IRC log of pbg on 2017-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:46:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-irc
15:46:47 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
15:46:58 [ivan]
Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
15:47:27 [ivan]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/356774EA-905E-4161-9B52-4B5A40A035BF@ingramcontent.com
15:47:34 [ivan]
Chair: Rick
15:47:59 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:47:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
15:49:06 [ivan]
Regrets: Nick_Ruffilo, Cristina
15:51:18 [Julian_Calderazi]
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15:51:39 [BillMcCoy]
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15:54:40 [ivan]
Present+ ivan
15:54:52 [laudrain]
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15:54:54 [ivan]
present+ dauwhe
15:55:02 [ivan]
print + karen
15:55:04 [laudrain]
present+ Luc
15:55:07 [ivan]
present+ karen
15:55:29 [ivan]
present+ wolfgang_schindler
15:56:26 [mteixeira]
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15:56:35 [pbelfanti]
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15:56:36 [ivan]
present+ julian_Calderazi
15:57:00 [pbelfanti]
present+ paul_belfanti
15:57:04 [rkwright]
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15:57:10 [Julian_Calderazi]
Julian Calderazi - Team Leader @ DigitalBe
15:57:29 [RickJ]
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15:57:37 [Schindler]
present+ Wolfgang Schindler
15:58:32 [RickJ]
present+ RickJ
15:59:00 [tzviya]
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15:59:01 [Brian]
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15:59:25 [George]
present+ George
16:00:19 [Avneesh]
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16:00:52 [ivan]
present+ Ric
16:00:53 [Brian]
also present
16:01:03 [ivan]
present+ brian
16:01:12 [ivan]
present+ makoto
16:01:25 [ivan]
present+ Bill_Kasdorff
16:01:29 [Karen]
Scribenick: Karen
16:01:32 [gregdavis]
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16:01:32 [Avneesh]
present+ Avneesh
16:01:37 [Karen]
Rick: Let's get started
16:01:47 [Karen]
…Welcome everyone
16:01:48 [RickJ]
https://www.w3.org/2017/04/25-pbg-minutes.html
16:01:55 [ivan]
present+ berhard_heinser
16:02:02 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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16:02:12 [laudrain]
Me too
16:02:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+ Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:14 [ivan]
present+ junko_kamata
16:02:18 [rpug]
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16:02:22 [garth]
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16:02:36 [ivan]
present+ jens_klingelhöfer
16:02:41 [Karen]
Rick: minutes from last meeting are in irc
16:02:46 [ivan]
present+ laurent
16:02:51 [Karen]
…any comments or changes; if not, assume they are approved
16:02:54 [tzviya]
present+
16:02:56 [Karen]
…second point on agenda
16:02:57 [garth]
present+ Garth
16:02:58 [ivan]
present+ mateus
16:02:58 [mattg]
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16:03:04 [laurentlemeur]
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16:03:10 [Karen]
…Per our previous discussions, to take advantage of W3C focus and the honeymoon period
16:03:16 [mattg]
present+
16:03:18 [ivan]
present+ Ryan_Pugatch
16:03:18 [rpug]
present+
16:03:27 [Karen]
…and the work we are doing to elevate to a higher level, I have submitted my name to the AB [Advisory Board] election
16:03:33 [ivan]
rick++
16:03:37 [George]
Go Rick Go
16:03:40 [Karen]
…encourage you to have your AC Rep vote for me, to encourage everyone that this is happening
16:03:45 [laudrain]
+1
16:03:47 [mteixeira]
present+ mateus-teixeira
16:03:49 [Karen]
…Charter update; Ivan, where do we stand?
16:04:03 [Karen]
Ivan: We have 43 or 45 votes in in favor of the charter
16:04:06 [Karen]
…it's a great number
16:04:17 [Karen]
…We have the necessary numbers; the more the merrier but it's really good
16:04:19 [Karen]
…Out of those
16:04:24 [Karen]
…Nine TPI members
16:04:45 [liisamk]
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16:04:45 [Karen]
…Something I reported on two weeks ago, there were two comments with objections on the charter
16:04:53 [Karen]
…One of two we discussed and we have an alternative proposal that works
16:05:03 [Karen]
…We have another one [objection] that we are working on
16:05:12 [Karen]
…Looking to find a consensus; if not, W3M will have to decide on that one
16:05:18 [Karen]
…We also have some comments in favor of the charter
16:05:32 [Karen]
…but asking us to look at text and improve the English and stylistic changes
16:05:44 [Karen]
…Something that Tzviya, who is back by the way, has taken up to do
16:05:46 [Karen]
…So this week
16:05:54 [Karen]
…The voting period ends on 14 May, end of this week
16:05:56 [MURATA]
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16:06:02 [pbelfanti]
Welcome back, Tzviya!
16:06:05 [Karen]
…from that point on, we will have our discussions with W3M [W3C Management Team]
16:06:17 [Karen]
…At this moment I am cautiously optimistic it will happen without problems
16:06:19 [RickJ]
q?
16:06:28 [Karen]
…So plan to have group start end of June is probably happening
16:06:35 [gregdavis]
present+ gregdavis
16:06:42 [Karen]
Rick: For those of us who have not been involved, is 45 a high or low number for these types of votes?
16:06:55 [Karen]
Ivan: It's a high number; requirement is to have 5% of membership to vote
16:07:02 [Karen]
…so that's around 22-23 votes without TPI members
16:07:06 [Karen]
…with TPI it's a bit higher
16:07:15 [Karen]
…so it's 47 taking into account the objections
16:07:24 [Karen]
…It's a nice number; we may reach the 50 number this week
16:07:34 [tzviya]
q+
16:07:35 [Karen]
…Comparatively to other proposals for other charters it's a high number
16:07:41 [jkamata]
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16:07:50 [Karen]
Rick: We are getting background noises from some people; please mute unless you are speaking
16:08:03 [Karen]
…Any questions on the charter
16:08:10 [pbelfanti]
I voted just before this meeting, so it may not have registered yet
16:08:25 [Karen]
Tzvivya: Better?
16:08:37 [Karen]
s/Tzviya
16:08:49 [Karen]
[I will type it in]
16:09:02 [Karen]
Tzviya: I will call in
16:09:13 [Karen]
Ivan: Garth and Bill were also part of the discussion; is Bill on the call?
16:09:18 [Karen]
…Maybe they have something to add?
16:09:28 [Karen]
Bill: I am on call but nothing to add
16:09:31 [Karen]
Garth: you did fine
16:09:34 [ivan]
present+ BillMcCoy
16:09:36 [Karen]
…I can touch on the next agenda item
16:09:45 [Karen]
…the Interest Group, which is largely a repeat
16:09:52 [jensklingelhoefer]
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16:10:00 [Karen]
…We are doing updates to charter, every other week meetings as we await kick-off of the Publishing Working Group
16:10:07 [Karen]
…Now working on the agenda for that meeting
16:10:12 [Karen]
…here is the link
16:10:17 [garth]
PUB WG Agenda & RSVP: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J0VlZbMFj-33tfhZe0EK543NWFlx6dyDHauqkPwMeEI/edit#
16:10:30 [Karen]
Garth: Feel free to contribute or comment on that
16:10:37 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
16:10:38 [Karen]
…advance planning for the Working Group kick-off meeting
16:10:49 [Karen]
…Very likely to be a Working Group meeting in New York a month from now
16:10:54 [Karen]
Rick: I have a question for you, Garth
16:11:02 [Karen]
…There were a number of open items to sum up
16:11:07 [Karen]
…having a place for comments to land
16:11:12 [Karen]
…any concerns or open items?
16:11:21 [Karen]
Garth: we did discuss and either resolved, or did not think of all of them
16:11:27 [Karen]
…CSS Accessibility being top of mind
16:11:35 [Karen]
…we either reflected in charter where they woudl land
16:11:40 [Karen]
…we published the two documents as Notes
16:11:44 [Karen]
…Ivan did it
16:11:54 [ivan]
q+
16:12:00 [Karen]
…Either we are in very good shape, or there are items the Pub IG is handling and has not yet found homes for
16:12:03 [Karen]
Rick: No red flags
16:12:04 [garth]
q?
16:12:06 [Karen]
Garth: right
16:12:09 [Karen]
ack Tzviya
16:12:33 [Karen]
Tzviya: I was going to say about the number of comments
16:12:39 [Karen]
…if I took advice
16:12:46 [Karen]
…am I correct in assuming @@
16:12:55 [garth]
Tzviya we really can’t hear you… please type.
16:12:56 [MURATA]
I cannot hear her.
16:13:49 [Karen]
Tzviya: Better?
16:13:51 [Karen]
YEAH!
16:13:53 [Julian_Calderazi]
clap clap!
16:13:54 [MURATA]
Great!
16:13:54 [garth]
Woohoo!
16:14:10 [Karen]
Tzviya: The comments we received from many people, not just the formal objections
16:14:23 [Karen]
…a lot of comments on the charter were you have a lot of words; keep it brief and too the point
16:14:41 [Karen]
…I could probably boil this down to a few bullets; but if I do that, then we have to send it back to members to vote again, is that correct?
16:14:46 [Karen]
Ivan: that is correct
16:14:54 [Karen]
Tzviya: that makes my editing job easier then
16:15:00 [garth]
q?
16:15:00 [Karen]
Ivan: The comments are under the heading in the review
16:15:06 [BillMcCoy]
q+
16:15:19 [Karen]
…we are ok with the charter and the WG; we are in favor of WG even if you do not take the comments into account
16:15:37 [Karen]
…If we do things which are clearly wrong, mistakes, that is fine, but radically re-writing the charter would be too much
16:15:47 [Karen]
Garth: If we were to do that, we may risk losing the 45 positive votes
16:15:58 [Karen]
…let's do the word smithing to make things work
16:16:02 [Karen]
…but not go back for a vote
16:16:05 [RickJ]
q?
16:16:06 [garth]
q?
16:16:07 [Karen]
Rick: Ivan, you are in the queue
16:16:10 [garth]
ack ivan
16:16:19 [Karen]
ack BillMcCoy
16:16:40 [Karen]
BillMcCoy: as person who will be defending the charter in the W3M senior management meeting
16:16:48 [Karen]
…I think we should err on the side of minimal edits
16:16:57 [Karen]
…so that Tim or others do not suggest we go back for another pass
16:17:06 [Karen]
…Jeff indicated as much to me and Ralph last week
16:17:20 [Karen]
…Bending over backwards to address a few number of objections could boomerang
16:17:31 [Karen]
…If we can make a few edits and make everyone happy, that's fantastic
16:17:43 [Karen]
…But even if charter is not perfect, we really don't want to go back to another voting cycle
16:17:47 [Karen]
…So that's my two cents
16:17:56 [Karen]
Garth: Be nice for Ivan for to answer Dave's question
16:18:10 [Karen]
…My response is if it's non-substantive, W3M stays cool
16:18:20 [Karen]
…but look to Ivan's response
16:18:24 [Karen]
Ivan: that's true
16:18:29 [Karen]
…you can believe Garth
16:18:37 [Karen]
…Two more comments
16:18:39 [garth]
q?
16:18:48 [Karen]
…One is not minor thing I forgot to say for the vote
16:19:11 [Karen]
…Among the 45 we have 33 commenters who have said that they intend to participate in the Working Group; that's good. We need that.
16:19:19 [RickJ]
q+
16:19:23 [Karen]
…One of them is Apple. That is good; they were not active in the IG
16:19:33 [Karen]
…The other thing back to Garth's report on the Interest Group
16:19:43 [Karen]
…there is one area where there has been no action in the past period
16:19:59 [Karen]
…Not sure if it's something the BG should look at…it's MathML
16:20:05 [Karen]
…anything with mathematics
16:20:09 [Karen]
…still an open issue
16:20:17 [George]
q+
16:20:20 [Karen]
…that has not fundamentally improved in the past year; that is still a problem
16:20:26 [Karen]
Rick: Are you suggesting this is a topic to handle?
16:20:32 [Karen]
Ivan: Not sure what I'm suggesting
16:20:38 [dauwhe]
Note that the Math CG is active
16:20:40 [Karen]
…where we want to go with it at some point in time
16:20:48 [Karen]
…Discuss at some point and what are the possible avenues
16:20:58 [Karen]
Rick: I put myself in the queue about the 33 people who want to participate
16:21:15 [Karen]
…Garth, do we know that these 33 people have the information about the Working Group meeting in June?
16:21:24 [Karen]
Ivan: Charter references the F2F in June, but not the logistics
16:21:27 [Karen]
…that's a good point
16:21:50 [Karen]
…Once the group is finalized then Garth, Tzviya and I will need to contact the AC Reps of those companies in case they are not yet in the Interest Group
16:22:06 [Karen]
Rick: Would it behoove us to start that outreach earlier, given flight expenses; make sure they want to come
16:22:11 [Karen]
Ivan: Formally it's a bit awkward
16:22:16 [Karen]
…makes me a bit uneasy
16:22:26 [Karen]
…Let's not open up the can of worms; let's wait a week
16:22:45 [Karen]
Garth: Ivan, one idea is because we have many member of the CG, we could send something to them
16:22:51 [Karen]
…or is that a bad idea?
16:22:58 [Karen]
Ivan: No, we can send out what we are planning
16:23:02 [dauwhe]
q+
16:23:03 [Karen]
…the information about the place and the dates
16:23:05 [BillMcCoy]
q+
16:23:15 [RickJ]
ack rickj
16:23:16 [Karen]
BillK: Don't you have to be a member to be part of the WG?
16:23:18 [Karen]
Ivan: Yes
16:23:29 [Karen]
…people must be in the WG for the F2F historically
16:23:41 [Karen]
Garth: we do have to enforce that piece, but hope to have more members
16:23:53 [dauwhe]
q-
16:23:54 [Karen]
Rick: Come Monday, let's copy email addresses and send them the logistics
16:23:59 [Karen]
Garth: I think that's a good idea
16:24:02 [Karen]
ack George
16:24:10 [Karen]
George: On the Math side of things
16:24:28 [Karen]
…with the Accessibility folks, we are working on a way to include math in that
16:24:39 [Karen]
…it involves an SVG image for math and a mechanism to have the math in there as well
16:24:43 [Karen]
…kind of off screen
16:24:47 [Karen]
…so that AT could get at it
16:24:58 [Karen]
…We are a couple weeks away from having a technique to recommend
16:25:20 [Karen]
…Not sure if we have a long-term solution, but expect to send the solution to our publisher friends for feedback about whether they can do this in their production processes
16:25:23 [RickJ]
ack billm
16:25:26 [Karen]
ack BillMcCoy
16:25:40 [Karen]
BillMcCoy: About half of TPI members have not done their paperwork yet
16:25:49 [Karen]
…I think we should reach out to the EPUB 3 CG
16:25:54 [Karen]
…and the TPI eligible
16:26:00 [Karen]
…because they may not have seen information
16:26:06 [gregdavis]
@george - Pearson does a lot of MathML, we’d be glad to look at the SVG workflow
16:26:13 [Karen]
…some people who did the TPI did not realize they also have to press the button to join
16:26:19 [Karen]
…Whoever reaches out once vote is completed
16:26:30 [Karen]
…If you are TPI eligible, please complete the paperwork and point them to me
16:26:37 [Karen]
…Veronica is person for the agreement and payment
16:26:47 [Karen]
…We really want to get TPI eligible people into the fold
16:26:50 [Karen]
…It's a good incentive
16:27:05 [Karen]
…People in CG who want to join the WG, welcome for them to join as members
16:27:16 [Karen]
…Anyone not a member or TPI member, I'm happy to discuss with them
16:27:24 [Karen]
Rick: A perfect transition for the EPUB 3 CG update
16:27:35 [Karen]
…Lisa, Dave or Rachel, do you want to give an update?
16:27:45 [Karen]
Dave: We have our first conference call with 25 attendees which was great
16:27:50 [Karen]
…set up infrastructure on GitHub
16:28:02 [Karen]
…set up task forces to address issues we need to delve into
16:28:11 [Karen]
…we already have 12 issues in the GitHub repo
16:28:16 [Karen]
…strong interest in Accessibility
16:28:26 [Karen]
…Lots of people interested in working on education
16:28:35 [Karen]
…and discussions on what to do about EDUPUB on lists
16:28:46 [Karen]
…Ivan and Matt have managed to transfer EPUB 3 spec docs to a W3C repo
16:28:51 [Karen]
…It feels like progress to me
16:28:56 [Karen]
Rick: Is it a valid assumption
16:29:07 [Karen]
…that you'll take on the contact that Bill McCoy just mentioned?
16:29:23 [Karen]
Dave: yes, we can say that if you have the resources to become a W3C member, we would love to have you at the W3C F2F
16:29:30 [Karen]
BillMcCoy: one more part of it
16:29:41 [Karen]
…about half of TPI members have not yet taken part of it; get them all in the fold
16:29:50 [Karen]
…I am happy to craft a message for me to do
16:30:03 [Karen]
Dave: yes, that sounds more like a Team activity; more busdev, not work of the CG
16:30:11 [Karen]
BillMcCoy: yes, I will do that; understood
16:30:15 [Karen]
Rick: Any more questions for the CG
16:30:23 [Karen]
…Bill K, your favorite agenda item
16:30:32 [Karen]
…Can you and Brian update us on EPUB Test.org
16:30:51 [Karen]
BillK: We want to keep this front and center, but we don't yet have a solution for how this should go forward yet
16:30:59 [Karen]
…Three organizations, BISG, W3C and DAISY
16:31:15 [Karen]
…while Accessibility testing George and his team have been conducting which should continue
16:31:23 [Karen]
…the mainstream testing needs a radical overhaul
16:31:31 [Karen]
…This is a fundamental resource for the publishing industry
16:31:37 [Karen]
…but it's so out of date that it's not good
16:31:45 [Karen]
…We have to figure out how to do this
16:31:49 [dauwhe]
q+
16:31:56 [Karen]
…So I'll turn it over the Brian and George
16:32:02 [Karen]
…In terms of W3C, where does it fall?
16:32:09 [Karen]
…Is it in the CG along with EPUB check?
16:32:23 [Karen]
…Maybe Dave, do you want to make a comment on the way of approaching the mainstream testing?
16:32:29 [Karen]
Dave: I want to update on EPUB Check
16:32:38 [Karen]
…some people in CG have volunteered to do this
16:32:45 [Karen]
…Rick Wright volunteered to do this
16:32:52 [Karen]
…People are finding out what needs to be done
16:33:01 [Karen]
…Some hope of a few volunteers to do it
16:33:10 [Karen]
BillK: what about EPUB Test, different from EPUB Check?
16:33:13 [Karen]
Dave: That is a large issue
16:33:31 [Karen]
…Good idea to have some dedicated time to talk about this with all the various stakeholders
16:33:35 [dauwhe]
ack dauwhe
16:33:38 [Karen]
Brian: BISG is interested in taking the lead on this
16:33:45 [Karen]
…we had a call two and a half months ago
16:34:00 [Karen]
…I volunteered to put together a problem statement as there is not a clear statement of what we want this to do
16:34:14 [tzviya]
Ric Wright
16:34:19 [Karen]
…On an earlier call, we agreed we want to improve implementation of EPUB across multiple devices
16:34:22 [Karen]
…not sure it does that
16:34:30 [tzviya]
Ric Wright's epubcheck roadmap: https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck/wiki/WorkPlan
16:34:30 [Karen]
…I will create a problem statement for this group to review
16:34:48 [Karen]
…Then we will take it apart and see if W3C should solve; see if George and I should work on it jointly
16:34:54 [Karen]
…but let's first agree what the problem is
16:35:04 [tzviya]
q+
16:35:08 [dauwhe]
q+
16:35:13 [RickJ]
q+
16:35:16 [Karen]
BillK: by product of grid; original goal was to be a resource for publishers to know what features work in what reading systems
16:35:20 [Karen]
…be a source
16:35:32 [Karen]
…the fact we don't have effective pressure on reading system developers is one thing
16:35:46 [Karen]
…but having publishers looking at grid and getting incorrect info is my problem
16:35:55 [Karen]
…But I don't want to unplug the accessibility testing
16:36:07 [Karen]
…Fundamental goal of looking up a reading system and see if it's supported
16:36:15 [Karen]
…it has been dysfunctional for months
16:36:36 [Karen]
Brian: This conversation is why it's important to do the problem statement
16:36:42 [Karen]
…not sure I agree that's the main goal
16:36:49 [Karen]
…but we should come to agreement
16:36:51 [Karen]
ack Tzviya
16:36:59 [Karen]
Tzviya: Brian is making a good point
16:37:13 [Karen]
…may be missing things
16:37:19 [George]
q+
16:37:23 [Karen]
…We have said EPUB Test.org is meant to mimic
16:37:27 [dauwhe]
q-
16:37:37 [Karen]
…and W3C can help can I use, but W3C does not support testing internally
16:37:50 [Karen]
BillK: Am I hearing you say publishing industry has given up on it as an informational resource?
16:38:04 [Karen]
Tzviya: not sure to go down path right now; but just saying it's not as robust
16:38:14 [Karen]
BillK: We have some stats that it was being used
16:38:20 [Karen]
Tzviya: But we need professional testers
16:38:28 [Karen]
BillK: scaled up to mechanism that did not work well
16:38:39 [Karen]
…Dave had more of a crowd source strategy that would work better
16:38:48 [Karen]
Brian: We need to come to agreement as the problem we are solving
16:38:58 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
16:38:58 [Zakim]
Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:39:02 [Zakim]
... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy
16:39:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:39:02 [Zakim]
... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:39:02 [Karen]
…provide better info to publishing industry or change the way EPUB is used on reading systems
16:39:10 [Karen]
…review is different; which to emphasize
16:39:20 [Karen]
..put together a coherent statement of what this is doing
16:39:36 [Karen]
…If we go down the road of Dave's suggestion for crowd-sourcing, I still want to know where we want to end up
16:39:49 [Karen]
…it's consistent with what I am trying to do; figure out the problem we are trying to solve
16:39:57 [Karen]
…I don't understand why EPUB Test rests here
16:39:58 [Karen]
ack Rick
16:40:12 [Karen]
Rick: Comments to make as a vendor who participated very actively in the early versions
16:40:22 [Karen]
…there were three clear different goals that may not now be the same weight
16:40:31 [Karen]
…there was a clear Accessibility goal that has needs of its own
16:40:38 [Karen]
BillK: yes and a methodology that is different
16:40:50 [Karen]
Rick: Yes, and as Tzviya said, a clear "can I use" methodology
16:41:00 [Karen]
…and in its infant stages, that drove the usage decisions
16:41:04 [Karen]
…to prove itself
16:41:07 [Karen]
…not so much validating
16:41:24 [Karen]
…in light of what we are doing for next generation EPUB we should design with this in mind
16:41:29 [Karen]
BillK: great point, Rick
16:41:37 [Karen]
…was not working everywhere; was one of the goals
16:41:42 [Karen]
…maybe not 100 percent of features
16:41:50 [Karen]
…but that is historical aspect that has gotten out of date
16:41:55 [RickJ]
q?
16:42:01 [Karen]
…it may no longer be a priority or necessary at all
16:42:10 [Karen]
Brian: EPUB Test as a grid pre-dates EPUB 3
16:42:15 [Karen]
…probably evolved within that
16:42:21 [Karen]
…agree with the segmentation
16:42:45 [Karen]
…Liisa McCloy-Kelley made the point that there are plenty of instances where publishers are choosing solutions
16:42:58 [Karen]
…that may or may not be EPUB or a proprietary path
16:43:04 [Karen]
…not sure what we are doing gets to that
16:43:08 [liisamk]
q+
16:43:14 [Karen]
…have standard be used; not nec in exclusion
16:43:16 [Karen]
ack George
16:43:18 [RickJ]
ack geo
16:43:34 [Karen]
George: strategically the DAISY Consortium wanted to integrate with mainstream
16:43:40 [Karen]
…previously was stand-alone
16:43:51 [Karen]
…we are here to support whatever direction we decide to go in
16:44:06 [Karen]
…Marissa maintaining site; Matt working on features
16:44:08 [gregdavis]
+1 on communicating spec better. There is always someone within Pearson who is trying to say “move away from ePub to a walled garden”…
16:44:16 [Karen]
…If we did a complete revamp, we don't have the resources to do oursleves
16:44:36 [Karen]
…we do have a community manager for the Accessibility work we are doing, along with Avneesh and my participation
16:44:44 [RickJ]
q?
16:44:47 [Karen]
…Love to see if go forward and be integrated with whatever happens in the future
16:44:49 [RickJ]
ack liisa
16:44:56 [Karen]
Liisamk: I think it could be a usable resource
16:45:04 [ivan]
present+ liisamk
16:45:05 [Karen]
…and I could see where it could be supported
16:45:13 [Karen]
…Content creators are not @
16:45:24 [Karen]
…and Ereaders not necess doing it
16:45:31 [Karen]
…have not seen it adopted across all systems
16:45:34 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
16:45:34 [Zakim]
Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:45:38 [Zakim]
... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy, liisamk
16:45:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:45:38 [Zakim]
... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:45:41 [Karen]
…maybe a simpler way to make it updated and be usable
16:45:49 [Karen]
…As Tzviya pointed out right now no one uses it
16:46:00 [Karen]
Rick: Brian, are you still planning to bring forth a proposal?
16:46:02 [Karen]
Brian: yes
16:46:21 [Karen]
…I am committed to do it if the group feels it would be of value
16:46:24 [rkwright]
q+
16:46:36 [Karen]
Brian: I will commit to draft something with this group before the next PBG meeting in two weeks
16:46:44 [Karen]
Rick: yes, suggest you do something ahead of time on the list
16:46:47 [Karen]
…then we'll discuss it
16:46:49 [Karen]
Brian: Thatnks
16:46:57 [Karen]
…and I will think carefully about Dave's suggestion
16:47:02 [Karen]
…For the promise that this could have
16:47:13 [Karen]
…We are re-configuring our [BISG] annual meeting
16:47:25 [Karen]
…and say we have this standard like ONYX and here is the implementation
16:47:36 [Karen]
…and here are the challenges from reading systems and proprietary
16:47:44 [garth]
q?
16:47:45 [Karen]
…the conversation and the selling is important for us
16:47:49 [Karen]
ack RKWright
16:48:02 [Karen]
rkwright: We use Readium all the time to do regression testing
16:48:12 [Karen]
…it does not go far enough and has all sorts of flaws, but we do use it
16:48:22 [Karen]
…I would be very interested in discussions about how to improve or replace
16:48:31 [Karen]
Brian: Can I contact you outside of this call for the details?
16:48:36 [Karen]
rkwright: yes, please do
16:48:46 [Karen]
BillK: even if we have concluded the publishers don't use it
16:48:52 [Karen]
…not nec because they don't need it
16:48:57 [Karen]
…but the reading system developers
16:49:05 [Karen]
…if we don't have as a publisher facing
16:49:15 [Karen]
…we have lots of developers using it privately to test software
16:49:25 [Karen]
…it provides a valuable service on that regard
16:49:35 [Karen]
Rick: Brian, I can send you the VitalSource resource
16:49:38 [Karen]
…Moving on
16:49:44 [Karen]
…There has been a robust discussion
16:50:04 [Karen]
Julian_Calderazi: I would like to make a comment
16:50:20 [Karen]
…I agree with Liisa about the partial adoption of EPUB 3 in different channels and reading apps
16:50:28 [Karen]
…there is a problem that it is not updated
16:50:36 [Bill_Kasdorf]
s/Readium/epubtest.org
16:50:38 [Karen]
…we are providing not so useful information to visitors
16:50:48 [Karen]
…so we should think about information that is published now; that is an issue
16:50:52 [Karen]
Rick: Great comment, thank you
16:51:01 [Karen]
…Bill McCoy, the ISO submission discussion
16:51:10 [Karen]
BillMcCoy: We, the PBG and EPUB 3 CG
16:51:21 [Bill_Kasdorf]
that was about Ric Wright's comment: they use epubtest.org to test Readium
16:51:23 [Karen]
…need to decide what stance to take on continuation of ISO specs
16:51:30 [Karen]
…upgrad TS T135
16:51:44 [Karen]
…or other opp to separately standardize accesibility in it's current version
16:52:03 [Karen]
BillmcCoy: what are benefits, costs, and how does it stack up against other priorities
16:52:18 [Karen]
…and it maybe premature to come to a recommendation but we should get everyone's input on the table
16:52:23 [Karen]
…and consider other implications
16:52:28 [Karen]
…role of EPUB 3 CG
16:52:44 [Karen]
…Don't want to get into all that, but the PBG SC will want to address
16:52:46 [Avneesh]
q+
16:52:49 [Karen]
RIck: Any questions on this?
16:53:07 [garth]
q?
16:53:08 [Karen]
ack Avneesh
16:53:22 [Karen]
Avneesh: To remind the accessibilty spec going into ISO; this was the plan at IDPF
16:53:27 [Karen]
…we started discussion in 2015
16:53:31 [Karen]
…under the belt of IDPF
16:53:37 [Karen]
…it was there to take to ISO once mature
16:53:46 [Karen]
…whether EPUB 3 will go to ISO we have to discuss
16:53:55 [Karen]
…there may not be much use if it supercedes the new spec
16:54:01 [MURATA]
+1
16:54:08 [Karen]
…but on accessibility side, it is a high priority to take it into ISO
16:54:11 [Karen]
…that is the point
16:54:14 [Karen]
Rick: Great comment
16:54:15 [laudrain]
+1
16:54:19 [Karen]
…any other comments?
16:54:34 [Karen]
…Doing a quick update on EPUB for Education
16:54:43 [Karen]
…to summarize the conversation as to where it is now
16:54:51 [Karen]
…EDUPUB is not a formal specification
16:54:59 [Karen]
…did not get out of the late draft phase at IDPF
16:55:07 [Karen]
…main goal is to find the right home for it
16:55:12 [Karen]
…it evolves around EPUB 3.1
16:55:18 [Karen]
…one of the things to make sure we discuss
16:55:32 [Karen]
…people have been doing interesting things with EPUB @ and special vocabs
16:55:45 [Karen]
…there is content in the marketplace that has to be supported
16:55:55 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
16:55:55 [Zakim]
Present: ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto, Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser,
16:55:58 [Zakim]
... junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy, liisamk
16:55:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jensklingelhoefer, jkamata, MURATA, liisamk, laurentlemeur, mattg, garth, rpug, Bill_Kasdorf, gregdavis, Avneesh, George, Brian, tzviya, RickJ, rkwright, pbelfanti,
16:55:58 [Zakim]
... Schindler, mteixeira, laudrain, BillMcCoy, Julian_Calderazi, RRSAgent, Zakim, Karen, ivan, dauwhe, bigbluehat
16:56:01 [Karen]
…as we look at Role; EPUB Type does not exists; we should be mindful of that
16:56:14 [Karen]
…and propose a way to find a home in the CG and provide a way to move forward
16:56:26 [RickJ]
q?
16:56:30 [Karen]
…I will send an email out clarifying what I mean by Role and EPUB Type
16:56:34 [Avneesh]
q+
16:56:36 [Karen]
…wanted to invite any questions
16:56:39 [Karen]
ack George
16:56:48 [Karen]
George: It seems that the semantics needed in education
16:57:12 [Karen]
…is a big piece of EPUB for Education plus accessibility and the anlalytics from IMS being separate
16:57:15 [pbelfanti]
q+
16:57:25 [tzviya]
q+ to ask about HTML structure
16:57:28 [Karen]
…seems like those chunks would go a long way to creating what we have called a profile in the past
16:57:39 [Karen]
…expect those semantics will be needed until we have a W3C Rec
16:57:43 [RickJ]
ack avne
16:57:47 [Karen]
…and will also be needed in that W3C Rec
16:58:06 [Karen]
Avneesh: We have two channels; one about future and one about supporting the existing infrastructure of EPUB 3
16:58:14 [Karen]
…wonder if we need to have such a radical change to depricate
16:58:21 [Karen]
…if main focus is to support EPUB 3
16:58:27 [Schindler]
q+
16:58:29 [Karen]
…and more the more radical change in the WG rather than in the CG
16:58:32 [Karen]
ack pbelfanti
16:58:36 [RickJ]
ack pbelfan
16:58:45 [Karen]
pbelfanti: I wanted to add onto what George said
16:58:54 [Karen]
…Seems to me it can be boiled down to the semantics
16:59:18 [Karen]
…Accessibility will be in 3.1 but where do we preserve the semantics to describe the complexity of the content on the education side
16:59:25 [RickJ]
ack tzviy
16:59:25 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask about HTML structure
16:59:31 [Karen]
Rick: and there is accessibility you get by default
16:59:49 [Karen]
Tzviya: Are we doing away with @ or are they an extension from ARIA?
16:59:58 [Karen]
Rick: Question implies a decision, but there has not been one
17:00:11 [Karen]
…we are discussing questions and who should be making decisions and where
17:00:21 [Karen]
Tzviya: I do have thoughts but not make decisions today
17:00:23 [tzviya]
s/@/structural semantics
17:00:24 [Karen]
ack Schindler
17:00:37 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:00:46 [Karen]
Schindler: It is decisive who controls the attributes and whether we save our structural semantics
17:00:51 [Karen]
…for the future so it does not get lost
17:01:02 [Karen]
…we invested a lot of time and energy to define as IDPF specs
17:01:09 [Karen]
…so we should keep it in the HTML language
17:01:22 [ivan]
present+ Liisa
17:01:25 [Karen]
Rick: Since I initiated this, I'll break it into parts and address by email
17:01:27 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to Schindler re dictionary, indexes, and education semantics needing to be preserved
17:01:32 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:01:35 [RickJ]
q?
17:01:37 [Karen]
…I will add up EPUB Check into the last conversation
17:01:41 [Karen]
…anything urgent to bring up?
17:01:56 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/09-pbg-minutes.html ivan
17:02:01 [Karen]
…Thank you all for attending. We will continue conversations by email and in two weeks
17:02:02 [ivan]
zakim, bye
17:02:02 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been ivan, dauwhe, Luc, karen, wolfgang_schindler, julian_Calderazi, paul_belfanti, Schindler, RickJ, George, brian, makoto,
17:02:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pbg
17:02:05 [Zakim]
... Bill_Kasdorff, Avneesh, berhard_heinser, junko_kamata, jens_klingelhöfer, laurent, tzviya, Garth, mateus, mattg, Ryan_Pugatch, rpug, mateus-teixeira, gregdavis, BillMcCoy,
17:02:05 [Zakim]
... liisamk
17:02:07 [jkamata]
jkamata has left #pbg
17:02:10 [ivan]
rrsagent, bye
17:02:10 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
17:02:10 [Karen]
[meeting adjourned]