IRC log of poe on 2017-05-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:06:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #poe
11:06:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-irc
11:06:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:06:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #poe
11:06:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
11:06:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
11:06:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
11:06:55 [trackbot]
Date: 29 May 2017
11:06:58 [ivan]
Chair: Renato
11:07:06 [ivan]
Regrets: Ben, Phil, Sabrina
11:07:28 [ivan]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
11:14:16 [benws15]
benws15 has joined #poe
11:17:41 [benws16]
benws16 has joined #poe
11:59:55 [victor]
victor has joined #poe
12:05:39 [simonstey]
simonstey has joined #poe
12:21:29 [Serena]
Serena has joined #poe
12:23:32 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
12:24:43 [simonstey]
who's francois?
12:26:37 [renato]
I am host now...
12:26:44 [renato]
Will zap him....
12:29:16 [renato]
trackbot, start meeting
12:29:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:29:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
12:29:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:29:22 [trackbot]
Date: 29 May 2017
12:29:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:29:23 [simonstey_]
simonstey_ has joined #poe
12:29:27 [renato]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:29:36 [renato]
RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
12:29:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
12:29:46 [renato]
present+
12:29:50 [renato]
Chair: Renato
12:30:33 [michaelS]
michaelS has joined #poe
12:31:04 [renato]
Regrets: Phil, Sabrina, Ivan, Ben
12:31:10 [michaelS]
present+
12:31:27 [renato]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
12:31:29 [simonstey_]
present+
12:31:43 [victor]
present+
12:31:55 [renato]
Regrets: - Ivan
12:32:07 [ivan]
present+
12:33:10 [victor]
i can scribe
12:33:11 [victor]
if you like
12:33:18 [simonstey_]
regrets+ Sabrina, benws, phila
12:33:18 [victor]
scribe: victor
12:33:39 [michaelS]
scribenick: victor
12:34:05 [victor]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
12:34:20 [renato]
https://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-poe-minutes
12:34:25 [renato]
https://www.w3.org/2017/05/19-poe-minutes
12:34:41 [victor]
topic: approve last meetings' minutes (18th and 19th)
12:35:29 [victor]
michaelS: readability has suffered with the new minutes' formatter
12:36:03 [victor]
ivan: this behaviour was chosen by a specific tester
12:36:16 [victor]
michaelS: some comments appear as anonymous while they weren't
12:37:32 [victor]
victor: comments have to be prefixed by author or prefixed by three dots...
12:37:54 [victor]
simon: (the same)
12:38:19 [victor]
renato: appart from that issue... is there anything else?
12:38:34 [michaelS]
+2
12:38:47 [victor]
+1
12:38:51 [Serena]
+1
12:38:56 [renato]
+1
12:39:13 [victor]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of the last two meetings' minutes (London) approved.
12:39:45 [victor]
renato: I have prepared a short summary for those not attending the meeting (not in person, not at WebEx)
12:40:55 [victor]
topic: Clarification of the new properties narrowThan and alsoRequired
12:42:03 [victor]
simon: I was commissioned to prepare a specific document, but still need to know if this is necessary for the IM or to the vocab.
12:42:56 [victor]
renato: whereas for Action these properties seem natural, for Asset and Party ... are these properties appropriate?
12:44:04 [victor]
simon: there are examples for both: narrower Parties can be imagined: something defined for a broader party it should apply to the narrower parties.
12:45:56 [victor]
simon: blank nodes play a role here. A blank node describing a party can have some constraints, and its meaning being "any individual satisfying that constraint".
12:45:59 [michaelS]
q+
12:47:20 [victor]
victor: (only type this) - Whereas I agree with this idea, because it is an incredibly practical solution (which I have also adopted), please note that the meaning of the RDF graph does not mean exactly the same, does not mean "any individual" but "one individual)
12:47:49 [victor]
simon: memberOf as an equivalent to narrowThan
12:48:59 [michaelS]
q-
12:49:02 [victor]
michaelS: When speaking about "UK residents of W3C", the precise sense of the relation is important (narrowThan/ broaderThan)
12:49:30 [victor]
simonstey: partOf is more general
12:50:00 [victor]
renato: partOf sounds better
12:50:31 [victor]
simonstey: on the 18th we decided on this, already. do we still need that?
12:50:48 [victor]
simonstey: do we still need to have Collection?
12:51:13 [michaelS]
q+
12:52:03 [victor]
simonstey: philA was meaning URI referring to a collection was fine as a mention to the group itself, not as a reference to each of the individuals.
12:52:58 [victor]
renato: what about AssetGroup?
12:53:08 [victor]
michaelS: then AssetItem, AssetItems
12:53:20 [victor]
simonstey: the plural S can be easily overlooked
12:54:50 [victor]
victor: (only chat, not aloud) as an external reference for the ontology, there was a trivial ontology design pattern with carefully chosen definitions; see http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/cp/owl/partof.owl
12:55:12 [michaelS]
ack
12:55:20 [michaelS]
ack m
12:55:36 [victor]
simonstey: in the F2F we mentioned there would be Asset individuals and Asset collections as the only subclass that can be constrained (?)
12:56:29 [victor]
simonstey: only asset collections can have parts. A single asset cannot.
12:57:41 [victor]
simonstey: There are also roles. I can image a policy applying to the role "Mother", e.g., any woman having given birth.
12:58:02 [victor]
simonstey: then, is then a particular woman a mother?
12:59:45 [renato]
proposal: rename narrowerThan to partOf for Asset and Party and remove AssetIndividual and PartyIndividual
13:00:00 [simonstey_]
+1
13:00:04 [renato]
+1
13:00:10 [victor]
+1
13:00:13 [ivan]
0
13:00:24 [michaelS]
+1
13:01:15 [victor]
ivan: this discussion should also consider philA and the semantics being discussed more thoroughly
13:01:36 [victor]
simonstey: we have proposed the weak version; not removing Collection nor anything else.
13:01:49 [victor]
ivan: which was philA's point?
13:02:01 [Serena]
+1 (sorry I didn't press ENTER)
13:02:08 [victor]
simonstey: you cannot say the target pointing to a dataset applies to each url identifying a dataset's part.
13:02:54 [renato]
file:///Users/renato/users/odrl/W3C-POE/GIT-POE/model/index.html#constraint-asset
13:03:08 [renato]
http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#constraint-asset
13:04:17 [renato]
resolved: rename narrowerThan to partOf for Asset and Party and remove AssetIndividual and PartyIndividual
13:04:17 [victor]
resolution: approved
13:05:25 [victor]
victor: (only posted, not aloud, provides an example for the constraint assets https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Best_Practices#9._How_to_constrain_assets_and_parties)
13:05:46 [victor]
topic: The property requiredBy
13:06:51 [victor]
simonstey: Example: I can do something, Sabrina cant, according to a odrl policy. But for me to do an action, I need her.
13:06:54 [michaelS]
q+
13:07:21 [victor]
simonsey: for actions, it is trivial. "If you want to share an asset, you need to reproduce it".
13:09:19 [victor]
simonstey: in absence of additional constrain, if I can share I can reproduce and distribute.
13:10:01 [victor]
michaelS: the word "requires" suggests there must be an explicit extra statement
13:10:28 [victor]
michaelS: the default is now that "things not prohibitted, are prohibitted", if affected by this property
13:10:44 [victor]
victor: (not aloud): what about implies?
13:11:00 [victor]
"odrl:implies"
13:11:49 [victor]
simonstey: At least the triple "odrl:share odrl:implies odrl:distribute" makes sense.
13:12:36 [victor]
simonstey: but for parties/asset we may not need this.
13:13:07 [michaelS_]
michaelS_ has joined #poe
13:13:34 [victor]
victor: software dependencies may be another example for "requires for assets"
13:15:04 [victor]
simonstey: are you thinking of software libraries?
13:15:19 [renato]
RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:15:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
13:16:26 [victor]
renato: software are not necessarily "partOf" but other sort of relation
13:18:05 [victor]
victor: example of GPL tainting other software residing in the same CD in which a GPLed software is distributed.
13:19:06 [victor]
simonstey: the software case is complex and not clear. is it very application specific?
13:20:28 [victor]
simonstey: If you have two policies for software A and software B,
13:21:01 [victor]
you have no conflict per se
13:21:29 [victor]
renato: what about party?
13:23:15 [victor]
simonstey: I recall the example of the mother
13:23:41 [victor]
renato: let us ask Sabrina for useful examples
13:23:52 [victor]
renato: we leave it now unvoted.
13:24:04 [victor]
simonstey: the discussion here is about roles.
13:24:25 [victor]
simonstey: in the airport's case, we have here "responsibleOf"
13:24:49 [victor]
renato: another example about printing.
13:25:32 [victor]
renato: we need more thought.
13:25:37 [renato]
proposal: rename alsoRequires to implies for Action
13:25:44 [simonstey_]
+1
13:25:47 [renato]
+1
13:26:11 [Serena]
+1
13:26:19 [michaelS_]
+0.9
13:26:27 [victor]
+1 (conscious of the simplistic approach, not considering temporal info: pre-implication, post-implication, etc.)
13:26:41 [ivan]
0 (neutral)
13:26:46 [renato]
resolved: rename alsoRequires to implies for Action
13:26:47 [victor]
makingOmelette pre-implies breakingEggs
13:27:31 [renato]
https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/1
13:28:59 [victor]
/me did not fully catch Renato's comment
13:29:46 [victor]
renato: michaelS volunteer as RightsML examples-provider
13:30:05 [victor]
simonstey: does RightsML deprecate any ODRL feature?
13:30:59 [victor]
michaelS: In the context of the split of vocabulary (common vocabulary etc.), it was said "if a profile wants to adopt a term, it has to be said explicitly"
13:31:35 [victor]
simonstey: but will profiles be able to rename key terms like "Prohibition" (for example using "Ban")
13:31:40 [victor]
...?
13:31:49 [victor]
michaelS: RightsML did not do anything like that.
13:32:14 [victor]
renato: AOB?
13:32:20 [victor]
michaelS: regret the next Monday
13:32:28 [victor]
s/regret/regrets
13:32:53 [Serena]
Serena has left #poe
13:33:04 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:33:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:33:05 [renato]
RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:33:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
13:33:08 [victor]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:33:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html victor
13:33:34 [renato]
same minds ;-)
13:34:14 [renato]
doing it again to see the V2 format
13:34:16 [renato]
RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:34:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
13:36:17 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
14:09:17 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
15:40:23 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
16:35:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #poe
17:09:31 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
18:41:00 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
20:05:43 [benws16]
benws16 has joined #poe
20:09:07 [benws17]
benws17 has joined #poe
20:09:07 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
21:39:35 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
23:10:00 [renato]
renato has joined #poe
23:35:56 [renato]
renato has joined #poe