13:46:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
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13:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:46:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:46:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:46:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:46:21 <trackbot> Date: 04 May 2017
13:46:36 <allanj> regrets+ Wayne, Glenda
13:46:41 <allanj> Chair: Jim
14:19:18 <allanj> Agenda+ Text adaptation user to content requirements https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_adaptation_user_to_content_requirements
14:59:08 <Marla> Marla has joined #lvtf
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15:04:12 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
15:04:24 <JohnRochford> present
15:04:32 <JohnRochford> present+ JohnRochford
15:06:03 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:06:15 <steverep> steverep has joined #lvtf
15:06:23 <steverep> present+steverep
15:07:54 <laura> present+ Laura
15:07:58 <erich> present+
15:09:50 <allanj> regrets+ shawn
15:11:39 <JohnRochford> Jim: Wayne is working to determine font width based upon Google and Adobe fonts, about 800.
15:12:20 <allanj> Topic: Contrast Smith-Kettlewell
15:13:30 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017May/0020.html
15:14:14 <JohnRochford> Jim: Preceding URL is a proposal related to contrast sensitivity
15:15:50 <allanj> added to 2.4.3 in User needs
15:16:01 <allanj>  *Contrast sensitivity decreases with age and is concomitant with many other vision diseases and conditions. Contrast levels should be the same for text, graphics, and controls.*
15:16:11 <JohnRochford> Jim: I'm proposing we add it to the user needs.
15:16:11 <laura> +1
15:16:19 <JohnRochford> +1
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15:17:15 <allanj> proposed for Benefits of Issues 9 & 10
15:17:23 <allanj> *In short, contrast levels should be the same for text, graphics, and controls.*
15:18:22 <JohnRochford> +1
15:18:49 <laura> +1
15:19:43 <JohnRochford> Marla: Is that SC considering fill, not just borders?
15:20:10 <JohnRochford> Jim: Essentially, yes.
15:22:55 <JohnRochford> Jim, in response to question from steverep, says there are 4 base levels of contrast threshold, then there are another 3 steps before one can identify what's there.
15:23:44 <JohnRochford> Jim: 3 steps refer to contrast increases
15:26:33 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION: WE WILL UPDATE ISSUES 9 & 10 WITH TEXT ABOVE
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15:27:11 <JohnRochford> RESOLUTION: WE WILL UPDATE USER NEEDS 2.4.3 WITH TEXT ABOVE
15:27:28 <allanj>  zakim, open item 1
15:27:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Text adaptation user to content requirements https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Text_adaptation_user_to_content_requirements" taken up [from allanj]
15:29:44 <JohnRochford> allanj/Jim: I think we can flesh out a bit the content at the preceding URL.
15:29:58 <allanj>     Allow for a 10% buffer on text size within a layout.
15:29:59 <allanj>     Use foreground (HTML) image methods such as img / svg, or
15:30:01 <allanj>         Fallback of: Identify background images that are content in a semantic way so they can be ignored by the user-agent changes.
15:31:32 <allanj> one that comes to mind - if you change foreground you must change background
15:32:39 <JohnRochford> allanj: another is only setting the foreground color and not setting the background cover
15:34:07 <allanj> transparency in graphics
15:34:08 <JohnRochford> steverep: what about the background color of a web page's affect on a graphic with a transparent background color?
15:34:36 <JohnRochford> effect, not affect
15:34:52 <laura> Stephen’s list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Apr/0131.html
15:35:58 <allanj> 1. The author uses sprite taken from the background image.
15:36:04 <allanj> 2. The author uses transparent images for controls that depend on the pages background color for visibility
15:36:11 <allanj> 3. Items that are hidden with color become visible
15:36:18 <allanj> 4. Embedded color declarations that use important
15:37:03 <allanj> s/that use important/that use !important (css)
15:37:36 <laura> Users can override inline !important author CSS declarations. The thing is they have to do it at the same or higher specificity level, which necessitates users investigating an author's markup and carefully crafting rules to override it. Like sprites, I suspect an attempt to outlaw inline !important author CSS declarations would be met with harsh resistance.
15:38:44 <allanj> 5.  Allow for a 10% buffer on text size within a layout. (allows for font family change, and spacing concerns)
15:38:46 <JohnRochford> Jim: Anything else?
15:38:55 <laura> #1 would go back to techniques and failures then for Info & Relationships and/or Name, Role, Value.
15:39:11 <allanj> 6. Use foreground (HTML) image methods such as img / svg, or Fallback of: Identify background images that are content in a semantic way so they can be ignored by the user-agent changes.
15:39:26 <laura> For #3  Is that  not just a failure of Contrast (Minimum) per WCAG 2.0?
15:41:13 <allanj> steve: or a 1.4.1 failure
15:42:00 <JohnRochford> Jim: Do you think we could just do techniques for that, rather than creating new SC for it?
15:42:58 <JohnRochford> Jim: There is no visual means of hiding the information.
15:44:00 <allanj> topic: Items that are hidden with color become visible
15:47:03 <steverep> I mispoke saying 1.4.1 - I meant Contrast (Minimum)
15:47:13 <JohnRochford> Jim: Can be conflicts between low-vision users and those with cognitive issues
15:48:00 <laura> F24: Failure of Success Criterion 1.4.3, 1.4.6 and 1.4.8 due to specifying foreground colors without specifying background colors or vice versa: https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20080430/failures.html#F24
15:48:43 <allanj> john: when a new window opens - use off screen text to say that. is that a failure?
15:49:56 <JohnRochford> Marla: Using font color to hide content is poor practice.
15:50:12 <JohnRochford> Marla: and lazy
15:50:20 <steverep> q+
15:51:13 <allanj> ack s
15:52:53 <JohnRochford> Marla: Off screen content is usually a child of another element.
15:54:29 <JohnRochford> Jim: People on the list - do you create your own style sheets?
15:55:19 <JohnRochford> Scott: Essentially, no.
15:55:38 <JohnRochford> Steve: I used to do it, but not any more
15:55:42 <JohnRochford> John: Ditto
15:56:43 <JohnRochford> Jim: Is this that much of an issue that we need to keep beating on it?
15:57:07 <JohnRochford> Steve: Transparency is something we should pursue.
15:57:55 <JohnRochford> Steve: We should concentrate on stuff that breaks most of the time.
15:58:19 <JohnRochford> Laura: Should it be in the adapting text SC?
15:59:16 <JohnRochford> Jim: Happy to leave that SC be, and create a new SC, rather than alter an SC with which people are happy.
15:59:30 <allanj> wayne would say yes that Items that are hidden with color become visible is important.
16:00:18 <laura> Scribe: Laura
16:00:52 <allanj> others on the call felt Items that are hidden with color become visible is less important. and should be a failure of other SC.
16:01:00 <laura> Steve: It is a failure of contrast minimum.
16:01:14 <allanj> topic: The author uses transparent images for controls that depend on the pages background color for visibility
16:01:55 <laura> Jim: is transparency a subset?
16:02:50 <laura> Steve: I don’t think so. It can't be a failure without graphics contrast being a failure.
16:03:09 <laura> …also takes in user interface controls.
16:04:04 <laura> Jim: windows 7 transparency caused issues for LV people
16:04:46 <laura> … How do we say it with an if/then statement
16:05:01 <allanj> transparency is not a binary
16:05:18 <laura> Steve: It is not a binary.
16:05:56 <laura> …author needs to consider the full space.
16:06:51 <allanj> transparency is a range from 0 to 1 (aka alpha channel)
16:06:55 <laura> …come up this alpha channel min and max
16:07:35 <allanj> what is the minimum transparency needed for given test
16:07:44 <laura> …Choose from the full range as long as you compute things correctly
16:08:00 <laura> …I can try to do that.
16:08:58 <laura> Jim: native video controls use a transparent background. Some can disappear.
16:09:17 <laura> …serious issue.
16:09:57 <laura> Scott: need an opacity layer behind the background.
16:10:29 <laura> Jim: parallax issue too.
16:12:43 <laura> …I will reseach
16:12:47 <allanj> I will research transparency
16:13:45 <allanj> media controls contrast http://www.tsbvi.edu/lvtf-video/media-control-contrast.html
16:15:17 <ScottM> I think having any sort of transparency is not a good thing
16:15:55 <laura> Steve: another issue for content authors to deal with.
16:16:31 <laura> Jim: will do some research on this.
16:17:25 <laura>  Steve: same principle as the widget controversy.
16:18:29 <laura> …real problem. More you ask authors to do more variables you get.
16:19:43 <allanj> topic: The author uses sprite taken from the background image.
16:20:00 <allanj> similar to icon fonts.
16:21:37 <allanj> should semantically label role=img and aria-label
16:22:08 <allanj> similar to Use foreground (HTML) image methods such as img / svg, or Fallback of: Identify background images that are content in a semantic way so they can be ignored by the user-agent changes.
16:22:43 <allanj> semantically labeling should be an SC
16:24:41 <laura> Jim: will work on SC language.
16:25:55 <ScottM> Nothing for me
16:29:07 <ScottM> transparency is hard :)
16:29:09 <ScottM> bye
16:29:24 <laura> Jim: Need to translate all this into what content author’s need to do.
16:30:14 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:38:13 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
16:38:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:38:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been JohnRochford, steverep, Laura, erich
16:38:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:38:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/05/04-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:38:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:38:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items