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11:06:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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11:06:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
11:06:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
11:06:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
11:06:55 <trackbot> Date: 29 May 2017
11:06:58 <ivan> Chair: Renato
11:07:06 <ivan> Regrets: Ben, Phil, Sabrina
11:07:28 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
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12:24:43 <simonstey> who's francois?
12:26:37 <renato> I am host now...
12:26:44 <renato> Will zap him....
12:29:16 <renato> trackbot, start meeting
12:29:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:29:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:29:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Permissions and Obligations Expression Working Group Teleconference
12:29:22 <trackbot> Date: 29 May 2017
12:29:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
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12:29:27 <renato> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:29:36 <renato> RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
12:29:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
12:29:46 <renato> present+
12:29:50 <renato> Chair: Renato
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12:31:04 <renato> Regrets: Phil, Sabrina, Ivan, Ben
12:31:10 <michaelS> present+
12:31:27 <renato> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
12:31:29 <simonstey_> present+
12:31:43 <victor> present+
12:31:55 <renato> Regrets: - Ivan
12:32:07 <ivan> present+
12:33:10 <victor> i can scribe
12:33:11 <victor> if you like
12:33:18 <simonstey_> regrets+ Sabrina, benws, phila
12:33:18 <victor> scribe: victor
12:33:39 <michaelS> scribenick: victor
12:34:05 <victor> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20170529
12:34:20 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/05/18-poe-minutes
12:34:25 <renato> https://www.w3.org/2017/05/19-poe-minutes
12:34:41 <victor> topic: approve last meetings' minutes (18th and 19th)
12:35:29 <victor> michaelS: readability has suffered with the new minutes' formatter
12:36:03 <victor> ivan: this behaviour was chosen by a specific tester
12:36:16 <victor> michaelS: some comments appear as anonymous while they weren't
12:37:32 <victor> victor: comments have to be prefixed by author or prefixed by three dots...
12:37:54 <victor> simon: (the same)
12:38:19 <victor> renato: appart from that issue... is there anything else?
12:38:34 <michaelS> +2
12:38:47 <victor> +1
12:38:51 <Serena> +1
12:38:56 <renato> +1
12:39:13 <victor> RESOLUTION: Minutes of the last two meetings' minutes (London) approved.
12:39:45 <victor> renato: I have prepared a short summary for those not attending the meeting (not in person, not at WebEx)
12:40:55 <victor> topic: Clarification of the new properties narrowThan and alsoRequired
12:42:03 <victor> simon: I was commissioned to prepare a specific document, but still need to know if this is necessary for the IM or to the vocab.
12:42:56 <victor> renato: whereas for Action these properties seem natural, for Asset and Party ... are these properties appropriate?
12:44:04 <victor> simon: there are examples for both: narrower Parties can be imagined: something defined for a broader party it should apply to the narrower parties.
12:45:56 <victor> simon: blank nodes play a role here. A blank node describing a party can have some constraints, and its meaning being "any individual satisfying that constraint".
12:45:59 <michaelS> q+
12:47:20 <victor> victor: (only type this) - Whereas I agree with this idea, because it is an incredibly practical solution (which I have also adopted), please note that the meaning of the RDF graph does not mean exactly the same, does not mean "any individual" but "one individual)
12:47:49 <victor> simon: memberOf as an equivalent to narrowThan
12:48:59 <michaelS> q-
12:49:02 <victor> michaelS: When speaking about "UK residents of W3C", the precise sense of the relation is important (narrowThan/ broaderThan)
12:49:30 <victor> simonstey: partOf is more general
12:50:00 <victor> renato: partOf sounds better
12:50:31 <victor> simonstey: on the 18th we decided on this, already. do we still need that?
12:50:48 <victor> simonstey: do we still need to have Collection?
12:51:13 <michaelS> q+
12:52:03 <victor> simonstey: philA was meaning URI referring to a collection was fine as a mention to the group itself, not as a reference to each of the individuals.
12:52:58 <victor> renato: what about AssetGroup?
12:53:08 <victor> michaelS: then AssetItem, AssetItems
12:53:20 <victor> simonstey: the plural S can be easily overlooked
12:54:50 <victor> victor: (only chat, not aloud) as an external reference for the ontology, there was a trivial ontology design pattern with carefully chosen definitions; see http://www.ontologydesignpatterns.org/cp/owl/partof.owl
12:55:12 <michaelS> ack
12:55:20 <michaelS> ack m
12:55:36 <victor> simonstey: in the F2F we mentioned there would be Asset individuals and Asset collections as the only subclass that can be constrained (?)
12:56:29 <victor> simonstey: only asset collections can have parts. A single asset cannot.
12:57:41 <victor> simonstey: There are also roles. I can image a policy applying to the role "Mother", e.g., any woman having given birth.
12:58:02 <victor> simonstey: then, is then a particular woman a mother?
12:59:45 <renato> proposal: rename narrowerThan to partOf for Asset and Party and remove AssetIndividual and PartyIndividual
13:00:00 <simonstey_> +1
13:00:04 <renato> +1
13:00:10 <victor> +1
13:00:13 <ivan> 0
13:00:24 <michaelS> +1
13:01:15 <victor> ivan: this discussion should also consider philA and the semantics being discussed more thoroughly
13:01:36 <victor> simonstey: we have proposed the weak version; not removing Collection nor anything else.
13:01:49 <victor> ivan: which was philA's point?
13:02:01 <Serena> +1 (sorry I didn't press ENTER)
13:02:08 <victor> simonstey: you cannot say the target pointing to a dataset applies to each url identifying a dataset's part.
13:02:54 <renato> file:///Users/renato/users/odrl/W3C-POE/GIT-POE/model/index.html#constraint-asset
13:03:08 <renato> http://w3c.github.io/poe/model/#constraint-asset
13:04:17 <renato> resolved: rename narrowerThan to partOf for Asset and Party and remove AssetIndividual and PartyIndividual
13:04:17 <victor> resolution: approved
13:05:25 <victor> victor: (only posted, not aloud, provides an example for the constraint assets https://www.w3.org/2016/poe/wiki/Best_Practices#9._How_to_constrain_assets_and_parties)
13:05:46 <victor> topic: The property requiredBy
13:06:51 <victor> simonstey: Example: I can do something, Sabrina cant, according to a odrl policy. But for me to do an action, I need her.
13:06:54 <michaelS> q+
13:07:21 <victor> simonsey: for actions, it is trivial. "If you want to share an asset, you need to reproduce it".
13:09:19 <victor> simonstey: in absence of additional constrain, if I can share I can reproduce and distribute.
13:10:01 <victor> michaelS: the word "requires" suggests there must be an explicit extra statement
13:10:28 <victor> michaelS: the default is now that "things not prohibitted, are prohibitted", if affected by this property
13:10:44 <victor> victor: (not aloud): what about implies?
13:11:00 <victor> "odrl:implies"
13:11:49 <victor> simonstey: At least the triple "odrl:share odrl:implies odrl:distribute" makes sense.
13:12:36 <victor> simonstey: but for parties/asset we may not need this.
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13:13:34 <victor> victor: software dependencies may be another example for "requires for assets"
13:15:04 <victor> simonstey: are you thinking of software libraries?
13:15:19 <renato> RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:15:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
13:16:26 <victor> renato: software are not necessarily "partOf" but other sort of relation
13:18:05 <victor> victor: example of GPL tainting other software residing in the same CD in which a GPLed software is distributed.
13:19:06 <victor> simonstey: the software case is complex and not clear. is it very application specific?
13:20:28 <victor> simonstey: If you have two policies for software A and software B,
13:21:01 <victor> you have no conflict per se
13:21:29 <victor> renato: what about party?
13:23:15 <victor> simonstey: I recall the example of the mother
13:23:41 <victor> renato: let us ask Sabrina for useful examples
13:23:52 <victor> renato: we leave it now unvoted.
13:24:04 <victor> simonstey: the discussion here is about roles.
13:24:25 <victor> simonstey: in the airport's case, we have here "responsibleOf"
13:24:49 <victor> renato: another example about printing.
13:25:32 <victor> renato: we need more thought.
13:25:37 <renato> proposal: rename alsoRequires to implies for Action
13:25:44 <simonstey_> +1
13:25:47 <renato> +1
13:26:11 <Serena> +1
13:26:19 <michaelS_> +0.9
13:26:27 <victor> +1 (conscious of the simplistic approach, not considering temporal info: pre-implication, post-implication, etc.)
13:26:41 <ivan> 0 (neutral)
13:26:46 <renato> resolved: rename alsoRequires to implies for Action
13:26:47 <victor> makingOmelette pre-implies breakingEggs
13:27:31 <renato> https://github.com/w3c/poe/projects/1
13:28:59 <victor>  /me did not fully catch Renato's comment
13:29:46 <victor> renato: michaelS volunteer as RightsML examples-provider
13:30:05 <victor> simonstey: does RightsML deprecate any ODRL feature?
13:30:59 <victor> michaelS: In the context of the split of vocabulary (common vocabulary etc.), it was said "if a profile wants to adopt a term, it has to be said explicitly"
13:31:35 <victor> simonstey: but will profiles be able to rename key terms like "Prohibition" (for example using "Ban")
13:31:40 <victor> ...?
13:31:49 <victor> michaelS: RightsML did not do anything like that.
13:32:14 <victor> renato: AOB?
13:32:20 <victor> michaelS: regret the next Monday
13:32:28 <victor> s/regret/regrets
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13:33:04 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:33:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html ivan
13:33:05 <renato> RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:33:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
13:33:08 <victor> rrsagent, generate minutes
13:33:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html victor
13:33:34 <renato> same minds ;-)
13:34:14 <renato> doing it again to see the V2 format
13:34:16 <renato> RRSAgent, draft minutes V2
13:34:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/29-poe-minutes.html renato
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