16:51:16 RRSAgent has joined #editing 16:51:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-editing-irc 16:58:54 rrsagent, make log public 16:59:27 rrsagent, please stay 16:59:48 chaals has joined #editing 17:02:17 Zakim has joined #editing 17:02:44 tink has joined #editing 17:02:46 Present+ Chaals, Grisha, Johannes, Léonie 17:02:55 Meeting: Editing TF 17:03:01 Scribe: chaals 17:03:02 present+ 17:03:04 chair: Johannes 17:03:39 Topic: Getting people to meetings 17:03:53 s/Getting people to meetings/@@/ 17:04:03 agenda? 17:04:34 agenda+ Input Events and UI events 17:04:40 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-editing-tf/2017Sep/0000.html 17:05:09 Topic: querycommand supported 17:05:35 JW: Chrome says queryCommand(ṕaste´) comes out true even when it will not work 17:05:52 ... should it be true if paste is supported, or if it is supported *here* 17:06:00 GL: Should be true if it is supported 17:06:15 JW: Chrome only supports it for extensions, never for regular scripts - for security 17:06:28 GL: Trying to think of a use case. 17:06:53 ... trying to see if it is generally supported. If Chrome returns true outside an extension... ?? 17:06:58 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=757140#c4 17:07:01 ... What is the problem? 17:07:13 JW: Bug report. Someone tried to make an editor and use it. 17:07:34 ... and Chrome answering true makes it hard to key off reality. 17:07:55 JW: Yosin says the spec is not clear... 17:08:11 ... Ryosuke thinks it is a bug in Chrome. 17:10:18 CMN: Iḿ with Grisha that it is OK if it fails to work in a given instance but returns true, but if for example you are in a different security environment and that means it will always or never work, it should return accordingly. 17:11:04 GL: querySupported should return true if tehre is an API, assuming that you are in an environment where it will work - i.e.e different security levels get different answers. 17:11:09 s/e.e/e 17:11:31 JW: Should we say that if it will always fail, then it must be false in that environment? 17:11:56 GL: Web developers want to know if it works now, but if we say that it returns false, then people can assume that flase will be false all the time. 17:12:00 s/flase/false 17:12:30 JW: If tyhe tool finds paste is not supported, then it needs to do a bunch of work to trell the user how to make a paste. That is at least one common use case. 17:12:46 ... what people will do is learn Chrome does not support paste and assume that means never. 17:14:37 CMN: This is the complexity of feature testing. In this case, telling devs on the open web that something will not work is OK, because the only developers that can use it are those working more closely, with extensions. On the open web it will not work anyway. 17:14:49 GL: What about trusted domains? It is similar... 17:15:06 JW: You cannot change the domain when you are on a page, so you are wherever you started. 17:15:11 GL: Yep. That works. 17:15:41 RESOLUTION: Spec should say that supported should be false if you are in an environment where you are always going to fail. 17:16:18 Topic: When do input and beforeinput events trigger? 17:16:43 JW: In UI events it says when the DOM is going to change, in Input Events it is more detailed. SHould it be in both specs, how do we fit it in? 17:17:45 CMN: I think it should be into the UI events spec - that is where people look when they are trying to undertstand the whole ordering... 17:18:42 JW: Input event spec describes the whole event, UI events describes when the thing is triggered. They do not want to bloat the UI Event spec but what it says is not quite right. 17:18:55 JW: SHould be the same text in both. 17:19:20 GL: It fires on combination of DOM going to change as the result of a user action (the second bit is missing) 17:19:33 JW: So can we ask UI events to adopt our text on that? 17:19:47 GL: Yep, that makes sense for consistency. Open an issue on UI events? 17:19:57 LJW: Seems like the best approach. 17:20:06 JW: Did, but no response 17:20:17 LJW: I can chase that for you 17:20:29 Topic: Safari changes to input events... colour and justification 17:20:57 JW: We were asked by TAG to change the definition of colors for text and backgrounds. I think only Safari does it. 17:21:10 ... we have simple RGB colours and they want to add transparency. 17:21:22 ... I would just say Yes... 17:21:26 CMN: WfM 17:21:31 GL: No strong opinion 17:22:03 JW: Full justification - we have left-, right- and center-justified, and they want full-justification. 17:22:25 ... Why do we say left/right instead of left-align? Because some people say that... 17:22:44 ... simplest change is to add full-justification 17:23:01 LJW: If we move to left-align is that a hassle? 17:23:19 JW: Probably - this is out in the wild already, so we would have to support them still. 17:24:05 LW: Devs would understand left-align better... 17:24:26 CMN: Yes. If we make the change, how long do we have to support dual tokens? forever? 17:24:52 JW: We have agreement to add full-justification, but adding left-align would be a new step... 17:25:45 ... do we want to take those steps? 17:27:30 CMN: I can live with only adding full-justification and not changing the others... 17:27:38 RESOLUTION: Add full-justification. 17:27:51 Topic: Microsoft´s Sticker idea 17:28:10 JW: Had some pushback. CKEditor liked it, @@ sai they would probably use it. 17:28:16 s/sai/said 17:28:35 ... some dictionary-like website did not see the point. They do not want smileys, stickers, etc. 17:28:54 GL: This can be any rich content, not just stickers but music, video, etc. 17:29:01 q+ 17:29:24 ... depends on how we will implement - how to handle e.g. paste of an image going through a data blob to get the right format, etc. 17:29:42 ... or is it a straight insertion and the browser will create the element it wants and reference the image. 17:30:18 JW: My communication was stickers are something apart from normal paste which you could already do, but if this included some metadata to let you do more that might be interesting. 17:30:50 ... you have to think about it because if you have lots of types of things you want to support you will find people not doingit, but if there are say 5, then people will. 17:31:01 ... maybe you should continue to work on it. 17:31:18 GL: This is not urgent, just trying to figure out a path for this and if it should go into beforeInput 17:31:43 ... and from there declare the metadata and work through the use cases. 17:31:54 JW: Seems like beforeInpout is a proper spot for it 17:32:14 LW: This sounbds like a substantial feature - is it worth letting it come in a later version? 17:32:27 GL: Absolutely - at this stage it is pretty much investigation. 17:33:26 CMN: Feels like something between paste and beforeInput... 17:33:44 JW: Editors want to get the information about what they are actually receiving... 17:34:11 GL: We could use a clone of the clipboard object, with a separate entity so as not to override the clipboard 17:34:26 ... and reuse the object without going through the clipboard. 17:34:32 JW: Similar to DnD? 17:34:37 GL: Yeah, probably. 17:35:09 ... or we can do different things. But that has infrastructure already so sort of makes sense. But as a Wb Dev it will be treated something like a paste object. 17:35:31 JW: So if web deve listens to beforeInput you get drag, or paste, or enriched input with metadata. 17:35:43 ... and that is where you find the extra metadata. 17:36:22 GL: So, if I want to play with the spec and make changes, should I just fork it and make PRs or just make proposals on GH Issues? 17:36:36 JW: I would be in favour of you making a fork and Pull Requests... 17:37:25 GL: question on shipping. Feature should be operational, not just behind a flag, to count for interoperability. 17:39:20 CMN: Depends. If all implementations are behind flags there is more attention to why. Basically it depends how strong the implementation interop story is... 17:39:34 Topic: TPAC 17:40:03 JW: There are some other initial points in the email for the TPAC agenda - we will keep building it as we go. 17:40:26 RRSagent, draft minutes 17:40:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/09/05-editing-minutes.html chaals