11:57:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poe
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11:57:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poe
11:57:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
11:57:41 <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2017
11:57:58 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170911
11:58:11 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: agenda 2017-09-11: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170911
11:58:18 <ivan> Chair: Renato
11:58:34 <ivan> Regrets: Sabrina, Serena
12:20:27 <LindaB> LindaB has joined #poe
12:20:40 <LindaB> present+
12:23:12 <renato> renato has joined #poe
12:27:39 <ivan> present+
12:28:16 <victor> victor has joined #poe
12:29:08 <renato> present+
12:30:04 <ivan> present+ MichaelS
12:30:09 <michaelS> michaelS has joined #poe
12:30:34 <victor> present+
12:30:36 <victor> hi!
12:32:19 <renato> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170911
12:32:27 <renato> Chair: renato
12:33:38 <benws_> benws_ has joined #poe
12:33:54 <benws_> present+
12:33:58 <michaelS> present+
12:34:10 <renato> Regrets: Sabrina, Serena, Simon
12:35:43 <victor> i can scribe
12:35:48 <victor> scribe: victor
12:36:03 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/09/04-poe-minutes
12:36:06 <victor> topic:  Approve last meeting's minutes
12:36:21 <michaelS> scribenick: victor
12:36:30 <victor> resolution: approve last meeting's minutes
12:36:55 <victor> topic: Vote on Editors Drafts for Candidate Recommendation
12:37:28 <renato> https://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#rule-process
12:37:44 <victor> renato: the hottest issue is the processing rule section
12:38:04 <victor> renato: ben has been proposing tables (or truth tables) with in-out
12:38:09 <CarolineB> CarolineB has joined #poe
12:38:17 <ivan> present+ caroline
12:38:59 <victor> renato: the meaning of "active non active" has been discussed
12:39:18 <victor> renato: ...specially in the context of permissions prohibitions and obligations
12:40:00 <victor> michaelS: I have responded to Ben's comments on Friday, no further counter-answer
12:40:29 <victor> https://github.com/w3c/poe/issues/254
12:41:33 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Evaluator
12:42:39 <victor> renato: I have some problem with reading the evaluator table, as I dont understand specially the outcome of the evaluation
12:43:02 <victor> benws_: the goal is to get the state (active/non-active)
12:43:32 <victor> renato: what is the meaning of "an active rule"?
12:43:43 <victor> benws_: active permission is I can exercise it
12:44:05 <victor> benws_: active prohibition is that I am bound to obey that; obligation the same
12:45:21 <victor> michaelS: (about example 22)
12:45:59 <victor> ...michaelS: I have heard different versions in different calls about this example
12:47:15 <victor> benws_: there is a distinction betweens root-level duties and refinements on rules
12:47:54 <victor> michaelS: I think have we have the same opinion, I understood it differently in the last call
12:48:39 <victor> benws_: constraints in a rule define whether it is active or not, but refinements only "help to".
12:48:52 <victor> renato: the truth table needs narrative text
12:49:41 <victor> benws_: I think we should limit to the test cases, not give further info to implementors
12:50:21 <michaelS> q+
12:50:22 <victor> benws_: Our message to the implementors is: read the im, do the implementation, and pass the tests
12:50:48 <victor> renato: do you mean we dont need to speak about rule processing?
12:50:57 <victor> benws_: that's it. that section is not needed.
12:51:19 <michaelS> q-
12:52:10 <ivan> q+
12:52:12 <victor> michaelS: We have working long on the Section 2.6.8
12:52:33 <victor> michaelS: the section has been discussed on github, not finding opposition
12:53:23 <victor> michaelS: The spec says "an action may include a refinement" but the impact itself on the refinement is not explicitly given
12:53:31 <victor> michaelS: so the truth tables are going too far
12:54:05 <victor> benws_: but without the tables, there is no interoperability
12:54:13 <victor> q+
12:54:46 <victor> ivan: this is the 4th meeting we have on this. my impression is that there is no consensus in the WG.
12:55:17 <victor> ivan: and given that we are in the last minute, we are should take out whatever is conflictive
12:55:25 <benws_> q+
12:55:37 <ivan> ack ivan
12:55:52 <victor> q-
12:55:54 <ivan> ack victor
12:56:06 <ivan> q+
12:56:11 <ivan> ack benws_
12:56:40 <victor> benws_: ...but if we have disagreement in that section, then we don't have guidedance enough
12:56:56 <victor> benws_: I would to have agreement in the tables
12:57:12 <victor> benws_: because this is a warranty for interoperability
12:57:36 <victor> benws_: we need to define "what is a correct implementation"
12:57:45 <renato> q?
12:58:22 <victor> ivan: we have a vocabulary supported by the semantics of RDF. This is an RDF vocabulary
12:58:29 <benws_> q+
12:58:39 <victor> ivan: do we want to have additional semantics to what RDF gives me? and if yes, what is?
12:58:47 <ivan> ack ivan
12:59:06 <victor> renato: example?
12:59:31 <benws_> ack b
12:59:31 <victor> renato: "the IM is the semantics"
13:00:02 <victor> renato: we may remove 2.6.a, putting back some sentences taken from other sections in the spec
13:01:36 <ivan> q+
13:01:42 <renato> q?
13:01:46 <victor> q+
13:02:18 <ivan> q-
13:04:38 <victor> renato: what does it mean "a prohibition" is not active?
13:04:46 <victor> benws_: that nobody is bound by that prohibition.
13:05:33 <victor> benws_: example of temporal restriction: the prohibition is active on Tuesday, but not on Wednesday
13:05:55 <victor> renato: so it means "only applies on a Tuesday"?
13:06:23 <victor> michaelS: if you violate the prohibition, you have a remedy to fulfill. And then is when the conflict appears.
13:06:38 <victor> benws_: if the disagreement is only this small case, we can go further.
13:06:51 <victor> benws_: but if we have further disagreement, then we cannot go to CR
13:07:01 <victor> victor: I agree with the tables
13:07:47 <victor> q-
13:08:00 <victor> renato: i have troubles with the terms themselves
13:08:41 <victor> ivan: do we have a plan?
13:08:41 <CarolineB> q+
13:09:21 <victor> CarolineB: active=should be processed, otherwise=can be ignored
13:09:24 <victor> ?
13:09:30 <victor> benws_: yes
13:10:03 <victor> CarolineB: why dont we choose another word instead of "active/not active"? (just as binary of that, but with other words)
13:10:18 <victor> benws_: the previous effort was "in effect / not in effect"
13:11:10 <victor> michaelS: Complexity arises from constraints being fullfilled/non-fulfilled, which is a sort of active/non-active state too
13:11:37 <victor> benws_: which is the target audience?
13:11:45 <victor> CarolineB: it is me
13:11:50 <victor> benws_: no! the implementors
13:11:51 <LindaB> q+
13:11:58 <victor> CarolineB: but I'll speak to developers
13:12:09 <ivan> ack CarolineB
13:12:11 <victor> benws_: implementors = developers
13:12:12 <CarolineB> q-
13:12:48 <ivan> q+
13:13:11 <victor> q+
13:13:28 <renato> ack LindaB
13:13:36 <ivan> ack LindaB
13:13:49 <victor> LindaB: policy makers must understand the documents and speak to developers
13:14:03 <michaelS> q+
13:14:15 <CarolineB> q+
13:14:24 <renato> ack ivan
13:14:35 <victor> ivan: is the spec correct or no?
13:14:51 <victor> ivan: do the truth tables reflect what there is in IM?
13:15:16 <victor> ivan: we have 4 months to write a Primer to describe a more human readable text
13:15:33 <victor> ivan: are we in the state of going to IM?
13:16:00 <ivan> ack victor
13:16:01 <victor> ivan: I do not care about the terms (this can be discussed later) but I care
13:16:18 <victor> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Validation#Normalization
13:17:55 <ivan> q+
13:18:03 <ivan> ack michaelS
13:18:08 <victor> victor: the 75 policy examples in http://odrlapi.appspot.com/ are very useful
13:18:08 <renato> ack michaelS
13:18:17 <benws_> q+
13:18:23 <victor> CarolineB:
13:18:54 <victor> CarolineB: is there agreement on the IM ?
13:19:05 <victor> benws_: We only fight on example 24
13:19:09 <renato> ack CarolineB
13:19:51 <CarolineB> q-
13:19:53 <benws_> ack b
13:20:07 <victor> CarolineB: permitted/non-permitted as the equivalent to active non-active in Permissions.
13:20:24 <victor> ivan: editorial changes are possible but not recommended if we go further with the process
13:20:25 <michaelS> q+
13:21:03 <renato> ack ivan
13:21:07 <victor> ivan: the reading of some specs is incredibly complex, and they can be supplemented by Primers (but we should avoid that if possible)
13:21:39 <victor> ivan: benws_ said "example 24 is a small issue" but I see too many issues in the github
13:21:45 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/1
13:22:13 <victor> victor: sI open about 6-8 of them, and all of them "minor"
13:22:22 <victor> victor: but there is no tag for "minor"
13:23:10 <victor> renato: we pay attention to the project table instead
13:23:22 <renato> All open issues to be closed
13:23:23 <victor> ivan: we cannot go to the director with this amount of open issues
13:23:31 <renato> q?
13:24:27 <victor> michaelS: what is the impact of constraint and refinement? this is perhaps what is missing in the "constraint property"
13:24:43 <victor> michaelS: ...this is the section that perhaps can be improved instead.
13:25:29 <victor> victor: why dont we have another call Ben/Renato/Michael right now or tomorrow? (and others, i.e., I would like to join as well)
13:25:56 <victor> ivan: this change would lead to a second CR
13:26:16 <victor> michaelS: it is not a crucial change, it is just "clarifying"
13:26:31 <victor> benws_: we make explicit what was implicit
13:26:37 <victor> ivan: this is a very fine line
13:26:58 <victor> renato: we did take out a couple of sentences from the spec in order to create the "rule processing" section. so it would be simply reverting changes.
13:27:45 <victor> q+
13:28:04 <michaelS> q-
13:28:07 <ivan> ack michaelS
13:28:10 <renato> ack victor
13:28:17 <victor> https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Validation
13:28:20 <benws_> q+
13:28:47 <michaelS> q+
13:29:11 <victor> benws: why dont we meet on Thursday?
13:29:16 <CarolineB> good for me
13:30:10 <victor> victor: please review the list of normalization transformations and validations that I have extracted from the specs and implemented. https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Validation
13:30:14 <victor> michaelS: what is the schedule?
13:30:20 <victor> michaelS: what about Thursday?
13:30:38 <victor> ivan: if it is on Thursday, there must be quorum
13:30:55 <victor> ivan: at least a number of people should be there
13:31:21 <victor> ivan: besides, I canno join (even if my presence is unimportant)
13:31:40 <victor> ivan: please inform me on the time if you meet
13:31:58 <victor> LindaB: 8.30 New York time is fine
13:32:13 <victor> ivan: and dont forget closing the issues
13:32:56 <renato> todo: remove section 2.6.8 and add some narrative back into the specific sections
13:33:04 <victor> ivan: how much time do we need for the CR?
13:33:11 <victor> ivan: the test period, I mean
13:33:24 <victor> RESOLUTION: remove section 2.6.8 and add some narrative back into the specific sections
13:33:40 <renato> Next call: Thursday 14 Sept 12:30 GMT
13:33:58 <victor> ivan: and on Friday, emails have to be sent
13:34:02 <victor> q-
13:34:12 <michaelS> q-
13:34:17 <benws_> ack b
13:34:18 <victor> renato: AOB?
13:35:02 <victor> michaelS: who will implement the changes in the last resolution?
13:35:05 <victor> renato: I will
13:35:16 <victor> michaelS: please make sure it is ready by Thursday morning
13:36:30 <victor> victor: 22.30 at Renato's, 8.30 Linda's and Victor, 13.30 Ben, 14.30 Michael and Simon
13:36:41 <victor> renato: what shall we do with example 22
13:36:57 <victor> benws_: oh, no it is correct
13:37:53 <victor> michaelS: please read the draft mails
13:38:05 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:38:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/11-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:38:13 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
13:38:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
13:38:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been LindaB, ivan, renato, MichaelS, victor, benws_, caroline
13:38:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:38:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/11-poe-minutes.html trackbot
13:38:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
13:38:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items