1:30pm. please join us
22:00:24 [cpn]
... thank you for coming
22:00:26 [cpn]
[adjourned]
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22:12:52 [jcraig]
rrsagent make minutes
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rrsagent, make minutes
22:14:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig
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22:15:12 [jcraig]
s/topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc//
22:15:27 [jcraig]
s/topic spatnav https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc//
22:15:34 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:15:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig
22:17:11 [jcraig]
s/topic https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-irc\//
22:17:19 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:17:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2017/11/08-spatnav-minutes.html jcraig
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