IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2017-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:03:45 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/08/03-mobile-a11y-irc
15:03:47 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:03:47 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
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ok, trackbot
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Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
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Date: 03 August 2017
15:04:06 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
15:04:15 [shadi]
present+
15:04:17 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:04:20 [chriscm]
present+
15:05:54 [Kim]
Agenda+ Touch base about SC's
15:05:56 [Kim]
Agenda+ Understanding Documentation and Techniques
15:05:57 [Kim]
Target Size
15:05:59 [Kim]
Change of Content
15:06:00 [Kim]
Character Key Shortcuts
15:06:02 [Kim]
Orientation
15:06:03 [Kim]
Agenda+ Next steps and schedule
15:06:05 [Kim]
Agenda+. Second half – join the WCAG call
15:06:21 [Kim]
TOPIC: Update
15:06:37 [Kim]
Kathy: 4 outstanding Scs
15:06:51 [Kim]
Kathy: pointer gestures 61 will go out with note
15:07:22 [Kim]
Kathy: device sensors, pointer gestures with additional, concurrent input mechanisms
15:07:25 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/MATFSC_june/results
15:07:52 [Kim]
Kathy: I thought it would be good on this call to get thoughts around what people's comments were
15:08:21 [marcjohlic]
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15:08:30 [Kim]
Kathy: concurrent input mechanisms – 11 comments
15:08:49 [Kim]
Kathy: I think what's going to come up on the call – do we see this problem in real websites
15:09:14 [Kim]
Kathy: I'm not sure people are looking at github comments
15:09:30 [Kathy]
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/64
15:09:40 [chriscm2006]
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15:11:41 [Kim]
Kathy: Patrick's point is very valid and I ran into that client site recently where only touch. But will fail 2.1.1 if have only done touch
15:12:39 [Kim]
Kathy: this is saying the user should be able to switch what input method that they are using. So if I start using mouse I can switch over to keyboard, I can go to touch, I can go back to keyboard. I can do certain things with certain types of input mechanisms. I don't have to stay using the keyboard or only the keyboard but I should be able to go between the different input mechanisms that...
15:12:41 [Kim]
...are currently available for the site.
15:13:04 [Kim]
Kathy: we are not saying that if the site doesn't allow for touch use it all that they have to have touch. We are saying that for the input device or mortality that is not restricted by the content, to allow the user to switch to those modalities at any point
15:13:47 [Kim]
Kathy: I think it's important to note that we did change the success criteria language
15:14:34 [chriscm]
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15:14:40 [Kim]
Kathy: we are basically saying that if a user has started to use something – if they start to use keyboard it shouldn't restrict what they may do with other input devices
15:16:50 [Kim]
Kathy: some of survey comments are old. Greg's comment was the changes we had. People were saying it was hard to test so we restricted that – we've changed the language completely. Jason's comment, changed Andrews comment about who is impacted – it can be an issue for everybody but there are use cases. Michael's comment – we changed. David is saying we have significant problems with...
15:16:52 [Kim]
...testability – that's new
15:18:35 [Kim]
Marc: John's comment about security – same thing comes up on a lot of SCs
15:19:37 [Kim]
Kathy: as far as testability goes I think David's point is that he's worried about how can we test every function by switching to a different input method. this means that we would need to – if the system allowed you to use a keyboard and a mouse and touch we would need to test all of those different combinations to make sure that it still worked. So I'd have to go from keyboard to touch...
15:19:38 [Kim]
...I'd have to go from keyboard to mouse I'd have to go from mouse to keyboard and mouse to touch. So we have three that means we have nine different combinations.
15:19:43 [Kim]
Chris: that becomes a disaster very quickly
15:19:54 [Kim]
Chris: the number of input mechanisms factorial would be the combination that you have to test
15:20:10 [Kim]
Kathy: it is testable – it's not that it's not testable. It's that there are a lot of combinations
15:20:56 [Kim]
Chris: can we go over one of the standard use cases again? I'm thinking of testability for a standard use case. Motivation being with testability if you can transition from one to the other do you then assume you can transition to the rest – just testing one would be reasonable. I don't know if we can conclude that or not but if we can it would make testability much more reasonable
15:22:00 [Kim]
Kathy: it's no different– shifting backward using keyboard you may hit a keyboard trap, just that one thing. If you have it across all the platforms in all the browsers you're going to have different results on different browsers
15:22:12 [Kim]
Chris: can we pick a combination that they support anyway
15:22:53 [Kim]
Kathy: that's part of the report – we don't tell people in 2.1 that they have to testing all the different browsers. Here, same thing given the input modalities that they're using they should be able to switch between them. We don't tell people that no matter what keyboard interface there using they have to test for all the keyboard interfaces either
15:24:07 [Kim]
Kathy we are not talking about user agents or specifying which input mechanisms they are using or not using
15:24:29 [Kim]
Shadi: how do we test for whether it supports mouse or not
15:24:44 [Kim]
Kathy: that's where we get into accessibility support – certain browsers, assistive technologies – kind of the same
15:25:14 [Kim]
Shadi: implicitly we are requiring mouse support here and WcAG doesn't support that
15:25:35 [Kim]
Kathy: we are just saying that not restricted
15:27:56 [Kim]
Kathy: another thing we could do is with this is a AAA requirement instead of a AA
15:28:36 [Kim]
Chris: that makes sense – the line of thinking if this works, then most should work. That seems like a user agent problem. If you support a, B, C individually and a scenario were combining them breaks I believe that is a failure of the user agent and not the developer of the given application
15:28:48 [Kim]
Kathy: but you can do a touch only event and not have it work with the other input – it is also developer
15:29:35 [Kim]
Chris: yes, but there's an aspect of this – make sure it works with touch, mouse, keyboard. That's fine that's the developer's responsibility. There's the other aspect of this that is I'm using my mouse for a while and then suddenly I switch to touch. What I'm suggesting is the combinations don't need to be tested because if a combination breaks it's the user agent's fault it's the...
15:29:37 [Kim]
...developer only needs to individually test each individual input and if they're using conjunction and combination that is a user agent failure
15:29:54 [Kim]
Kathy: exactly, that's why we put in the language that it's not restricted. That's what we put into address that exact point. That also came up on the call.
15:30:41 [Kim]
Kathy: your point is interesting – we are not saying you have to test for every combination, we just want assurance that you're not doing it restricted. So the test case is just to make sure you're not using things for touch only or keyboard only. 4
15:30:48 [Kim]
Chris: that exists already
15:31:21 [Kim]
Kathy: keyboard only, but this is expanding it further – yes we agree that keyboard is important but it is not the only and primary that everybody is interacting today – for mobile were not assuming everybody has a keyboard.. If we were restricting it to only keyboard we've got a problem. The users may want to go between using keyboard and touch
15:32:23 [Kim]
Kathy: if we get through this one we've only got one outstanding left – pointer inputs with additional sensors
15:32:55 [Kim]
Shadi: I think it's just a matter of the wording
15:33:07 [Kim]
Kathy: the key is not that it has to, just were not restricting it
15:33:48 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/08/03-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
15:36:56 [Kim]
Present+ Marc
15:37:05 [Kim]
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