13:49:35 RRSAgent has joined #lvtf 13:49:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/14-lvtf-irc 13:49:37 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:49:37 Zakim has joined #lvtf 13:49:39 Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 13:49:39 Date: 14 September 2017 13:49:52 chair: Jim 13:50:14 Agenda+ Content on hover or focus 13:50:36 Agenda+ 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI 13:50:58 regrets: JohnR 14:37:15 Agenda+ "open" Captions https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/347#issuecomment-328973622 14:40:37 Agenda+ Adapting Text https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1001.html 14:43:07 Agenda+ Adapting Text - PDF https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/349 14:44:21 shawn has joined #lvtf 14:57:04 laura has joined #lvtf 15:00:54 Glenda has joined #lvtf 15:06:30 present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn 15:07:09 steverep has joined #lvtf 15:07:22 present+steverep 15:08:16 present+ Erich 15:08:22 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:08:22 Present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn, steverep, Erich 15:08:27 laura has joined #lvtf 15:09:06 erich has joined #lvtf 15:11:08 present+ Laura 15:11:15 Regrets: John 15:11:31 Scribe: erich 15:11:44 agenda? 15:12:01 topic: house keeping 15:12:07 present+ 15:12:12 zakim, who is on the call? 15:12:12 Present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn, steverep, Erich, Laura 15:12:52 JA: need a schedule for when understanding docs will be complete 15:13:51 GS: if do not need written techniques, mine is done 15:14:06 LC: mine is pretty well done too (adapting text) 15:14:18 jim put UI contrast and Adapting Text Understanding doc on Agenda for next week 15:14:58 jim put a note out to group for getting on agenda. 15:15:30 zakim, open item 1 15:15:30 agendum 1. "Content on hover or focus" taken up [from allanj] 15:16:23 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/350#issuecomment-327589159 15:17:00 SR: would like to discuss some of the last-minute objections raised 15:17:02 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-321443487 15:18:19 SR: Issue about repositioning may be easier to resolve than issue with trigger 15:18:50 SR: repositioning was added based on an objection 15:20:41 current SC 15:20:46 When a user interface component which receives keyboard focus or pointer hover causes content to become visible, the following are true: 15:20:47 Visible Trigger 15:20:49 Either the additional content does not obscure any essential content within the triggering user interface component, or the additional content can be closed or repositioned by the user; 15:20:50 Hover 15:20:52 If the additional content is triggered via pointer hover, then that content remains visible when the pointer is moved over it; 15:20:53 Focus 15:20:55 The additional content remains visible while the triggering user interface component has keyboard focus, unless the user dismisses the additional content. 15:20:56 Exception: The visual presentation of the content is controlled by the user agent and is not modified by the author. 15:21:42 GS; feel kind of neutral. the way I read it, if the trigger is obscured, but you can reposition, it's ok but not ideal 15:22:13 SR: I propose language that, if you can reposition off of the trigger itself, then it makes sense 15:22:25 GS: I would agree with that 15:23:08 repositioning is big loophole 15:23:20 SR: moving windows around is generally not something low-vision folks do 15:24:38 would there even be a repositioning technique 15:25:34 repositioning seems to be under user control 15:25:37 SR: you don't necessarily need a techniqure for it, but regardless, if you think about the sharepoint example you would just need different on-hover regions for the same object 15:28:58 JA: what should we support you on Steve? 15:29:19 SR: I am going to file an issue, which hopefully will be discussed and we can take care of it 15:29:33 SR: would like to get it resolved through language that everyone is okay with 15:30:02 SR: I am proposing language that explicitly says it can be repositioned off of the trigger 15:30:53 SR: support could come in the form of comments on the issue I feel, or specific resolutions we have here about what is or isn't okay in terms of low-vision 15:32:42 JA: Steve could you bring this back next week, to allow time for review, discussion and identification of proper resolutions? 15:32:48 SR: Sure, sounds good. 15:33:19 jim put Hover on agenda for next week. discuss on list https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-321443487 15:33:39 zakim, close item 1 15:33:39 agendum 1, Content on hover or focus, closed 15:33:40 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:33:40 2. 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI [from allanj] 15:34:09 zakim, open item 2 15:34:09 agendum 2. "3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI" taken up [from allanj] 15:34:50 GS: we have logical reasons for saying 4.5:1 for things that are thin, but the complexity of testing for that may not be worth it 15:35:08 GS: if we just get 3:1, it is reasonable to ask people to test for 15:35:30 GS: majority of research leading to 4.5:1 was based on reading 15:36:11 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/345 15:36:32 GS: color contrast need are not specific to reading, are more complex 15:37:10 JA: a frequent issue i've had is with form controls, even at 3:1 at times 15:38:41 GS: could we get examples of insufficient contrast at 3:1? 15:40:16 GS: major concern is if we fall too quickly back to 3:1 we could shoot ourselves in the foot 15:41:24 GS: no need to exclude any possibility of using 4.5:1 for certain thinner elements 15:41:38 research this 15:42:47 more than a survey, need demographics. someone who understands low vision 15:43:57 Do we have a link to his talk? 15:44:36 Erich: Howard Kaplan, low vision reading, invite to a call 15:44:45 Research I found interesting: 15:44:46 http://www.vectorvision.com/contrast-sensitivity-background/ 15:44:53 http://www.vectorvision.com/csv1000-norms/ 15:45:18 contrast vs acuity limit 15:46:00 q+ Total luminance is also a big factor 15:46:37 ack s 15:46:47 Here is the talk that Jared did on Rethinking Color and Contrast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtUlonNewGk&index=1&list=FLio9ud-Ay0NKxGlcUZLhQVQ 15:47:26 with poor contrast single pixel line width fonts vanish 15:48:28 SR: many people also have glare sensitive, photophobic considerations 15:48:40 total luminance is an issue for reading 15:48:55 The importance of Contrast Sensitivity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtUlonNewGk&index=1&list=FLio9ud-Ay0NKxGlcUZLhQVQ 15:49:24 “Contrast Sensitivity Function (CSF) 15:49:24 Detailed contrast sensitivity measurements that include both size (spatial frequency) and contrast are used to plot a person's contrast sensitivity function (CSF). 15:49:25 Sine-wave grating targets with thicker bars represent low spatial frequencies; targets with thinner bars represent higher spatial frequencies. In this regard, determining a person's CSF is much like evaluating the sensitivity of his or her hearing, which involves using tones of low and high pitch as well as variations in volume. 15:49:26 Your contrast sensitivity function essentially is a plotting of the curve that defines the lowest contrast level that you can detect for each spatial frequency tested. 15:49:27 Generally, objects with high spatial frequencies (sine-wave gratings with very thin bars) must have significantly higher contrast than objects with lower spatial frequencies (gratings with medium-width bars) to be detected by the human visual system.” 15:49:50 ACTION: Shawn consider in user needs/req issue with overall luminance (e.g., light background) SR's point in 14 Sept 2017 15:49:50 Created ACTION-102 - Consider in user needs/req issue with overall luminance (e.g., light background) sr's point in 14 sept 2017 [on Shawn Henry - due 2017-09-21]. 15:50:14 q+ 15:50:36 ack me 15:50:39 ack s 15:51:20 SH: Steve has a good point, we need to have reflected in our user needs document 15:54:08 http://www.precision-vision.com/?s=contrast%20patti Look at this 15:55:13 this is low contrast vs acuity limit test not with letters 15:56:08 http://www.vectorvision.com/csv1000-contrast-sensitivity/ 15:56:20 Standardized Contrast Sensitivity Tests 16:08:37 zakim, close item 2 16:08:37 agendum 2, 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI, closed 16:08:38 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:08:38 3. "open" Captions https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/347#issuecomment-328973622 [from allanj] 16:09:34 Topic: Adapting text 16:09:57 "open 16:10:16 s/"open/"open" captions is editorial 16:10:57 discussing https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1001.html 16:12:12 5. text color to any color that the user agent allows 16:12:23 6. background color to any color that the user agent allows 16:12:33 7. font-family to any font family that the user agent allows and has immediately available 16:12:39 NOTE: If the user is changes the text and background colors - then the author is not responsible for meeting any contrast SC other than for the colors specified as default by the author. 16:14:18 lots of push -back on Fonts 16:16:39 color/contrast alastair comment https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/348#issuecomment-329119866 16:17:00 The one that comes up (occasionally) is background images. E.g. you have a solid (or gradient) blue background with white text. The user changes the text colour to blue, and can't read it. 16:17:13 SR: should focus on few things that can go wrong with color 16:18:05 transparency 16:18:52 it seems the group thinks these are a non-issue 16:20:04 jim will revist greg 3 bullets next week for resolution. 16:20:15 s/revist/revisit 16:20:44 topic: adapting text & PDF 16:20:56 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/349 16:24:22 What comment are we dicsussing? 16:24:41 The one that comes up (occasionally) is background images. E.g. you have a solid (or gradient) blue background with white text. The user changes the text colour to blue, and can't read it. 16:24:48 https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-323662527 16:26:22 PDF fails the sc. but works in browsers 16:27:59 if you provide an alternative conforming version you are done 16:28:05 -- shawn 16:29:09 Andrew’s email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1009.html 16:31:34 seems that PDF can't be reliably tested. would hate to restrict the SC, so when PDF can meets the SC then it can be tested 16:32:07 SR: the exception seems to cover PDF 16:33:41 user agent goes back to technology support. 16:34:10 because a browser doesn't read alt text to the user, the page does not fail WCAG 16:35:26 because pdf reader cannot display arabic font, the page doesn't fail the SC 16:37:11 if new technologies come up that don't support alt text, that doens't mean it doesn't meet WCAG 16:37:18 concept - accessibility support, conformance in general. supported by user agents, widely available. 16:38:24 a new user agent that is not accessibility supported is not a worry. 16:39:25 perhaps in the understanding document we say PDF user agent does not allow these changes and so is untestable 16:41:25 rrsagent, make minutes 16:41:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/14-lvtf-minutes.html erich 16:41:26 bye 16:41:28 laura has left #lvtf 16:41:36 present+ Glenda 16:41:56 rrsagent, make minutes 16:41:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/14-lvtf-minutes.html erich