IRC log of lvtf on 2017-09-14

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13:49:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:49:39 [trackbot]
Date: 14 September 2017
13:49:52 [allanj]
chair: Jim
13:50:14 [allanj]
Agenda+ Content on hover or focus
13:50:36 [allanj]
Agenda+ 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI
13:50:58 [allanj]
regrets: JohnR
14:37:15 [allanj]
Agenda+ "open" Captions https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/347#issuecomment-328973622
14:40:37 [allanj]
Agenda+ Adapting Text https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1001.html
14:43:07 [allanj]
Agenda+ Adapting Text - PDF https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/349
14:44:21 [shawn]
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14:57:04 [laura]
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15:00:54 [Glenda]
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15:06:30 [shawn]
present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn
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15:07:22 [steverep]
present+steverep
15:08:16 [shawn]
present+ Erich
15:08:22 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:22 [Zakim]
Present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn, steverep, Erich
15:08:27 [laura]
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15:09:06 [erich]
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15:11:08 [shawn]
present+ Laura
15:11:15 [shawn]
Regrets: John
15:11:31 [erich]
Scribe: erich
15:11:44 [allanj]
agenda?
15:12:01 [allanj]
topic: house keeping
15:12:07 [erich]
present+
15:12:12 [erich]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:12:12 [Zakim]
Present: Jim, Glenda, Shawn, steverep, Erich, Laura
15:12:52 [erich]
JA: need a schedule for when understanding docs will be complete
15:13:51 [erich]
GS: if do not need written techniques, mine is done
15:14:06 [erich]
LC: mine is pretty well done too (adapting text)
15:14:18 [allanj]
jim put UI contrast and Adapting Text Understanding doc on Agenda for next week
15:14:58 [allanj]
jim put a note out to group for getting on agenda.
15:15:30 [allanj]
zakim, open item 1
15:15:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Content on hover or focus" taken up [from allanj]
15:16:23 [allanj]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/350#issuecomment-327589159
15:17:00 [erich]
SR: would like to discuss some of the last-minute objections raised
15:17:02 [steverep]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-321443487
15:18:19 [erich]
SR: Issue about repositioning may be easier to resolve than issue with trigger
15:18:50 [erich]
SR: repositioning was added based on an objection
15:20:41 [allanj]
current SC
15:20:46 [allanj]
When a user interface component which receives keyboard focus or pointer hover causes content to become visible, the following are true:
15:20:47 [allanj]
Visible Trigger
15:20:49 [allanj]
Either the additional content does not obscure any essential content within the triggering user interface component, or the additional content can be closed or repositioned by the user;
15:20:50 [allanj]
Hover
15:20:52 [allanj]
If the additional content is triggered via pointer hover, then that content remains visible when the pointer is moved over it;
15:20:53 [allanj]
Focus
15:20:55 [allanj]
The additional content remains visible while the triggering user interface component has keyboard focus, unless the user dismisses the additional content.
15:20:56 [allanj]
Exception: The visual presentation of the content is controlled by the user agent and is not modified by the author.
15:21:42 [erich]
GS; feel kind of neutral. the way I read it, if the trigger is obscured, but you can reposition, it's ok but not ideal
15:22:13 [erich]
SR: I propose language that, if you can reposition off of the trigger itself, then it makes sense
15:22:25 [erich]
GS: I would agree with that
15:23:08 [allanj]
repositioning is big loophole
15:23:20 [erich]
SR: moving windows around is generally not something low-vision folks do
15:24:38 [allanj]
would there even be a repositioning technique
15:25:34 [allanj]
repositioning seems to be under user control
15:25:37 [erich]
SR: you don't necessarily need a techniqure for it, but regardless, if you think about the sharepoint example you would just need different on-hover regions for the same object
15:28:58 [erich]
JA: what should we support you on Steve?
15:29:19 [erich]
SR: I am going to file an issue, which hopefully will be discussed and we can take care of it
15:29:33 [erich]
SR: would like to get it resolved through language that everyone is okay with
15:30:02 [erich]
SR: I am proposing language that explicitly says it can be repositioned off of the trigger
15:30:53 [erich]
SR: support could come in the form of comments on the issue I feel, or specific resolutions we have here about what is or isn't okay in terms of low-vision
15:32:42 [erich]
JA: Steve could you bring this back next week, to allow time for review, discussion and identification of proper resolutions?
15:32:48 [erich]
SR: Sure, sounds good.
15:33:19 [allanj]
jim put Hover on agenda for next week. discuss on list https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75#issuecomment-321443487
15:33:39 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
15:33:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Content on hover or focus, closed
15:33:40 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:40 [Zakim]
2. 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI [from allanj]
15:34:09 [allanj]
zakim, open item 2
15:34:09 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI" taken up [from allanj]
15:34:50 [erich]
GS: we have logical reasons for saying 4.5:1 for things that are thin, but the complexity of testing for that may not be worth it
15:35:08 [erich]
GS: if we just get 3:1, it is reasonable to ask people to test for
15:35:30 [erich]
GS: majority of research leading to 4.5:1 was based on reading
15:36:11 [allanj]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/345
15:36:32 [erich]
GS: color contrast need are not specific to reading, are more complex
15:37:10 [erich]
JA: a frequent issue i've had is with form controls, even at 3:1 at times
15:38:41 [erich]
GS: could we get examples of insufficient contrast at 3:1?
15:40:16 [erich]
GS: major concern is if we fall too quickly back to 3:1 we could shoot ourselves in the foot
15:41:24 [erich]
GS: no need to exclude any possibility of using 4.5:1 for certain thinner elements
15:41:38 [allanj]
research this
15:42:47 [allanj]
more than a survey, need demographics. someone who understands low vision
15:43:57 [steverep]
Do we have a link to his talk?
15:44:36 [allanj]
Erich: Howard Kaplan, low vision reading, invite to a call
15:44:45 [Glenda]
Research I found interesting:
15:44:46 [Glenda]
http://www.vectorvision.com/contrast-sensitivity-background/
15:44:53 [Glenda]
http://www.vectorvision.com/csv1000-norms/
15:45:18 [allanj]
contrast vs acuity limit
15:46:00 [steverep]
q+ Total luminance is also a big factor
15:46:37 [allanj]
ack s
15:46:47 [Glenda]
Here is the talk that Jared did on Rethinking Color and Contrast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtUlonNewGk&index=1&list=FLio9ud-Ay0NKxGlcUZLhQVQ
15:47:26 [allanj]
with poor contrast single pixel line width fonts vanish
15:48:28 [erich]
SR: many people also have glare sensitive, photophobic considerations
15:48:40 [allanj]
total luminance is an issue for reading
15:48:55 [Glenda]
The importance of Contrast Sensitivity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtUlonNewGk&index=1&list=FLio9ud-Ay0NKxGlcUZLhQVQ
15:49:24 [Glenda]
“Contrast Sensitivity Function (CSF)
15:49:24 [Glenda]
Detailed contrast sensitivity measurements that include both size (spatial frequency) and contrast are used to plot a person's contrast sensitivity function (CSF).
15:49:25 [Glenda]
Sine-wave grating targets with thicker bars represent low spatial frequencies; targets with thinner bars represent higher spatial frequencies. In this regard, determining a person's CSF is much like evaluating the sensitivity of his or her hearing, which involves using tones of low and high pitch as well as variations in volume.
15:49:26 [Glenda]
Your contrast sensitivity function essentially is a plotting of the curve that defines the lowest contrast level that you can detect for each spatial frequency tested.
15:49:27 [Glenda]
Generally, objects with high spatial frequencies (sine-wave gratings with very thin bars) must have significantly higher contrast than objects with lower spatial frequencies (gratings with medium-width bars) to be detected by the human visual system.”
15:49:50 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn consider in user needs/req issue with overall luminance (e.g., light background) SR's point in 14 Sept 2017
15:49:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-102 - Consider in user needs/req issue with overall luminance (e.g., light background) sr's point in 14 sept 2017 [on Shawn Henry - due 2017-09-21].
15:50:14 [shawn]
q+
15:50:36 [shawn]
ack me
15:50:39 [allanj]
ack s
15:51:20 [erich]
SH: Steve has a good point, we need to have reflected in our user needs document
15:54:08 [Glenda]
http://www.precision-vision.com/?s=contrast%20patti Look at this
15:55:13 [allanj]
this is low contrast vs acuity limit test not with letters
15:56:08 [Glenda]
http://www.vectorvision.com/csv1000-contrast-sensitivity/
15:56:20 [Glenda]
Standardized Contrast Sensitivity Tests
16:08:37 [allanj]
zakim, close item 2
16:08:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2, 3:1 vs 4.5:1 contrast ratio graphics and UI, closed
16:08:38 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:08:38 [Zakim]
3. "open" Captions https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/347#issuecomment-328973622 [from allanj]
16:09:34 [allanj]
Topic: Adapting text
16:09:57 [allanj]
"open
16:10:16 [allanj]
s/"open/"open" captions is editorial
16:10:57 [allanj]
discussing https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1001.html
16:12:12 [laura]
5. text color to any color that the user agent allows
16:12:23 [laura]
6. background color to any color that the user agent allows
16:12:33 [laura]
7. font-family to any font family that the user agent allows and has immediately available
16:12:39 [laura]
NOTE: If the user is changes the text and background colors - then the author is not responsible for meeting any contrast SC other than for the colors specified as default by the author.
16:14:18 [allanj]
lots of push -back on Fonts
16:16:39 [allanj]
color/contrast alastair comment https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/348#issuecomment-329119866
16:17:00 [allanj]
The one that comes up (occasionally) is background images. E.g. you have a solid (or gradient) blue background with white text. The user changes the text colour to blue, and can't read it.
16:17:13 [erich]
SR: should focus on few things that can go wrong with color
16:18:05 [allanj]
transparency
16:18:52 [allanj]
it seems the group thinks these are a non-issue
16:20:04 [allanj]
jim will revist greg 3 bullets next week for resolution.
16:20:15 [allanj]
s/revist/revisit
16:20:44 [allanj]
topic: adapting text & PDF
16:20:56 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/349
16:24:22 [steverep]
What comment are we dicsussing?
16:24:41 [allanj]
The one that comes up (occasionally) is background images. E.g. you have a solid (or gradient) blue background with white text. The user changes the text colour to blue, and can't read it.
16:24:48 [laura]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-323662527
16:26:22 [allanj]
PDF fails the sc. but works in browsers
16:27:59 [allanj]
if you provide an alternative conforming version you are done
16:28:05 [allanj]
-- shawn
16:29:09 [laura]
Andrew’s email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017JulSep/1009.html
16:31:34 [allanj]
seems that PDF can't be reliably tested. would hate to restrict the SC, so when PDF can meets the SC then it can be tested
16:32:07 [allanj]
SR: the exception seems to cover PDF
16:33:41 [allanj]
user agent goes back to technology support.
16:34:10 [allanj]
because a browser doesn't read alt text to the user, the page does not fail WCAG
16:35:26 [allanj]
because pdf reader cannot display arabic font, the page doesn't fail the SC
16:37:11 [shawn]
if new technologies come up that don't support alt text, that doens't mean it doesn't meet WCAG
16:37:18 [allanj]
concept - accessibility support, conformance in general. supported by user agents, widely available.
16:38:24 [allanj]
a new user agent that is not accessibility supported is not a worry.
16:39:25 [allanj]
perhaps in the understanding document we say PDF user agent does not allow these changes and so is untestable
16:41:25 [erich]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/14-lvtf-minutes.html erich
16:41:26 [laura]
bye
16:41:28 [laura]
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16:41:36 [Glenda]
present+ Glenda
16:41:56 [erich]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/14-lvtf-minutes.html erich